Polish Horror Crash On Sunday-they Both Walked Away

[Starman2006]

So to confirm, I'm a speedway rider I have an engine failure. Rather than pulling onto the centre green I should roll around on the racing line, possibly even come to a stop on the racing line. That's all fine then? If someone hits me they're excluded?

 

So what if a rider is right behind me and I just shut off? Who's fault?

Your not likely to shut of for no reason are you. That happened so quickly and under the letter of the ref Dudek should have been excluded for causing the stoppage.

[BWitcher]

Got to love starman. Thats two folk hes argued with now that agree that dudek should be excluded.

[SCB]

Your not likely to shut of for no reason are you. That happened so quickly and under the letter of the ref Dudek should have been excluded for causing the stoppage.

You see, I'm a bit of a prick. So if shutting off and having someone tun into me gets them excluded I'm going to do it! Call it team riding if you like.

[Little Nicki]

Got to love starman. Thats two folk hes argued with now that agree that dudek should be excluded.

 

I don't think he realises yet that Kildemand was excluded and Dudek was allowed in the re-run.

 

You see, I'm a bit of a prick. So if shutting off and having someone tun into me gets them excluded I'm going to do it! Call it team riding if you like.

 

But you couldn't guarantee that riders behind you would run into you as Kildemand did (both NKI and KK avoided Dudek in this instance), so if you did shut off when in front and they avoided you, then you would certainly look a pr1ck - or more of a pr1ck than you already were for shutting off deliberately.

[Derwent]

I think this is one of those situations where common sense should prevail.

 

For example, we've all seen scenarios where a rider has hit a rut mid-bend and lost control but managed to regain it and stay upright. However, the loss of control has caused someone behind to lay the bike down or take evasive action where they've come off the bike. Technically the rider behind has caused the stoppage by parting company with his bike, but common sense tells you that the primary cause was the rider in front who lost control and he should be excluded. I think most people would accept and agree with that.

 

Therefore, in this case I think Dudek should have gone as his EF was the primary cause of the stoppage regardless of the sequence of events that followed.

[Gavan]

Is this debate still rumbling on???

 

Dudek had an engine failure. The primary cause of the stoppage was his engine failure its not rocket science. The secondary cause was Kildemand being unsighted and hitting him.

 

By the way some people are talking is that if you get an engine failure you just cruise round on the racing line hoping someone smacks into you. Then the person that smacks into you is excluded and you can get in the re-run!!

 

Im sure some people dont actually watch the sport or have no idea.

someone having an engine failure does not cause a race to be stopped,

someone crashing into someone else because they are not aware of what is happening in front of them does stop a race.

the fact that dudek was clearly signalling from the exit of bend 4 and trying to keep out of the way shows kildemand was not aware or looking, he is a reckless rider at the best of times imo, he even moved over more to the right which made it worse, and you can see him lift his head at the last second. pk rightly excluded.

you need to understand the sport a bit more then if you believe that the engine failure wasnt the PRIMARY cause of the stoppage.

 

just answer me one question. Who should have been excluded if the rider in 2nd hit Dudek as he was closer?

 

Understand the term primary cause of the stoppage and then you will understand why Kildemand shouldnt have been excluded.

 

Of course Kildemand wasnt aware he couldnt see!! He pulled out to get a faster line into the bend or do you simply think he intentionally raced into another rider at full speed???

 

I also believe Kildemand can be reckless but that has no bearing on this incident!

 

If Dudek didnt have an engine failure would the race have been stopped?? No, so therefore his engine failure led to the stoppage thus making him the primary cause

[Stoke Potter]

 

 

Im sure some people dont actually watch the sport or have no idea.

Indeed there are and you're evidently at the front of that particular queue.

[Gavan]

Indeed there are and you're evidently at the front of that particular queue.

Obviously i am.

 

read the thread buddy far more people think Kildemands exclusion was wrong then dont. Others are merely sit on the fence.

 

Tell me in you own words what the term ' primary cause of the stoppage' means.

 

Once you have done that then please explain how the primary cause was Kildemand hitting Dudek

 

Thank You in advance

[Vince]

How the hell can anybody say that Kildemand should have seen him? He has another rider directly between him and Dudek and is strangely looking left past the rider in front not right as that's the direction you turn on a Speedway track.

