BWitcher Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 Yes it was easier...from a distance, with the amount of advertising on the suits, added to the mass of colours on the bike covers...then it becomes just a blur of different colours. Plain and simple...is both striking and outstanding from a distance. Of course 'results' matter but not at the expense of other parts of the sport. 'The overwhelming majority of fans' left, who care mainly about the result...are the minority of the ones who have walked away from the sport, because results at all costs are a major factor to why attendances are dropping. This is why promoters don't listen to fans, when they come out with nonsense like this. There is absolutely no way that it was 'easier' to identify from a distance which team was which when all they had were race jackets compared to now with team kevlars. It's obvious at a glance now. Back in the day, you would be going off the helmet color. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 When Swindon were in the PL, the PL was MUCH more interesting than the EL. Now Swindon are in the EL, the EL is MUCH more interesting than the PL. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 When Swindon were in the PL, the PL was MUCH more interesting than the EL. Now Swindon are in the EL, the EL is MUCH more interesting than the PL. Sums it up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 This is why promoters don't listen to fans, when they come out with nonsense like this. There is absolutely no way that it was 'easier' to identify from a distance which team was which when all they had were race jackets compared to now with team kevlars. It's obvious at a glance now. Back in the day, you would be going off the helmet color. I'd beg to differ...that's my experience and many I have watched speedway with. Visually...there is way too much going on. Combine four riders in multi coloured kevlars, and a flurry of bike covers, that are also different colours...and it is indeed harder to pic out. Four riders in black leathers and just chrome bikes...you could easily pick out the colour of race jacket and helmet colour...because that was the only bright colours. I'm not saying to go back to black leathers...but less is often more. Perhaps if Promotors did start listening to fans rather than riders...we wouldn't have the dwindling crowds. How you think seeing a mass of different colours, covered in sponsors, racing at speed is easier to define, than a bold race jacket on simple contrasting kevlars is beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 I'd beg to differ...that's my experience and many I have watched speedway with. Visually...there is way too much going on. Combine four riders in multi coloured kevlars, and a flurry of bike covers, that are also different colours...and it is indeed harder to pic out. Four riders in black leathers and just chrome bikes...you could easily pick out the colour of race jacket and helmet colour...because that was the only bright colours. I'm not saying to go back to black leathers...but less is often more. Perhaps if Promotors did start listening to fans rather than riders...we wouldn't have the dwindling crowds. How you think seeing a mass of different colours, covered in sponsors, racing at speed is easier to define, than a bold race jacket on simple contrasting kevlars is beyond me. The bottom line in TEAM speedway is that the home team are in red and blue helmet covers and the away team in white Yellow/black which is all that is needed IMO . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavan Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 When Swindon were in the PL, the PL was MUCH more interesting than the EL. Now Swindon are in the EL, the EL is MUCH more interesting than the PL. Yes and no. I would never have said i would have liked premier league racing if you had of asked me 15-20 years ago. Ipswich were in the top league and seeing the world stars at Foxhall every week was just fantastic. We had quite possibly the best team ever assembled in the top league (bar Cradley) and yes we won everything but i went to less meetings s the racing was a lot of the time processional and we knew we would win every week before the start. I picked and chose my meetings and im sure others did to. Then when we were struggling recently in the elite league i again picked and chose my meetings based on if i thought it might be close rather than seeing a thrashing. Now in the premier league i cant go so much anyway due to family and work but the racing i see now is far better than what it was when we was in the latter days of being in the elite league. There is no set answer as to why people dont go so much. The lack of stars has to be one of the reasons and also location has to be another. In a lot of speedway towns there is football clubs( sometimes 2 or 3), rugby clubs even ice skating teams this has to have an impact. We hear it all the time but there isnt any other sport in Poole for their fans to go and watch, its a speedway town. Of course whatever league your team is in you will find more interesting thats obvious, but right now the elite league is so watered down and full of internal crap that im more than happy to be in the