E I Addio Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 One thing is for sure. Teams would be far better spending 3k a week on advertising and marketing their product than on a No1 rider who brings approximately zero extra through the gate when he is there and loses approximately zero from the gate when he isn't... Where is your evidence that spending £3k a week, week on week throughout the season, would bring another £3k+ through the turnstiles ? After you take off VAT and average out concessions, kids for a quid etc the club get around £13 for each punter through the turnstiles. If you spent £3k on advertising you would need another 250 through the gate to get your money back. If you spent another £3k next week you would need original 250 to come back plus another 250 on top of that. If spending £3k a week on advertising worked it woukd bring in an extra 3500 or so punters over the season, on top of what you started with and the sport would be saved without the need for star riders Maybe you have hit on a suggestion to save the sport or maybe it's another daft idea that hasn't been thought through. The best form of advertising us word of mouth. If people like what they see they will talk about seeing great racing and newbies will be encouraged. If people go to work moaning about standing in the cold with nothing happening, cancellations for no explicable reason, teams winning 65-30, cheating, poor refereeing and all the things that annoy the existing fan base then all the advertising in the world won't make a difference. Top stars on their own won't bring the crowds back but they are an important part of the package. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 (edited) Example Swindon v Belle Vue Match A Jason Doyle riding for Swindon. Matej Zagar riding for Belle Vue. Swindon v Belle Vue Match B Jason Doyle not riding for Swindon. Matej Zagar not riding for Belle Vue.. Both teams instead running RR... Impact to crowd levels to Match B? Absolutely minimal I would suggest but the saving on wages paid out very significant indeed... In a perfect world then have these lads riding every week. Sadly Speedway in its current malaise cannot justify the outlay. Having top riders is nothing more than a vanity project to keep the title 'Elite'.. Time to move forwards and if taking a step back in the short term to move forward ten in the long term by removing the high earners then so be it.. Equal team strengths with four riders in each race being of relative commensurate ability is the utopian ideal. Who those riders are isn't the priority.... Edited April 5, 2016 by mikebv 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 (edited) Example Swindon v Belle Vue Match A Jason Doyle riding for Swindon. Matej Zagar riding for Belle Vue. Swindon v Belle Vue Match B Jason Doyle not riding for Swindon. Matej Zagar not riding for Belle Vue.. Both teams instead running RR... Impact to crowd levels to Match B? Absolutely minimal I would suggest but the saving on wages paid out very significant indeed... In a perfect world then have these lads riding every week. Sadly Speedway in its current malaise cannot justify the outlay. Having top riders is nothing more than a vanity project to keep the title 'Elite'.. Time to move forwards and if taking a step back in the short term to move forward ten in the long term by removing the high earners then so be it.. Equal team strengths with four riders in each race being of relative commensurate ability is the utopian ideal. Who those riders are isn't the priority.... We could give you a millions of examples that work the other way ....Darcy ward for example put 200 -300 on the crowds at home when he joined Swindon last year as well as the crowds he brought in when Swindon rode away as rosco said he more than paid for himself ...anyone who thinks that people don't care who rides and it does not effect the crowds need there heads tested Sadly there a witch hunt going on about the El and high earners being the problem and fans wanted for some reason to be like the pl when it has all these things your talk about but has crowds that can't even pay the riders who are on low wages as we found out with Plymouth last week as well as Berwick ,Workington ,Scunny etc being on the being on the brink as well ....for years and years we have cut the cloth and the results been there for all to see people walking away as speedway dies a slow death ... Edited April 5, 2016 by orion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 Meanwhile, away from the Fantasy League...................... Clueless. And in those two posts we have very adequate proof that there is no point in trying to have an intelligent discussion in the BSF. Simplistic answers based on guesswork and gut feeling to what are complex issues. You could put the world's best on a EL track and I would doubt whether you could get enough people in the various stadia bar Belle Vue or maybe Coventry to even think about covering the cost. Thanks to Poland the cost of hiring the 'elite' is way beyond British ability to pay now, I suspect. Yes the crowds would be bigger, but it's pointless if you can't get enough people in there to pay the riders