 

Personally having been run into by men on motorcycles many times over the years I wouldn't be keen to shut off and hope it happened again as a racing tactic. It could bloody hurt!

 

Of course the cause of the stoppage is Dudek's engine failure, if it hadn't happened there would have been nothing there for Kildemand to run into.

[Gavan]

How the hell can anybody say that Kildemand should have seen him? He has another rider directly between him and Dudek and is strangely looking left past the rider in front not right as that's the direction you turn on a Speedway track.

 

Personally having been run into by men on motorcycles many times over the years I wouldn't be keen to shut off and hope it happened again as a racing tactic. It could bloody hurt!

 

Of course the cause of the stoppage is Dudek's engine failure, if it hadn't happened there would have been nothing there for Kildemand to run into.

100% spot on

 

Cant understand peoples line of thinking, or they simply dont know what primary cause of the stoppage means

[Dekker]

Like Star Lady say's Kildemand morally isn't at fault,but technically is

 

IMO No, Dudek slows and impedes all the field, 2 change line to avoid him, the guy at the back who has the least view doesn't see him till the last second.

 

The raising of the hand is purely etiquette unless written into the rules in the last 10 years, there's nothing to stop him rejoining the race if the bike restarts unless the rider infringes any other track rules, ie leaves the track, impedes another rider, is lapped etc

[BWitcher]

 

IMO No, Dudek slows and impedes all the field, 2 change line to avoid him, the guy at the back who has the least view doesn't see him till the last second.

 

The raising of the hand is purely etiquette unless written into the rules in the last 10 years, there's nothing to stop him rejoining the race if the bike restarts unless the rider infringes any other track rules, ie leaves the track, impedes another rider, is lapped etc

 

Spot on, and this is an important point everyone is missing. The other two riders BOTH have to take evasive actions, if you impede another rider you run the risk of being excluded. As it happened, all three riders were impeded, with one of them dramatically so.

 

100% Dudeks fault.

[orion]

Is this debate still rumbling on???

 

 

Chris4gillian and you are so alike it's amazing in fact almost like the same poster .

[BWitcher]

Hahahahah 5 pages on a referee decision in Poland!!!! Hey BTW. Shouldn't Jerzy Szczackiel have been excluded for that rolling start in the 1973 World Final runoff with Mauger?

 

Hahaha! Posting on a thread you seemingly have no interest in!

[uk_martin]

Dudeks bike packing up was the primary reason.

Kildemand hitting him was secondary.

 

Disagree. If no-one had run into Dudek the race would have gone on and Dudek would have chalked up a retirement. So the engine failure was not the cause of the stoppage.

 

The cause of the stoppage was PK running into Dudek. Now you can argue til the cows come home about who the "primary cause" of the stoppage was but from what I've seen, any rider riding into another rider has always been excluded, and if that is a precident, then PK has to be excluded as the primary cause of the stoppage of the race. Is that the same as saying was he negligantly at fault...probably not, but who said it was a fair world? If Dudek was not under power he had little choice as to where on the track he could be. How much if what was ahead of him, or even if PK was even looking in that direction, no-one knows, but on the balance of probabilities, I'd say Kildemand was more responsible for the collision than Dudek.

 

So to me, PK should have been excluded for being the primary cause of the stoppage, and Dudek should have been excluded for not being under power at the time of the stoppage not to mention the fact that by raising his hand to retire from the race, he was out of the race anyway.

[Gavan]

 

Disagree. If no-one had run into Dudek the race would have gone on and Dudek would have chalked up a retirement. So the engine failure was not the cause of the stoppage.

 

The cause of the stoppage was PK running into Dudek. Now you can argue til the cows come home about who the "primary cause" of the stoppage was but from what I've seen, any rider riding into another rider has always been excluded, and if that is a precident, then PK has to be excluded as the primary cause of the stoppage of the race. Is that the same as saying was he negligantly at fault...probably not, but who said it was a fair world? If Dudek was not under power he had little choice as to where on the track he could be. How much if what was ahead of him, or even if PK was even looking in that direction, no-one knows, but on the balance of probabilities, I'd say Kildemand was more responsible for the collision than Dudek.