premier I'd beg to differ...that's my experience and many I have watched speedway with. Visually...there is way too much going on. Combine four riders in multi coloured kevlars, and a flurry of bike covers, that are also different colours...and it is indeed harder to pic out. Four riders in black leathers and just chrome bikes...you could easily pick out the colour of race jacket and helmet colour...because that was the only bright colours. I'm not saying to go back to black leathers...but less is often more. Perhaps if Promotors did start listening to fans rather than riders...we wouldn't have the dwindling crowds. How you think seeing a mass of different colours, covered in sponsors, racing at speed is easier to define, than a bold race jacket on simple contrasting kevlars is beyond me. Have to say i find it strange you say that. Surely now its easier to pick out teams in the same suits?? I dont care either way in fact i possibly preferred it when each rider was in his own leathers rather than all the same but for a newcomer it has to be far simpler surely to have the same suits?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 I'd beg to differ...that's my experience and many I have watched speedway with. Visually...there is way too much going on. Combine four riders in multi coloured kevlars, and a flurry of bike covers, that are also different colours...and it is indeed harder to pic out. Four riders in black leathers and just chrome bikes...you could easily pick out the colour of race jacket and helmet colour...because that was the only bright colours. I'm not saying to go back to black leathers...but less is often more. Perhaps if Promotors did start listening to fans rather than riders...we wouldn't have the dwindling crowds. How you think seeing a mass of different colours, covered in sponsors, racing at speed is easier to define, than a bold race jacket on simple contrasting kevlars is beyond me. You can beg to differ all you like, but you are talking absolute utter garbage. There aren't four riders in 'multi coloured' leathers. There are two riders wearing one teams leathers, two others wearing the other teams. Very simple. Immediately easy to pick out. Without helmet colours, looking at a rider side on with just a race jacket you have no idea who he races for if you're not a fan who can identify them by the bike etc. It's not even an argument that its easier to identify teams when they are racing in team leathers. Next you'll be telling us football teams shouldn't wear strips, they should all wear whatever they like but have a jacket strapped to them with their club logo on their chest. Make it nice and bold, sure it will be much easier to identify who they play for and everyone will be happy in the stands and on TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 Team colours make teams easier to identify. Team colours make riders harder to identify. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Nicki Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 In a lot of speedway towns there is football clubs( sometimes 2 or 3), rugby clubs even ice skating teams this has to have an impact. We hear it all the time but there isnt any other sport in Poole for their fans to go and watch, its a speedway town. Have to say i find it strange you say that. Surely now its easier to pick out teams in the same suits?? I dont care either way in fact i possibly preferred it when each rider was in his own leathers rather than all the same but for a newcomer it has to be far simpler surely to have the same suits?? Ice skating teams? That sounds a fun sport. With a successful Premier League football team just down the road, it will be interesting to see if that has an impact on attendances at Wimpborne Road. Both Ipswich and King's Lynn have struggled to get their 1 - 7 in the same race-suits this season and, to be honest, look ridiculous. Maybe its just me, but always seemed to be able to identify riders by different riding styles and positions on the track. Could always identify a rider in the 70's/80's/90's by his leathers too. With only four riders on the track at a time, it shouldn't be too difficult to id each one, race-suits or no race-suits, be you a newbie or not. Even though it was done for a' good reason', when the SGP riders all wore Darcy suits I thought it made for more difficult identification. As Grachan says, race-suits make teams easier to identify, but harder to identify individual riders. Just my opinion of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 Team colours make teams easier to identify. Team colours make riders harder to identify. Totally agree. A large part of me misses the individual leathers riders would wear, I won't deny that. However.. and perhaps this is part of the point that Gresham is making, team leathers have to be done right. As the post above says, it looks silly when 5 riders in the team are in team colours and 2 other riders aren't... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 You can beg to differ all you like, but you are talking absolute utter garbage. There aren't four riders in 'multi coloured' leathers. There are two riders wearing one teams leathers, two others wearing the other teams. Very simple. Immediately easy to pick out. Without helmet colours, looking at a rider side on with just a race jacket you have no idea who he races for if you're not a fan who can identify them by the bike etc. It's not even an argument that its easier to identify teams when they are racing in team leathers. Next you'll be telling us football teams shouldn't wear strips, they should all wear whatever they like but have a jacket strapped to them with their club logo on their chest. Make it nice and bold, sure it will be much easier to identify who they play for and everyone will be happy in the stands and on TV. well so am i cos i agree with him - race suits much too busy - a simple body colour much better however - hardly worth arguing about really - just an opinion and wont make a ha'porth of difference to things 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 well so am i cos i agree with him - race suits much too busy - a simple body colour much better however - hardly worth arguing about really - just an opinion and wont make a ha'porth of difference to things You are. It's not an opinion either over which is 'easier' to see which is what the debate is about. Unless you're claiming a small area on somebodys chest is easier to see than the whole person! Preferring one over the other is opinion but that isn't the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 always a pleasure 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 For me, the Premier League is a far more competitive competition and the rider's actually seem to care more about who's their watching them. In the EL, rider's turn up, race then p!$$ off without a care. That's the biggest difference Saying that the EL still has a place but it now needs to change & the PL needs to accommodate those changes. An idea:- Elite League 10 teams 8 rider squads 5 rider teams 40.00 Team Average (ex bonus points) 13 heats No Guests or RR (IRR allowed) 9 fixtures per season (so like 6 nations rugby where fixtures alternate the following year) 5 Month Calendar (April > August) inc play-off's (Top 4) & final Fixtures to be ridden Monday's only (TV) Premier League North / South 10 rider squads 7 rider teams 45 Team Average (inc bonus points) 15 heats Home & Away once Current EL only rider averages weighted +15% Wednesday, Thursday, Friday race days only Riders competing in Polish Ekstraliga / Swedish Elitserien / Danish Speedway Liga leagues with averages over 6.00 from previous season excluded Top 2 from each region in the Play-offs March > October season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 You are. It's not an opinion either over which is 'easier' to see which is what the debate is about. Unless you're claiming a small area on somebodys chest is easier to see than the whole person! Preferring one over the other is opinion but that isn't the issue. We will have to agree to disagree then. I'd love to post pictures as evidence...but it seems this forum doesn't allow you to do this...even links to pictures? But look at any picture of riders racing now...and it is 'just too busy' as CH958 implied... look at pictures of racing from the 70's and 80's where Race jackets were simple and defined and not blocked out by handlebar covers...and it was very easy to pick out who was riding for who. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) We will have to agree to disagree then. I'd love to post pictures as evidence...but it seems this forum doesn't allow you to do this...even links to pictures? But look at any picture of riders racing now...and it is 'just too busy' as CH958 implied... look at pictures of racing from the 70's and 80's where Race jackets were simple and defined and not blocked out by handlebar covers...and it was very easy to pick out who was riding for who. There isn't anything to disagree with. You're wrong. Period. You're still wittering on about a race jacket, something which covers their chest. The detail of which you barely see when riders are racing some distance from you, and more often than not you are seeing the side or back of them so the detail on the racejacket is irrelevant anyway. The very fact you still are talking about 'picking out' shows how wrong you are... There is no picking out involved when team suits are used. It's immediately apparent which team is which no matter where they are on the track, no matter what angle you are looking from. You don't have to wait till you 'pick' out a logo on their chest! Photos won't prove a thing, a nice still image when you can 'pick out' the race jacket. Speedway riders aren't nice and still, nor are they zoomed in on when you are looking from the terraces. If you want to go there with photos though, it will only harm your cause. Scenario.. photo of four riders two in the lead where you could 'pick out' their race jackets, two behind obscured, you can only see parts of their legs and their arms. With race jackets obscured you don't know who is on what team (ignoring helmet colors for the moment). With team leathers, you'd still identify them straight away. Simples. Edited April 13, 2016 by BWitcher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 The team I supported (Oxford) appeared regularly in either league (in whatever guise) during the period I use to follow speedway so I had a good incite as regard the then different disciplines. 