Standardised Equipment

[steve roberts]

Strange you think that...I actually see it as the opposite.

 

I see the racing being closer with 'Standard' engines.

I don't pretend to know much about the mechanics of an engine but surely a standardisation of engines would allow the skill of the rider to come thru' rather than a 'quick bike' to dominate...hence better racing?

[mac101]

what is the difference between a standard engine and a tuned engine that is a good way to start they all have the same internals although several different types off flywheels ,rod,piston valves springs ignition carb the tuner puts them together his way it is really the tuner that puts the right combination together and does the best for his rider

Edited March 15, 2016 by mac101

[foamfence]

what is the difference between a standard engine and a tuned engine that is a good way to start they all have the same internals although several different types off flywheels ,rod,piston valves springs ignition carb the tuner puts them together his way it is really the tuner that puts the right combination together and does the best for his rider

Those parts are usually more expensive than factory parts, more fragile and require more frequent attention.

[SPEEDY69]

If the future is "standard engines" the the future is also tiny riders who have the smallest weight vs power ratio rather than who would have the most ability.

For example Matej Zagar vs Josh Bates who is the better rider? Now put them on "standard" engines, the swing of power would fall to Bates yet Zagar the currently more talented rider would be penalised solely for being heavier.

 

Also there is a safety element that nobody has considered? Bikes need power to turn, riders need confidence in the bike to turn, how often would there be occurrences of riders heading into the first corner, attempting to turn and because the bike characteristics are different end up going straight into the fence and taking all their counterparts with them.

 

I believe that has little impact actually. Speedway is not about who has the most powerful engine, it's about delivering consistent grip around the track in a controlled manner. The rideability of a bike is drastically affected by the ignition timing, carb jetting, wheel placement and gearing. It's essential that these are all available to be adjusted by the rider and that they are able to put in a practice lap or two to know what settings to use. This could work and would answer your second point. Often, sadly, costs spiral as a matter of choice i.e. one rider sees another with such and such so wants the same as they think it will improve things for them when often it makes no difference whatsoever. I remember once getting an enquiry from a professional rider about the clutch springs I used because my bike got off the start quicker than theirs - they were perplexed when I said they were second hand three years previous and I also had old standard plates, not the $$$$ haruschi type.

 

Gresham was right earlier in that it should be looked at from the spectator angle & not the riders as they will always want to seek an advantage over competitors - who wouldn't?

Edited March 15, 2016 by SPEEDY69

[mac101]

Those parts are usually more expensive than factory parts, more fragile and require more frequent attention.

They might be a bit little more expensive than standard parts unless your talking Taitanium then that's a different league again but they are definitely a lot stronger better built/made then standard parts and if serviced at the proper intervals they will last as long as any standard part but the top riders will change these parts every other service whether it needs it or not I would never use a piston for more than 2 years that would be around 4 services one at the start of the season and one around 50ish heats mid season a rod should last for years or until it honed to the max size of pin and if you can get the set up right at most tracks your engine will perform without too much stress on it when we go to Armadale on a Friday the home riders engines are pretty quiet flat because the track is pretty much the same every meeting every week butcookies bike always sounded so flat but no one could touch him around there infact he gets the set up pretty spot on every meeting after his first ride just listen to his bike compared to other riders on track if you ever go to watch him then listen to other riders engines screaming there ** off who's engines is working right

[Long Eye]

Those parts are usually more expensive than factory parts, more fragile and require more frequent attention.

Not always. A CP piston is cheaper than a GM one and lasts longer. Performance wise there is very little difference between the 2. As for Jawa pistons you'd be better off just burning two and half grand an save yourself the bother of actually fitting the engine.

[phillipsr]

If you force the riders to do something they dont want to do they will go elsewhere, people say speedway is nothing without fans they seem to forget that riders are more important than fans for speedway,

[Ghostwalker]

If you force the riders to do something they dont want to do they will go elsewhere, people say speedway is nothing without fans they

seem to forget that riders are more important than fans for speedway,

 

Without the riders there wouldn't be any fans watching but at the same time if there's no one watching there probably wouldn't be any riders either.

