BWitcher Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 Tbh surely it's more likely they could end up paying a hl hl rates for 7 rides ridden from reserve. I very much doubt any hl has a clause where they get reduced pay riding as reserve. Those are my thoughts.. and that is what will cause sheer panic with some promoters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semion Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 What Surprises me is that anyone is surprised by the fact that they have c0cked the whole thing up, and continue to do so. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted April 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 The OP must be one of the most liked ever on the BSF, well done to the BSPA on messing something up so badly that so many agree it's messed up- so badly. So far the only person not agreeing is starman! What Surprises me is that anyone is surprised by the fact that they have c0cked the whole thing up, and continue to do so. Some of us have seen this coming a while. But we're now able to see, "told you so" and allow others to see how damn stupid it is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semion Posted April 22, 2016 Report Share Posted April 22, 2016 Told you so's cut no ice with The all Knowing people who supposedly control the sport. They never get it wrong.... Well Not in their eyes. They just lurch from one mess to the next. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 The OP must be one of the most liked ever on the BSF, well done to the BSPA on messing something up so badly that so many agree it's messed up- so badly. So far the only person not agreeing is starman! Some of us have seen this coming a while. But we're now able to see, "told you so" and allow others to see how damn stupid it is! the likes are just window dressing - the fact that starman disagrees with it really is the gold seal that the OP was spot on! Perhaps thats the way forward - Starman attends the agm and all proposals are put to him. Any he likes are instantly dismissed whilst those he rejects are given further consideration. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy robin Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 What these stupid promotors who voted for this should ask themselves is, has this FDR & race format increased their fan base or driven more away?. I know from fans I used to go with that they don't go anymore & they are the biggest reasons. All the while Kyle Newman has been outshone by Adam Ellis & stays at reserve. Will he ever get a place in the top 5 after how many seasons at reserve?. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 What these stupid promotors who voted for this should ask themselves is, has this FDR & race format increased their fan base or driven more away?. I know from fans I used to go with that they don't go anymore & they are the biggest reasons. All the while Kyle Newman has been outshone by Adam Ellis & stays at reserve. Will he ever get a place in the top 5 after how many seasons at reserve?. You have to remember the fundamental principle of the BSPA (with some exceptions, to be fair) is 'What's in it for me?" Cutting the wage bill by exploiting a pair of kids and claiming it's training is pretty well par for the course. There's no clear, logical forward vision. Yes we want riders to progress, but not this way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BANANAMAN Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 (edited) Countershaftcounter, on 21 Apr 2016 - 9:18 PM, said:Countershaftcounter, on 21 Apr 2016 - 9:18 PM, said:bet the Dane isn't riding for £50 a point ! I posted this on Friday " Hope Paul & Charles flourish in their new team roles but in some meetings I can see them only having 3 rides which in the whole scheme of this aint going to help to further their careers is it ?....Perhaps a couple of BSPA members knew their teams before they had the format agreed . Don't see how a Dane having 6 rides at No7 & a English lad having 3 rides at No2 is good for British Speedway " Starke just 3 rides & 1 point ...... Klindt 7 rides paid 19 .. .. Is this what suppose to happen ? I hope the Dane is not on £50 a point !! Edited April 23, 2016 by BANANAMAN 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrhbig Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 The sad thing is that with all the "rules" made so complicated, people who have not been before can be so confused that they wont bother again, try explaining to a "newbie" the TR/Double points situation, and that's an easy one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 The sad thing is that with all the "rules" made so complicated, people who have not been before can be so confused that they wont bother again, try explaining to a "newbie" the TR/Double points situation, and that's an easy one. It's all become so twisted. Someone comes up with a rule that will benefit themselves. Then someone else gets it amended. Then someone gets a new rule to plug the loophole. Another promoter then realises he's been caught oput and gets the correction amended. You then end up with a tangled, compromised mess with conflicting rules, all based on short-term needs, often dressed-up as 'vision'. I used to be an avid reader of the rulebook but when you look at the team-building regulations, with averages adjusted here, converted from other averages, a few percent deducted here and there in months with a Saturday in them. It just gets ridiculous. Speedway is a simple sport made complex by people trying to shaft their rivals. Sometimes you feel the promoter power game is more important than staging matches. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted April 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 The sad thing is that with all the "rules" made so complicated, people who have not been before can be so confused that they wont bother again, try explaining to a "newbie" the TR/Double points situation, and that's an easy one. It's really not difficult for newbies. "4 riders, 4 laps. Points awarded 3-2-1-0. The riders for the heats are determined by a predefined formula and the team manager puts his riders in the position he thinks will work best for his team. Should a team be 10 points behind and can one time pick any 1 rider in their team to score double points in a single race" Yes you could explain reserves, averages, how an average is calculated, how the heat format adds bias to an average, how it all so massively flawed it bugs those of us who know but DONT. Just DONT! Simply explain what they need to know. If you do want to explain averages just state, "each rider is given an average, this average is his average number if points scored in the last 20 meetings so that people can see how they're performing. These averages are used for signing you team to stop any one team signing the best 7 riders in the World and winning everything - think of it as a draft like they have in American sports" What is confusing is the fans making it confusing most of the time. Yes some rules are weird, off, stupid and even some are confusing but they don't need to be know and won't ruin your enjoyment if you don't know them really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted April 24, 2016 Report Share Posted April 24, 2016 It's all become so twisted. Someone comes up with a rule that will benefit themselves. Then someone else gets it amended. Then someone gets a new rule to plug the loophole. Another promoter then realises he's been caught oput and gets the correction amended. ..... in months with a Saturday in them. 1) A very succinct description of how the rulebook evolves (and also applicable to the Income and Corporation Taxes Acts) 2) Months without Saturdays... maybe this is the BSPA secret plan to remove the malignant influence of BSI and the Grand Prix's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topsoil Posted April 24, 2016 Report Share Posted April 24, 2016 The sad thing is that with all the "rules" made so complicated, people who have not been before can be so confused that they wont bother again, try explaining to a "newbie" the TR/Double points situation, and that's an easy one. If I took a "newbie" along to a meeting, as I did last season, The last thing I would want to do is fill their head full of FDR, tactical rides, averages, guests, rider replacement, just let them enjoy the racing, the speed, the noise, the danger element. If they enjoy the basic racing element, the company they are with and a nights entertainment they will return. Too many speedway fans get hung up about rules, statistics, loopholes. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted April 24, 2016 Report Share Posted April 24, 2016 1) A very succinct description of how the rulebook evolves (and also applicable to the Income and Corporation Taxes Acts) 2) Months without Saturdays... maybe this is the BSPA secret plan to remove the malignant influence of BSI and the Grand Prix's. The difference in case 1 is that professionals are in charge of the finance acts ;-) Re 2 - I was hoping to make the point that the clauses and counter-clauses in the rule book verge on the absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcatdiary Posted April 24, 2016 Report Share Posted April 24, 2016 It's obvious that this heat formula reduces the club's wages bill, I can think of no other logical reason why it's still here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted April 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2016 It's obvious that this heat formula reduces the club's wages bill, I can think of no other logical reason why it's still here. It did when it kept reserves in reserve. But now second strings and heat leaders are going to be dropping to reserve it's going to be a disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted April 24, 2016 Report Share Posted April 24, 2016 It's really not difficult for newbies. "4 riders, 4 laps. Points awarded 3-2-1-0. The riders for the heats are determined by a predefined formula and the team manager puts his riders in the position he thinks will work best for his team. Should a team be 10 points behind and can one time pick any 1 rider in their team to score double points in a single race" Yes you could explain reserves, averages, how an average is calculated, how the heat format adds bias to an average, how it all so massively flawed it bugs those of us who know but DONT. Just DONT! Simply explain what they need to know. If you do want to explain averages just state, "each rider is given an average, this average is his average number if points scored in the last 20 meetings so that people can see how they're performing. These averages are used for signing you team to stop any one team signing the best 7 riders in the World and winning everything - think of it as a draft like they have in American sports" What is confusing is the fans making it confusing most of the time. Yes some rules are weird, off, stupid and even some are confusing but they don't need to be know and won't ruin your enjoyment if you don't know them really. Absolutely spot on. The points system in county cricket is far, far more complicated than Speedwáy but it doesn't put people off. The scoring system in boxing is a closed book to most fans but it doesn't stop new ones from going. Thousands watch football without really understanding the offside rule and thousands enjoy cricket without knowing the detail of the LBW rule. It frustrates me that the things that are speedways real problems are things that most fans barely comment on. Instead their complaints revolve round what are more frequently their own misunderstandings. It did when it kept reserves in reserve. But now second strings and heat leaders are going to be dropping to reserve it's going to be a disaster. Surely we keep coming back to the point that to many EDR riders are too good for the scheme. Not only Garrity but riders like Newman, S. Worrall, Howarth etc are too good for the scheme. They are good enough to take the Richie Worrall type route via the PL , rather than just being handed th place. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCOGNITO Posted April 24, 2016 Report Share Posted April 24, 2016 Lining the pockets has been the biggest reason this format came in but under the name of being cost effective for clubs. Top grade riders having harder rides would no longer be scoring 10 plus on £200 a point while reserves would be scoring 8 or 10 instead of 4 or 5 at £50+ a point. Trouble is that it messes up averages and a five point rider will now average more than a GP register due to the rides they face. This wasn't liked by the big guns so now they have allowed reserves to move up and possibly the likes of Holder or Kasprzak or Zagar moving to the eeasier rides and getting more money. Next season they must switch to grading riders and get rid of the averages otherwise riders over scoring what they should be will find themselves unable to find a team. Now they are letting from May 1st teams sign extra heat leaders as long as they are still under the points limit. So a team that has heat leaders starting badly could sign new heat leaders at the expense of an over achieving second string. Scrap the format and restrictions on team lay out and get some creditability back to the new fans trying to understand why a rider scoring 5 is in the GP's and not the reserve scoring 10 plus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 Why don't they only take the relevant races into consideration when calculating these averages ie just rides against 2nd strings. If I were the BSPA I would now go back to last season and do this for the ftrs and put them back at reserve where they belong. Probs same with heat leaders and second strings ...... get it right before we go on any further with this season ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted April 25, 2016 Report Share Posted April 25, 2016 (edited) The issue isn't with the race format per se , which encourages closer racing. The problem is the issues, which were patently obvious as soon as the format was announced, with impacts on rider averages were not addressed at the time, and have still not been. A relatively simple conversion depending on whether a rider has raced at hl, 2nd string or reserve would eliminate the problem. Edited April 25, 2016 by waihekeaces1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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