Standardised Equipment

[Gresham]

Sometimes. But also riders prefer different set-ups to get around the same track on the same night. One might find extra heavy flywheels suits his style whilst his team mate prefers very light flywheels. The idea of having a pool of engines allocated randomly is to ensure each rider would be on the same footing. Not all 'tuning' is to increase power.

Exactly...

 

This is why Speedway needs to adapt. Right now, riders are tinkering all the time to get their bikes as perfect a fit to themselves.

 

What I personally think needs to happen, is a back to basics. Get that pool of engines...put it in the rolling chassis. Then get on and learn to adapt and ride the damn thing.

 

Of course it will go against the grain...as certain riders would lose an advantage.

 

But every rider would be in the same boat.

 

Adapt and get on with it.

 

Riders have now become more important than the sport.

 

'Speedway' needs to take over and not let riders dictate. For the good of the sport...not so that some riders can retire in relative prosperity.

[martinmauger]

In a previous life i did a lot of mechanicking (cars, bikes, maintenance, tuning, road, off-road, 2-stroke, 4-stroke, etc) but a change of career means I'm somewhat out of the loop and rarly get my hands dirty so could someone please explain exactly what is meant by an off-set engine? I've racked my brains a bit but to be honest I can't imagine what it means, sorry if it's already been answered....

[sommelier]

In a previous life i did a lot of mechanicking (cars, bikes, maintenance, tuning, road, off-road, 2-stroke, 4-stroke, etc) but a change of career means I'm somewhat out of the loop and rarly get my hands dirty so could someone please explain exactly what is meant by an off-set engine? I've racked my brains a bit but to be honest I can't imagine what it means, sorry if it's already been answered....

The piston to the side of the crank center line, less frictional loss

[E I Addio]

In answer to a few...

 

The clubs could find the money by not paying out so much in contracts.

s.

Every post you have made has been answered by a variety of posters, mostly with first hand experience and a technical background explaining why your ideas are not practical. You have rejected those comments with fanciful suggestions with no factual basis.

 

You now reckon that clubs could could find around £50k for 14 new engines by not paying so much in contracts. So perhaps you can back this up with a few facts. How much do clubs pay in contracts now and how much of a reduction would riders accept to make this £50k saving? On your idea of a pool of engines riders don't know which engines they are going to get and therefore how much money they will make.

Unless you can show us your costings it looks like a pie in the sky argument.

[Ray Stadia]

In a previous life i did a lot of mechanicking (cars, bikes, maintenance, tuning, road, off-road, 2-stroke, 4-stroke, etc) but a change of career means I'm somewhat out of the loop and rarly get my hands dirty so could someone please explain exactly what is meant by an off-set engine? I've racked my brains a bit but to be honest I can't imagine what it means, sorry if it's already been answered....

I know Sommelier has answered, but there is a Wikipedia under Desaxe. I hadn't heard of it either, the Wiki is very descriptive. However, not sure I fully understand it after reading it!

[Reviresco]

I know Sommelier has answered, but there is a Wikipedia under Desaxe. I hadn't heard of it either, the Wiki is very descriptive. However, not sure I fully understand it after reading it!

 

Found this useful for an outline of offset technology:

 

https://rideapart.com/articles/free-power-offset-cylinders-explained

[martinmauger]

Ah interesting, thought it could have meant the engine mounted more to one side. E.g. if you look closely at a pic of Mauger's gold bike, the frame appears twisted. It is, Ivan himself told he had it so 'adjusted' to provided a better ride at Wroclaw, the venue of his 1970 win; obviously it worked. Thanks to all who replied, some reading to be done then....

[eric i]

Every post you have made has been answered by a variety of posters, mostly with first hand experience and a technical background explaining why your ideas are not practical. You have rejected those comments with fanciful suggestions with no factual basis.

 

You now reckon that clubs could could find around £50k for 14 new engines by not paying so much in contracts. So perhaps you can back this up with a few facts. How much do clubs pay in contracts now and how much of a reduction would riders accept to make this £50k saving? On your idea of a pool of engines riders don't know which engines they are going to get and therefore how much money they will make.