Speedway needs both, so it's more of a catch 22 then that this or that is more important.

[eric i]

If you force the riders to do something they dont want to do they will go elsewhere, people say speedway is nothing without fans they seem to forget that riders are more important than fans for speedway,

Those who have already invested in equipment and are reaping the rewards would no doubt protest but I can't see many riders leaving.

[Vince]

Those who have already invested in equipment and are reaping the rewards would no doubt protest but I can't see many riders leaving.

 

I can see many not being able to afford to stay!

[Gresham]

If you force the riders to do something they dont want to do they will go elsewhere, people say speedway is nothing without fans they seem to forget that riders are more important than fans for speedway,

With respect...so short sighted.

 

How did the riders first get interested in Speedway in the first place?

 

Speedway is dying...there will be no fans, and no riders if things don't drastically change.

 

Fans, riders etc seem to want to stick their head in the sand and not do anything about it.

 

They tinker here...they tinker there...every year. It's bloody ridiculous.

 

I've never known a sport tinker with the rules and regs so much.

 

It seems everyone in speedway finds a reason not to change things drastically...because imo, it will effect them financially short term.

 

Everything is short term.

[Ray Stadia]

With respect...so short sighted.

 

How did the riders first get interested in Speedway in the first place?

 

Speedway is dying...there will be no fans, and no riders if things don't drastically change.

 

Fans, riders etc seem to want to stick their head in the sand and not do anything about it.

 

They tinker here...they tinker there...every year. It's bloody ridiculous.

 

I've never known a sport tinker with the rules and regs so much.

 

It seems everyone in speedway finds a reason not to change things drastically...because imo, it will effect them financially short term.

 

Everything is short term.

I have now read the article in the Speedway Star on Mr Johns and it was an interesting article. However, it didn't really address the issue of reducing costs, apart from Mr Johns saying he wasn't as expensive as other tuners, his engines are reliable and he would prefer to see rev limiters. However, he did suggest that riders who have tried rev limiters, most couldn't get on with them. Also, he admitted most of his riders didn't ride in the UK. Whatever other countries feel about the cost of speedway is their issue, we are concerned with the UK, therefore, perhaps his views will be biased. The article didn't really offer any hope of reducing costs from the tuners point of view, in my opinion. It will be interesting to see if any changes are made in the future.

[Sings4Speedway]

From my point of view if costs are to be reduced then pay needs to be reduced. Wages at all levels of the sport are getting extreme. If points money is reduced then riders will be forced into the decision of spending big with tuners or sourcing more cost effective engines themselves.

Plus with the potential in reduced outlay gate prices might finally come down to sensible levels.

Yes there will be riders who refuse to ride at a reduced rate but its their option to continue or pack up? Im sure there will be plenty who despite early reluctance will be ringing clubs begging for a place as the season approaches.

[steve roberts]

At the end of the day less people are attending speedway meetings therefore less revenue is being collected which ultimately will mean less money to pay the riders...and the cloth, therefore, needs to be cut accordingly to take into account the economic realities. Riders need to accept that speedway, in this country certainly, no longer offers full-time employment (in the past most riders rode despite holding down regular jobs anyway) and the sooner this scenario is accepted the better for the saviour of the sport. If it means the 'Star' riders looking abroad for employment then so be it and then, perhaps, the sport can be managed at a more sustainable level based on the current economic circumstances.

 

Should the sport, therefore, be run on a purely amateur basis? That's another question.

[Vince]

Does anybody really believe that an engine that has had the tolerances optimised and been assembled properly by a tuner is more fragile than one straight out of the Jawa factory? If so they'd be very wrong.

 

I can see the benefits of trying to level the playing field and reduce costs but telling riders their current equipment is obsolete and putting them on factory built engines is unlikely to do either. For starters anybody who ever built a race motor of any sort will know that trying to get two engines to perform exactly the same is near impossible. Then you'll have what happens in other sports where engines are sealed, those with the money buy lots of engines and select the best after dyno testing them. I knew a British Kart champion who threw obscene amounts of money doing that to win a 'standardised' championship.

