15 Metre Gold Double Tac Sub

[SCB]

Why did they get rid of it? I think I can remember everyone I ever saw, the rider in the the heat and the effect it had on the meeting because it was so great watching a rider trying to come from 15 metres.

 

You had 4 possible outcomes basically.

1. Opposition rider tries it, opposition rider succeeds, you just seen a great rider where a rider has had to come form 4th. Brilliant, well done.

2. Opposition rider tries it, opposition rider fails. You laugh, hahaha he's not as good as he thinks.

3. Your rider tries it, he fails. Ah well, nothing lost, the reserve or second string he replaced was going to come last anyway.

4. Your rider tries it. Your rider wins! WEHAY! What a hero, you go mad.

 

I've seen all 4 and all 4 lead to various memories. Newport doing it at Swindon in heat 11 against a heat leader and getting the 8-1 then going on to win (Newport couldn't win at home so to win away was a shock!) after some mouthy Swindon fan giving us rubbish up to then. He skulked off when Wato come form 15 metres I've seen Chris Harris do it at Swindon too but also "fail" a couple of times (he still got 2nd so fail is harsh)

 

I remember Carl Stonehewer doing it at Newport, catching the two Newport riders by bend 3, diving under them through the infamous Newport 3rd bend crater and ended up in the fence and having the mother of all strops and stomping up to the referees box. But also remember the greta Moggo doing it for Stoke at Newport and getting the 6 points and the Newport fans giving him quite a cheer for it - despite being the opposition.

 

Bring back the 15 metre gold double tac sub!

[Star Lady]

My aged memory seems to remember rumours that riders didn't like it cos it was harder work and they got no extra for it, but I could be going senile

 

I agree bring it back at least extra effort has to be put in to justify double points. Wearing a black and white tablecloth to get double points for stuff all is a waste of time

[BWitcher]

Certain riders refused to do it.

 

Jason Crump was certainly one, refusing it when guesting for Wolves.

 

Peter Karlsson, quite the opposite, can remember him doing it on numerous occasions!

 

You're right though, was very entertaining.

[SCB]

So certain riders refused to do it. I refuse to jump out of a plane but I don't propose stopping those that want to do it from doing it. I refuse to watch the only way is essex but I don't see them removing it from the tele because I don't like it. Bring it back and anyone who doesn't want to do it can have that discussion with their team manager when the time comes. Meanwhile those who want "do it for the fans" can do!

[Reviresco]

So certain riders refused to do it. I refuse to jump out of a plane but I don't propose stopping those that want to do it from doing it. I refuse to watch the only way is essex but I don't see them removing it from the tele because I don't like it. Bring it back and anyone who doesn't want to do it can have that discussion with their team manager when the time comes. Meanwhile those who want "do it for the fans" can do!

 

That makes sense to me, SCB, and very well put. As has been said on many other threads, speedway in Britain is suffering a slow lingering death and is 'Boring', well this facility certainly used to put some 'spice' into a meeting and revved up the crowd a bit. Let's face it, anything to create an extra element of excitement, spectacle and entertainment must be a good idea.

 

The danger element may be a consideration of course, in an already dangerous sport. I believe that some reports on the incident that led to the death of Peter Craven were that he started off a handicap in that fateful race at the Old Meadowbank stadium, all the way back in September 1963, but most accounts now suggest that he did line up alongside the other riders, but deliberately dropped his clutch after the other riders had left the gate, with the intention of "putting on a show" by cutting his way through the field.

 

We cannot compare speedway to other sports, but I remember witnessing 'live' on TV, the terrible crash that took the life of Britain's Dan Wheldon at Los Angeles Motor Speedway in October 2011. Wheldon had agreed to start the 200 lap race at the back of the 34 strong grid, to attempt to win a $5m prize and, as Dan said himself, to "put on a show".

 

Would these type of precedents, be reason for your suggestion to not even let the idea be considered again?

[Robert Lee]

Why did they get rid of it? I think I can remember everyone I ever saw, the rider in the the heat and the effect it had on the meeting because it was so great watching a rider trying to come from 15 metres....

 

 

I can't remember how it worked (not because it was so long ago, but 'cos I'm at an age where I can recall what happened half a century ago, but not what I was doing yesterday, or what I was saying 2 minutes ago).

 

Now, where was I? Oh yes, I was going to ask whether they got double points. If so, I'm all for it. As firm opponent of giving them double points just for riding a normal (un-handicapped) race, I say let them earn their double points.

 

As for why "they" got rid of it, it's because they are the BSPA, and they wouldn't know a good rule if it jumped up and bit them.

[SCB]

But someone always has to go into the bend in 4th so I'm not sure it's a safety thing tbh. And if it was an issue you wouldn't be allowed to go off 15 metres when you touched the tapes.

 

 

It worked that back then you could put any rider in any race when you were 6 behind for normal points. the GD was you could put any rider in any race where you were 6 behind but he started 15 metres back and scored double points. The idea being that double points were earned.