without hiking the price to ridiculous levels. Anyway, one very strong argument against merging the leagues is that you stop these blinkered EL 'superior beings' 'supporters' from ruining the fun in the PL and NL. It's probably best to just leave the EL to its problems and focus on the sane side of the sport. It's like trying to discuss finance with someone whose expertise doesn't go beyond playing Monopoly.... so my comment of quality teams would get more in stadiums is "clueless" is it? thanks for your expert "opinion", I know I wont watch NL or PL, as I prefer higher standard. So I'm speaking on behalf of myself ok? In fact your line (4 up from bottom) states "yes, crowds would be bigger", so dont contradict yourself!!. I never mentioned finance, I never said its the way speedway should go, so maybe you should take in what you read, instead of being CLUELESS..I believe cost of a meeting may stop people going, personally I have never let that determine whether I go or not, I don't think £17 is over priced for a night out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 Example Swindon v Belle Vue Match A Jason Doyle riding for Swindon. Matej Zagar riding for Belle Vue. Swindon v Belle Vue Match B Jason Doyle not riding for Swindon. Matej Zagar not riding for Belle Vue.. Both teams instead running RR... Impact to crowd levels to Match B? Absolutely minimal I would suggest but the saving on wages paid out very significant indeed... .. Real life example Match A March 25th 2016 Lakeside -v- Kings Lynn Andreas Jonsson riding for Lakeside Neils Kristian Iverson riding for KL. Probably the last time NKI will ride at Lakeside this season, possibly the last time ever. Biggest crowd for probably more than a year. Start had to be delayed because they were still coming in. Real life example Match B April 1st 2016 , Lakeside v Leicester. Leicester have no star riders and the crowd is probably half what it was for the KL match Decent sized crowd virtually guaranteed next Friday when Poole come because Chris Holder will always pull the crowds even more so when he was with Darcy. Anyway, the question was, what evidence do you have that spending £3 k a week on advertising will bring the crowds in ? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 how much would the full page advert in SS cost every week, to promote the GP? does this ever increase the Cardiff crowd? Anybody who pays £2.90 for that magazine is fully aware of Cardiff, so id suggest £3k plus on that would be wasted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 (edited) Emil brought big crowds to Cov home and away and would probably thus 'have paid for himself'.. However, if Emil had continued riding over here and was still riding now, he would bring nowhere near the same crowds as the 'novelty' would have worn off a long time ago and I bet he wouldn't be anywhere near 'paying for himself' in the current climate.. Crumpy came back for us one year to save a disastrous season. He too put 300 or so on the gate... But most of those 300 fans were ones who had stopped going because the team were so poor... Technically I suppose 'he paid for himself' too, if you equate the crowd increase, but in reality he just brought the fan base back to where it had been, with BV now paying out considerably more (due to his much higher salary than the rider he replaced) from the same 'pre Crumpy' income... If NP came over and rode for Leicester he would I am sure, short term, put 300 or so on the gate. However, if they kept losing, crowds would soon drift away again regardless of his presence... And I didn't see Wolves ever putting the 'House Full' signs out the year they had Tai there as World Champion, in fact I seem to remember going there and seeing a very poor crowd when we raced them.. If they put tangible long term growth on attendances by their presence then the top riders are an asset... In reality I just don't see the income they bring in justifying the considerable outlay they cost.. Edit to answer E I Addios question.. I would suggest spending £3k on a local marketing plan would bring in far more new fans than the presence of a £3k No1 whom whether he is there or not will hardly impact attendances... In fact as the home match pays for the home and away meetings technically you are paying out £6k for a No1 from that solitary home match income.... You could entice a very good marketing team to take your contract if you give them a £6k a week budget to get your name out into the local public domain I would suggest. Edited April 5, 2016 by mikebv 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 speedway is watered down so much, it has nowhere to go now. Promoters, rightly or wrongly wont ever risk teams we once had 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 A big crowd comes out for something new or rare. Be that Nicki, Emil, Dudek or Zmarzlik. I'd also suggest that better quality riders do attract more fans as EL clubs do attract bigger crowds than PL teams. But I also agree it's value for money. If it was simply good riders with the odd rare appearance you'd change £100 to watch EL speedway and pay the top guys what ever they want. For me the EL at £17 