 

So to me, PK should have been excluded for being the primary cause of the stoppage, and Dudek should have been excluded for not being under power at the time of the stoppage not to mention the fact that by raising his hand to retire from the race, he was out of the race anyway.

i cant believe you cant see it logically.

The cause of the stoppage was triggered by an engine failure NOT Kildemand hitting him. Please understand what primary cause means. Kildemand hitting him was the secondary reason.

 

If you think Kildemand was more at fault then basically you are saying that if Dudek was under power then Kildemand just deliberatly rode into him! Of course he didnt!! he hit him because Dudek wasnt under power, and to say we dont know if Kildemand saw him is absurd! You suggesting he had seen him and decided just to hit him.

 

Primary cause of the stoppage means the first incident that occured the race to be stopped not what happened after which is secondary.

 

If Dudek hadnt have stopped the race would have continued, he therefore was the reason the race was stopped.

 

answer me this............say the rider immediatly behind Dudek hit him would he be excluded???

[iris123]

 

 

If Dudek hadnt have stopped the race would have continued, he therefore was the reason the race was stopped.

 

answer me this............say the rider immediatly behind Dudek hit him would he be excluded???

First thing and I can't believe that people watching calmly on a video can't even see that Dudek didn't stop!!! Find it hard to believe that a few people have stated Dudek stopped when he didn't

 

Secondly maybe the ref thought that as the two riders immediately behind Dudek avoided him then Kildemand should have as well seeing as he was even further behind.Might have been a factor in his thinking.And let's face it he was watching under stress and imo called it correctly and people here are sitting at home drinking a cuppa and still think Dudek stopped!!!!

[orion]

 

 

Secondly maybe the ref thought that as the two riders immediately behind Dudek avoided him then Kildemand should have as well seeing as he was even further behind.Might have been a factor in his thinking.

Not saying he was right but that is my thinking on how the ref saw it .

Edited April 6, 2016 by orion

[HeathenatOdsal85!]

i cant believe you cant see it logically.

The cause of the stoppage was triggered by an engine failure NOT Kildemand hitting him. Please understand what primary cause means. Kildemand hitting him was the secondary reason.

 

If you think Kildemand was more at fault then basically you are saying that if Dudek was under power then Kildemand just deliberatly rode into him! Of course he didnt!! he hit him because Dudek wasnt under power, and to say we dont know if Kildemand saw him is absurd! You suggesting he had seen him and decided just to hit him.

 

Primary cause of the stoppage means the first incident that occured the race to be stopped not what happened after which is secondary.

 

If Dudek hadnt have stopped the race would have continued, he therefore was the reason the race was stopped.

 

answer me this............say the rider immediatly behind Dudek hit him would he be excluded???

I think we need clarification if 'primary' in the context of the speedway exclusion is actually used in the context of 'first' or more in its context of 'main' or 'chief importance' (or whether it's indeed left deliberately ambiguous)

 

primary

ˈprʌɪm(ə)ri/

adjective

1.

of chief importance; principal.

"the government's primary aim is to see significant reductions in unemployment"

synonyms: main, chief, key, prime, central, principal, foremost, first, most important, predominant, paramount, overriding, major, ruling, dominant, master, supreme, cardinal, pre-eminent, ultimate; informalnumber-one

"the police believe that crime detection is their primary role"

2.

earliest in time or order.

"the primary stage of their political education"

synonyms: original, earliest, initial, beginning, first; More

 

Because primary does not always mean first. I can see both sides - The first incident was the engine failure of course, but I can see the argument it doesn't necessarily mean it was the incident of chief importance which actually caused the stoppage.

 

Perhaps in this case it is slightly more clear, but certainly in other situations the first (or primary time wise) incident isn't always the incident of chief importance which actually stops the race or results in the exclusion.

 

Can see both sides, interesting debate.

[Dekker]

 

......not to mention the fact that by raising his hand to retire from the race, he was out of the race anyway.

 

Totally irrelevant, no such rule AFAIK, it's just rider etiquette.