 

I say have one TR as now but then have 2 15 metre TRs per team too - we'll soon see the riders who have the balls to do it and those who don't!

[BWitcher]

But someone always has to go into the bend in 4th so I'm not sure it's a safety thing tbh. And if it was an issue you wouldn't be allowed to go off 15 metres when you touched the tapes.

 

 

It worked that back then you could put any rider in any race when you were 6 behind for normal points. the GD was you could put any rider in any race where you were 6 behind but he started 15 metres back and scored double points. The idea being that double points were earned.

 

I say have one TR as now but then have 2 15 metre TRs per team too - we'll soon see the riders who have the balls to do it and those who don't!

 

I've never grasped the safety aspect.. surely the most dangerous part of a race is the 1st turn, if you are starting 15 metres back you're avoiding that potential carnage!

[daveallan81]

How would all that fit in with the current EL 'protected' heat formula?

[Triple.H.]

I remember, though it wasn't in a GO race Steve Johnson at Oxford being handicapped 15M for tape touching, then being handicapped a further 10M for moving at the start in the rerun. Surely that shouldve been adjudged a 2nd starting offence so an exclusion, but Johnno went out and won the race and the stadium erupted with cheering and applause.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Triple.H.

[SCB]

How would all that fit in with the current EL 'protected' heat formula?

You dont NEED a protected system. Who is it protecting? Tonight Swindons EDR rider is riding as a heat leader FFS! Scrap the heat format, bring back 15 metre double points.

[Reviresco]

But someone always has to go into the bend in 4th so I'm not sure it's a safety thing tbh. And if it was an issue you wouldn't be allowed to go off 15 metres when you touched the tapes.

 

 

 

I've never grasped the safety aspect.. surely the most dangerous part of a race is the 1st turn, if you are starting 15 metres back you're avoiding that potential carnage!

 

Yep, both good points. I have no idea, and I am unsure of the relevance here, and I'm not arguing against you BWitcher, but I wonder how many of the really bad injuries and, dare I say, fatalities in speedway meetings have been on the 1st turn of the 1st lap, compared to how many have occurred elsewhere in a race?

 

Again, I do not know the facts, but I do not believe Peter Craven's fatal accident happened on the first bend and, indeed, it was as a result of another rider, Edinburgh's George Hunter, suffering an engine failure that led to him falling and Craven attempting to avoid Hunter and his bike, that led to Craven hitting the fence, resulting in injuries that led to his passing four days later.

 

I am not old enough to remember handicap races in speedway, so this is the only similar scenario that I have to offer a comparison. I have attended the 16 Lapper at Foxhall on a number of occasions and, again most of the incidents that I can recall were not straight after the gate, but deeper into the race, with a faster 'handicapped' rider attempting to pass a slower rider starting off the gate. The one speedway fatality that I was unfortunate enough to be present to witness, was not on the first lap of that particular race.

 

Due to the relative acceleration and gear ratios between all four bikes off the line, I would have thought it unlikely that the rider off the 15m 'handicap' would be within 5m of the other riders entering turn 1. The proximity of the riders would occur, later on in the four laps. As I said in my previous post, I am a supporter of SCB's proposal, and only suggested a reason why it may not be considered for approval.

 

We might expect the 'better' riders who are carrying extra speed, should be able to pass an/other rider/s cleanly and safely - unless of course, today's 'rocket ships' are too difficult to manoeuvre safely and that the 'better' riders are just too used to simply 'gating and going' and are unused to overtaking, or only being able to pass their peers, on the occasions that they have been out-gated but have the speed and gearing to make a pass, rather than being used to overtaking a three rider mix of abilities?

Edited April 21, 2016 by macca56

[Daniel Smith]

I wasn't that keen on the Golden Double.

I much prefer the standard Tactical Substitute from the tapes i.e. Polish rules. No double bubble at all but I suppose it's not cost affective in the current EL.

 

Isn't it in Poland if you're more than 6 behind you can make the tactical 3 times but not with the same rider?

[SCB]

I wasn't that keen on the Golden Double.

I much prefer the standard Tactical Substitute from the tapes i.e. Polish rules. No double bubble at all but I suppose it's not cost affective in the current EL.

 

Isn't it in Poland if you're more than 6 behind you can make the tactical 3 times but not with the same rider?

Yeah but using the old format you get to heat 8 and a team sticks out there top 2 against the #2 and #7 who pop out the start and go. So what? Yet with a GDTS you put one from the tapes and one form 15 metres. The one form the tapes trys to get in the way as the one at the back has to make 2 passes to get the points. I doubt anyone ever watched a heat with a GDTS and thought, "well that was boring" but many a TS has been won for the gate over the years.

[steve roberts]

 

 

 

Yep, both good points. I have no idea, and I am unsure of the relevance here, and I'm not arguing against you BWitcher, but I wonder how many of the really bad injuries and, dare I say, fatalities in speedway meetings have been on the 1st turn of the 1st lap, compared to how many have occurred elsewhere in a race?