is pushing it, PL at £12 and NL at £8 if in honest. It truly amazes me that PL and NL tracks charge so much. Hell NL clubs are only paying £10 a point and home and away that's only 100 points. £1000 yet sole are changing £13 to get in! Promoters at some NL clubs must be raking it in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starman2006 Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 . Hell NL clubs are only paying £10 a point and home and away that's only 100 points. £1000 yet sole are changing £13 to get in! Promoters at some NL clubs must be raking it in! I would be suprised if that was the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 Emil brought big crowds to Cov home and away and would probably thus 'have paid for himself'.. However, if Emil had continued riding over here and was still riding now, he would bring nowhere near the same crowds as the 'novelty' would have worn off a long time ago and I bet he wouldn't be anywhere near 'paying for himself' in the current climate.. Crumpy came back for us one year to save a disastrous season. He too put 300 or so on the gate... But most of those 300 fans were ones who had stopped going because the team were so poor... Technically I suppose 'he paid for himself' too, if you equate the crowd increase, but in reality he just brought the fan base back to where it had been, with BV now paying out considerably more (due to his much higher salary than the rider he replaced) from the same 'pre Crumpy' income... If NP came over and rode for Leicester he would I am sure, short term, put 300 or so on the gate. However, if they kept losing, crowds would soon drift away again regardless of his presence... And I didn't see Wolves ever putting the 'House Full' signs out the year they had Tai there as World Champion, in fact I seem to remember going there and seeing a very poor crowd when we raced them.. If they put tangible long term growth on attendances by their presence then the top riders are an asset... In reality I just don't see the income they bring in justifying the considerable outlay they cost.. Edit to answer E I Addios question.. I would suggest spending £3k on a local marketing plan would bring in far more new fans than the presence of a £3k No1 whom whether he is there or not will hardly impact attendances... In fact as the home match pays for the home and away meetings technically you are paying out £6k from that home match income.... You could get a very good marketing team if you give them a £6k a week budget to get your name out into the local public domain I would suggest.... You can spend as much as you like on advertising but if the product is not what people want they won't come, or if they do come they won't come again. If it were simply a matter of advertising it would have been done. Crowds are not dwindling because people are unaware of the existence of the sport. Fans who have been going for years have drifted away. There are a whole range of complex reasons for this. The Fast Track / EDR farce has not helped. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 (edited) What would be the point of advertising if the product you were advertising was no good ? just imagine if done that with a poor restaurant ...ok people might go there once but would never go again plus they tell others that it was poor ....the same would apply to speedway at the moment . Edited April 5, 2016 by orion 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 what wording could anyone come up with to sell a modern day match? any league? names are not big enough to attract, product isn't right. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces51 Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 (edited) No team can survive if expenditure significantly exceeds income unless the promoter can afford to write off the losses. Arguments about whether the loss of top riders has contributed to the drop in attendance or, whether they pay for themselves by attracting sufficient extra people through the gate, are irrelevant. The fact is that there is not sufficient money in the sport to afford them. Crowds have been falling since the 1980's, long before the top riders left. Riders like Darcy and Emil will attract extra fans in the short term but not once the novelty has worn off. My experience is that the absence of Zagar makes little, if any, difference to the crowds at Belle Vue, far more significant is the strength and current form of the visiting team. Clubs literally cannot afford to speculate to accumulate, the risks are too great when many are already making a loss. The only way forward is to live within their means. They must create a genuine and workable system of team equalisation, do everything possible to encourage British talent, improve presentation and the timely completion of meetings, make the sport more credible by getting rid of the absurd tactical ride, doubling up and minimising the use of guests and rewrite the rule book and enforce it fairly and consistently, no more in the best interests of the sport exceptions. They must find affordable ways of making the public at large aware that the sport still exists. Edited April 5, 2016 by Aces51 