Unless you can show us your costings it looks like a pie in the sky argument.

£50k for 14 new engines that would be a £3571 an engine, I think they could get them cheaper than that, peter johns talks about a potential cost of £2000 per engine in his article. Although I agree some clubs would still struggle to finance a pool of engines.

[Gresham]

Every post you have made has been answered by a variety of posters, mostly with first hand experience and a technical background explaining why your ideas are not practical. You have rejected those comments with fanciful suggestions with no factual basis.

 

You now reckon that clubs could could find around £50k for 14 new engines by not paying so much in contracts. So perhaps you can back this up with a few facts. How much do clubs pay in contracts now and how much of a reduction would riders accept to make this £50k saving? On your idea of a pool of engines riders don't know which engines they are going to get and therefore how much money they will make.

Unless you can show us your costings it looks like a pie in the sky argument.

The answers given, have all been based on what is happening now.

 

For example...you said riders prefer GM's at the moment. I know they need to be assembled through the likes of Trevor Hedge etc.

 

The point I have been making...is that riders have too much control over what happens in Speedway.

 

For the Sport to survive long term, it, imo, needs a massive overhaul.

 

Every year, it's a tweak here, a tweak their...covering over the cracks. It's all short term, rather than long term.

 

Give me a reason why the BSPA couldn't go to a Speedway manufacturer and do a deal for Club engines?

 

A basic Jawa engine now is approx. £2000....GM's more expensive.

 

Why can't the BSPA make new rules and say...these are the rules...these are the engines...bring your rolling chassis...we fit the engine...now just go out and ride the thing?

 

It's all very well saying this rider prefers this...that rider prefers that...that may be the case now, which is how Speedway has developed.

 

But ask yourself...why is speedway struggling? Why is speedway so expensive to run? Why does it cost riders so much money to be competitive? It's not just about keeping water and a bit of grit out the engine when cleaning...costs are way too expensive, because engines are being tuned to near breaking point...just to get that little bit of advantage. And nearly every rider is having to do it to compete...so it's a vicious circle.

 

It needs to stop somehow.

 

So by bringing in standard engines to ride...fitted into a riders own preferred rolling chassis...with adjustments just made to clutch, sprockets etc...what's wrong with that?

 

A rider may say...I prefer the set up this way...but tough. Ride the damn thing as it's given. Everyone would be in the same boat.

[mac101]

Pretty sure some Riders would just love to turn up and put a standard engine into their roller at no cost to them what's so ever ride the guts out of it because if it blows up they wouldn't care and go home maybe no points money because the engine was unless lacked power where it counts, A top rider will blow standard engine up in no time as it will be ridden to the max not many riders ride there own engines to the max I am pretty sure at the start of last year Richard Lawson went throught a spate of blowing a few engines up too he found out it was his new carb that was the problem flooding and when methanol. Gets into your oil it turns to water seizes pretty quick , speedway is a cheap sport compared to some motorsports it's like anything that's mechanical look after it and it will last a lot longer

[Long Eye]

The answers given, have all been based on what is happening now.

 

For example...you said riders prefer GM's at the moment. I know they need to be assembled through the likes of Trevor Hedge etc.

 

The point I have been making...is that riders have too much control over what happens in Speedway.

 

For the Sport to survive long term, it, imo, needs a massive overhaul.

 

Every year, it's a tweak here, a tweak their...covering over the cracks. It's all short term, rather than long term.

 

Give me a reason why the BSPA couldn't go to a Speedway manufacturer and do a deal for Club engines?

 

A basic Jawa engine now is approx. £2000....GM's more expensive.

 

Why can't the BSPA make new rules and say...these are the rules...these are the engines...bring your rolling chassis...we fit the engine...now just go out and ride the thing?

 

It's all very well saying this rider prefers this...that rider prefers that...that may be the case now, which is how Speedway has developed.

 

But ask yourself...why is speedway struggling? Why is speedway so expensive to run? Why does it cost riders so much money to be competitive? It's not just about keeping water and a bit of grit out the engine when cleaning...costs are way too expensive, because engines are being tuned to near breaking point...just to get that little bit of advantage. And nearly every rider is having to do it to compete...so it's a vicious circle.