1972-75 (British League One) 1976-83 (National League) 1984-1992 (British League) 1993-94 (Premier League) 1995-1996 (One combined League) 1997 (Premier League) 1998 -2003 (Elite League) Also the Oxford Cubs occasionally ran in the 'Junior' League....think I got that little lot right? Personally I always preferred the 'upper' league until later when the GP came along and decimated it! However we did have some good seasons in the 'lower' league and the racing was exceptional on occasions. If I chose to go back to speedway (which is unlikely) my chosen league would be the second tier...but with less foreigners! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) There isn't anything to disagree with. You're wrong. Period. You're still wittering on about a race jacket, something which covers their chest. The detail of which you barely see when riders are racing some distance from you, and more often than not you are seeing the side or back of them so the detail on the racejacket is irrelevant anyway. The very fact you still are talking about 'picking out' shows how wrong you are... There is no picking out involved when team suits are used. It's immediately apparent which team is which no matter where they are on the track, no matter what angle you are looking from. You don't have to wait till you 'pick' out a logo on their chest! Photos won't prove a thing, a nice still image when you can 'pick out' the race jacket. Speedway riders aren't nice and still, nor are they zoomed in on when you are looking from the terraces. If you want to go there with photos though, it will only harm your cause. Scenario.. photo of four riders two in the lead where you could 'pick out' their race jackets, two behind obscured, you can only see parts of their legs and their arms. With race jackets obscured you don't know who is on what team (ignoring helmet colors for the moment). With team leathers, you'd still identify them straight away. Simples. Blimey...keep your knickers on... Like I said, we can agree to disagree. You obviously find it easier...Whilst myself and others find it easier to pick riders out, who aren't adorned in lots of sponsors and a multitude of colours. I've watched Speedway since the mid 70's...and since the introduction of more sponsorship on kevlars, often smaller club emblem and bike and handlebar covers adorned with sponsorship and colour, it has for many I know, been harder to follow a race. So I'm afraid you are wrong PERIOD...very wrong...as you can't speak for everyone. Some obviously prefer it...but not everyone. I like the way you find a word like 'pick' to back up your argument though. 'Pick' was obviously the wrong term to use...perhaps 'STAND OUT' would have been better. I'd love to back up my thoughts with photos...but it seems this forum doesn't let you upload pics or put links to them. I've asked this three times on this forum...with never any reply. Is it like the Masons...do I need some secret handshake to get accepted and allowed to use such features? The options are there...but they won't work for me. A quick question...you don't own the company that supplies kevlars to teams do you? Edit...I tried to add some smilies and emotions...but it won't even let me do that...all very odd. Edited April 13, 2016 by Gresham 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon Hammer Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 Blimey...keep your knickers on... Like I said, we can agree to disagree. You obviously find it easier...Whilst myself and others find it easier to pick riders out, who aren't adorned in lots of sponsors and a multitude of colours. I've watched Speedway since the mid 70's...and since the introduction of more sponsorship on kevlars, often smaller club emblem and bike and handlebar covers adorned with sponsorship and colour, it has for many I know, been harder to follow a race. So I'm afraid you are wrong PERIOD...very wrong...as you can't speak for everyone. Some obviously prefer it...but not everyone. I like the way you find a word like 'pick' to back up your argument though. 'Pick' was obviously the wrong term to use...perhaps 'STAND OUT' would have been better. I'd love to back up my thoughts with photos...but it seems this forum doesn't let you upload pics or put links to them. I've asked this three times on this forum...with never any reply. Is it like the Masons...do I need some secret handshake to get accepted and allowed to use such features? The options are there...but they won't work for me. A quick question...you don't own the company that supplies kevlars to teams do you? Edit...I tried to add some smilies and emotions...but it won't even let me do that...all very odd. WRONG, FACT, PERIOD, END OF 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gresham Posted April 13, 2016 Report Share Posted April 13, 2016 WRONG, FACT, PERIOD, END OF God damn you FH...how did you get to use a smillie?...I'm tres jealous. ( Insert laughing happy emotion for effect ) How many fingers are you using in that handshake...I'm obviously doing something wrong ;-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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