 

I only see two logical ways of achieving these aims. One is to introduce a rev limiter, minimum flywheel weight and standardised ancillaries like clutch and carb. That should, for a while at least increase reliability and reduce costs, especially if the rev limit were reduced year on year to a specified level.

 

Second possibility is a claiming rule where any rider can buy another riders engine for £X at the end of a meeting. Nobody is then going to spend too near that figure on engines, again that would have to be introduced in increments.

[FAST GATER]

iMO any rider wil jump at the chance of being a 1/10 sec faster a lap regardless of the cost of having new motor or parts but won't consider investing in something that may well protect him and the the sport longterm .That just about sums up this sport money can be found to go faster and equipement disgarded regardless of cost ( or threat of retiring) if they think it will give them an edge , someone needs to get hold of this and stop the lunatics running the asylum .

 

Set down rules and stick to them if Tai and co don't like it stick to Olsen's circus and Poland etc, if the sport ends up with riders being semi- pro so be it . I think in a very short time a well run solvent form of s/way in this country would entice a lot of those mercenaries back which would once again enhance our sport.You have to hit rock bottom before you come back up and keeping cost down is a crucial part of any business even s/way. If the engines were kept in check then the riders would have to rely on skill ,experience and not who has the biggest wallet ,the "cream will always float to the top" in the end .

 

Prehaps it is time for the GM to join the Jap,Jawa,Weslake ,Godden etc as "door stops" standardised motors may not seem it but could just be the future of the sport what ever form it takes.

[cyclone]

Does anybody really believe that an engine that has had the tolerances optimised and been assembled properly by a tuner is more fragile than one straight out of the Jawa factory? If so they'd be very wrong.

 

I can see the benefits of trying to level the playing field and reduce costs but telling riders their current equipment is obsolete and putting them on factory built engines is unlikely to do either. For starters anybody who ever built a race motor of any sort will know that trying to get two engines to perform exactly the same is near impossible. Then you'll have what happens in other sports where engines are sealed, those with the money buy lots of engines and select the best after dyno testing them. I knew a British Kart champion who threw obscene amounts of money doing that to win a 'standardised' championship.

 

I only see two logical ways of achieving these aims. One is to introduce a rev limiter, minimum flywheel weight and standardised ancillaries like clutch and carb. That should, for a while at least increase reliability and reduce costs, especially if the rev limit were reduced year on year to a specified level.

 

Second possibility is a claiming rule where any rider can buy another riders engine for £X at the end of a meeting. Nobody is then going to spend too near that figure on engines, again that would have to be introduced in increments.

 

IIRC did Jim McMillan not test rev limiters in his Official Role as a Technical Advisor a few years ago ?

 

I seem to recall some riders tested them at Scunny or Rye House,,& Ricky Ashworth was impressed with their use on his bike at the testing session.

 

However it appears that for whatever reason, no further developments on their possible introduction was ever subsequently reported.

[Tsunami]

 

IIRC did Jim McMillan not test rev limiters in his Official Role as a Technical Advisor a few years ago ?

 

I seem to recall some riders tested them at Scunny or Rye House,,& Ricky Ashworth was impressed with their use on his bike at the testing session.

 

However it appears that for whatever reason, no further developments on their possible introduction was ever subsequently reported.

Yes he did, but an informed opinion was never released unfortunately. I understood some riders were not that happy with them, and it does not appear to have been revisited.

[IronScorpion]

David Howe was another of the testers used & from what i remember, he thought they would be a good thing to introduce to keep costs/engine blowups down

[Deano]

From my point of view if costs are to be reduced then pay needs to be reduced. Wages at all levels of the sport are getting extreme. If points money is reduced then riders will be forced into the decision of spending big with tuners or sourcing more cost effective engines themselves.

Plus with the potential in reduced outlay gate prices might finally come down to sensible levels.

Yes there will be riders who refuse to ride at a reduced rate but its their option to continue or pack up? Im sure there will be plenty who despite early reluctance will be ringing clubs begging for a place as the season approaches.

 

I think the BSPA did this in 1992 or 1993. Many riders retired, but it kept the sport going healthily-ish through troubled times.