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 you try doing a football coupon and getting a treble up, its so hard, the results are so unpredictable in premiership and championship. but if you take speedway, POOLE vs LEICESTER, ...BELLE VUE vs COVENTRY etc, the only thing you could try to predict is the size of the victory. its predictable. Now you go to Cardiff, or the world cup final, you know you will watch something meaningful, cut throat, passionate, with atmosphere. no-one moans bout prices in those events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnglishRoundabout Posted April 5, 2016 Report Share Posted April 5, 2016 What I will say Steve is that I respect Matt as a business person and believe it speaks volumes of his impressive and wide-ranging capabilities when he can attract a main team sponsor to Poole Speedway such as Readypower Engineering Ltd (managing director Julie Mahoney and general manager Rick Frost*). * Julie Mahoney and Rick Frost are both former promoters of Peterborough Speedway, who walked out of the BSPA AGM in November 2010 for un-confirmed reasons and mounted a legal challenge against the BSPA. Nice body swerve! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen chemistry Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 What I will say Steve is that I respect Matt as a business person and believe it speaks volumes of his impressive and wide-ranging capabilities when he can attract a main team sponsor to Poole Speedway such as Readypower Engineering Ltd (managing director Julie Mahoney and general manager Rick Frost*). * Julie Mahoney and Rick Frost are both former promoters of Peterborough Speedway, who walked out of the BSPA AGM in November 2010 for un-confirmed reasons and mounted a legal challenge against the BSPA. ''unconfirmed reasons?'' pretty sure it was because the way the sport was being run , or run into the ground by the bspa.....pretty sure they was also calling for an independent body Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theboss Posted April 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 (edited) Real life example Match A March 25th 2016 Lakeside -v- Kings Lynn Andreas Jonsson riding for Lakeside Neils Kristian Iverson riding for KL. Probably the last time NKI will ride at Lakeside this season, possibly the last time ever. Biggest crowd for probably more than a year. Start had to be delayed because they were still coming in. Real life example Match B April 1st 2016 , Lakeside v Leicester. Leicester have no star riders and the crowd is probably half what it was for the KL match Do you think the fact that because the match against kings lynn took place on a bank holiday monday (which coincidently also had one of the first days of spring sunhine) had anything to do with the amount of people who chose to attend? I was actually there and what i saw was a lot of supporters from other tracks getting their first fix of speedway in 2016. Certainly very few if any newcomers attracted by the 'big names' you have just mentioned. Sadly there a witch hunt going on about the El and high earners being the problem and fans wanted for some reason to be like the pl when it has all these things your talk about but has crowds that can't even pay the riders who are on low wages as we found out with Plymouth last week as well as Berwick ,Workington ,Scunny etc being on the being on the brink as well ....for years and years we have cut the cloth and the results been there for all to see people walking away as speedway dies a slow death ...The first sentence is a BIG give-away, it reminds me of something i would hear from elite league promoters at BSPA meetings a few years back.... So come on admit who is really behind the alias? Ps as i have previously alluded to, it is easier to pay the bills when you have a £100k head start. With a bigger league, every club in it would have approximately a £40k head start. My next project is to put together a budget to prove it is a workable model. Nice body swerve! Actually i am surprised not to have had a response from steve shovler yet.... Maybe he is consulting with a friend before he does 😉 Edited April 6, 2016 by jchapman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fourentee Posted April 6, 2016 Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 What I will say Steve is that I respect Matt as a business person and believe it speaks volumes of his impressive and wide-ranging capabilities when he can attract a main team sponsor to Poole Speedway such as Readypower Engineering Ltd (managing director Julie Mahoney and general manager Rick Frost*). Jonathan, you might consider increasing the space between the lines when posting in this fashion, Then we could read between them... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theboss Posted April 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2016 (edited) Jonathan, you might consider increasing the space between the lines when posting in this fashion, Then we could read between them... I Have No Idea What You Mean 😀 Edited April 6, 2016 by jchapman 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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