 

Again, I do not know the facts, but I do not believe Peter Craven's fatal accident happened on the first bend and, indeed, it was as a result of another rider, Edinburgh's George Hunter, suffering an engine failure that led to him falling and Craven attempting to avoid Hunter and his bike, that led to Craven hitting the fence, resulting in injuries that led to his passing four days later.

 

I am not old enough to remember handicap races in speedway, so this is the only similar scenario that I have to offer a comparison. I have attended the 16 Lapper at Foxhall on a number of occasions and, again most of the incidents that I can recall were not straight after the gate, but deeper into the race, with a faster 'handicapped' rider attempting to pass a slower rider starting off the gate. The one speedway fatality that I was unfortunate enough to be present to witness, was not on the first lap of that particular race.

 

Due to the relative acceleration and gear ratios between all four bikes off the line, I would have thought it unlikely that the rider off the 15m 'handicap' would be within 5m of the other riders entering turn 1. The proximity of the riders would occur, later on in the four laps. As I said in my previous post, I am a supporter of SCB's proposal, and only suggested a reason why it may not be considered for approval.

 

We might expect the 'better' riders who are carrying extra speed, should be able to pass an/other rider/s cleanly and safely - unless of course, today's 'rocket ships' are too difficult to manoeuvre safely and that the 'better' riders are just too used to simply 'gating and going' and are unused to overtaking, or only being able to pass their peers, on the occasions that they have been out-gated but have the speed and gearing to make a pass, rather than being used to overtaking a three rider mix of abilities?

Interesting article regarding the Peter Craven crash in the latest edition of 'Classic Magazine' (another superb magazine) where one time Edinburgh and Berwick rider Ian Paterson quotes:

 

"There had been a bit of needle before they (Craven & Hunter) went out for the race. Hoskins was saying that Craven had to start off a 20 yard handicap but George didn't want any advantage handed to him, so he wanted to start level with Peter"

 

"I'm not sure if those two started behind the other two in the race or whether all four started from the line, but Hunter and Craven definitely started alongside each other. Those two were so far ahead of the others when the crash happened. They say that Hunter's bike seized but I didn't think so...and I think that George just overdid it going into the corner"

 

"His bike went down but then it started spinning around. Peter definitely had enough time to lay his bike down but he must have thought that he could go through the gap (between Hunter's bike and the wooden board safety fence). Trouble was, the gap shut on him at the wrong bloody time. It looked bad. But not horrendous."

 

Personally never a fan of 'handicap' racing. During the early sixties it was decided that the 'Big Four' (Fundin, Briggs, Craven and Knutson) would be handicapped to add 'excitement' to the proceedings before 'Briggo' threatened to retire if the system wasn't dropped.

Edited April 22, 2016 by steve roberts

[FAST GATER]

You dont NEED a protected system. Who is it protecting? Tonight Swindons EDR rider is riding as a heat leader FFS! Scrap the heat format, bring back 15 metre double points.

If it gets rid of EDR I'm for it

Interesting article regarding the Peter Craven crash in the latest edition of 'Classic Magazine' (another superb magazine) where one time Edinburgh and Berwick rider Ian Paterson quotes:

 

"There had been a bit of needle before they (Craven & Hunter) went out for the race. Hoskins was saying that Craven had to start off a 20 yard handicap but George didn't want any advantage handed to him, so he wanted to start level with Peter"

 

"I'm not sure if those two started behind the other two in the race or whether all four started from the line, but Hunter and Craven definitely started alongside each other. Those two were so far ahead of the others when the crash happened. They say that Hunter's bike seized but I didn't think so...and I think that George just overdid it going into the corner"

 

"His bike went down but then it started spinning around. Peter definitely had enough time to lay his bike down but he must have thought that he could go through the gap (between Hunter's bike and the wooden board safety fence). Trouble was, the gap shut on him at the wrong bloody time. It looked bad. But not horrendous."

That's how I was always told the crash happened nothing to do with handicap system ,IMO the GDTS was scrapped at the riders request( I believe Briggs threaten to retire if the handicap system was not banned in his day)just like the handicap system they say it puts more stress on the engines.

[steve roberts]

If it gets rid of EDR I'm for it

That's how I was always told the crash happened nothing to do with handicap system ,IMO the GDTS was scrapped at the riders request( I believe Briggs threaten to retire if the handicap system was not banned in his day)just like the handicap system they say it puts more stress on the engines.

Just updated my post!

[Gresham]

Re the Peter Craven Crash...surely there is definitive detail as to what happened in that race?

 

It would have been documented at the time...and plenty of eye witnesses.

 

Hunter would have said whether he had engine failure or lost control...surely?

 

I can't believe it's so hazy...Any thoughts?

[ouch]

It became pointless the more tracks and machines became gate and go unfortunately.

[George Dodds]

My aged memory seems to remember rumours that riders didn't like it cos it was harder work and they got no extra for it, but I could be going senile

 

I agree bring it back at least extra effort has to be put in to justify double points. Wearing a black and white tablecloth to get double points for stuff all is a waste of time

Daft, but genuine, question, but does the rider not get paid for six points instead of three?