 

It needs to stop somehow.

 

So by bringing in standard engines to ride...fitted into a riders own preferred rolling chassis...with adjustments just made to clutch, sprockets etc...what's wrong with that?

 

A rider may say...I prefer the set up this way...but tough. Ride the damn thing as it's given. Everyone would be in the same boat.

So what do you know about what is involved in the tuning of speedway engines? Give us some experience and facts as to why you KNOW that they are tuned to be in a fragile state and cost an arm and a leg to maintain compared to a standard spec engine.

[Deano]

Getting into speedway isn't expensive. Any Tom Dick or Harry could buy a second hand runner and go and slide it at a track. It is a very accessible sport. Try doing that with your Ducati at Brand Hatch?

 

The issue isn't riders taking everything out of the sport, most I guess pump it back in buying equipment, not just the bike.

 

I can't see riders letting a promoter/track own the engines. Purely because riders wanting to be in control of their own equipment.

 

Unsure of the answer, but just telling riders to get on with it, isn't going to get standard equipment accepted.

 

Speedway needs to be priced at a level where any Tom, Dick and Harry (this includes promoters as well as riders), can earn a living from it. Machinery is a very small part of the whole package unfortunately.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Deano

[Gresham]

Getting into speedway isn't expensive. Any Tom Dick or Harry could buy a second hand runner and go and slide it at a track. It is a very accessible sport. Try doing that with your Ducati at Brand Hatch?

 

The issue isn't riders taking everything out of the sport, most I guess pump it back in buying equipment, not just the bike.

 

I can't see riders letting a promoter/track own the engines. Purely because riders wanting to be in control of their own equipment.

 

Unsure of the answer, but just telling riders to get on with it, isn't going to get standard equipment accepted.

 

Speedway needs to be priced at a level where any Tom, Dick and Harry (this includes promoters as well as riders), can earn a living from it. Machinery is a very small part of the whole package unfortunately.

You hit the nail on the head when you said 'Riders want to be in control of their own equipment'...and that imo, is the problem...riders have too much control and say in what happens in speedway. If they just want to ride in individual events and pay for their own equipment...let them.

 

Everything seems to be focussed on short term fix's rather than what's going to happen in the long term.

 

At the rate Speedway is going...Riders won't be able to make any living what so ever...as it's dying as a sport.

 

The sport is very simple...made complicated.

 

Many seem to be looking at it from a riders perspective...when it should be looked at from a fans perspective.

 

All fans want to see are four riders racing on equal machinery.

 

They couldn't give a toss as to what's been done to an engine or who tuned it.

 

If present riders walked away...so be it...for the good of the sport long term.

 

As for Riders abusing the engines, because they didn't own them...that wouldn't happen.

 

They would ride them and treat them like their own, as 'why cut off the hand that feeds you?' All they would be doing is making it impossible for the Club to employ them in the future.

 

All in can see from answers to far...are from a riders, mechanics and tuners perspective.

 

This sport is nothing without the fans.

 

If it meant this sport losing riders because they couldn't accept the changes...then so be it...there would be plenty of up and coming riders willing to take a position at a club and riding to the 'new regs'.

[Ray Stadia]

You hit the nail on the head when you said 'Riders want to be in control of their own equipment'...and that imo, is the problem...riders have too much control and say in what happens in speedway. If they just want to ride in individual events and pay for their own equipment...let them.

 

Everything seems to be focussed on short term fix's rather than what's going to happen in the long term.

 

At the rate Speedway is going...Riders won't be able to make any living what so ever...as it's dying as a sport.

 

The sport is very simple...made complicated.

 

Many seem to be looking at it from a riders perspective...when it should be looked at from a fans perspective.

 

All fans want to see are four riders racing on equal machinery.

 

They couldn't give a toss as to what's been done to an engine or who tuned it.

 

If present riders walked away...so be it...for the good of the sport long term.

 

As for Riders abusing the engines, because they didn't own them...that wouldn't happen.

 

They would ride them and treat them like their own, as 'why cut off the hand that feeds you?' All they would be doing is making it impossible for the Club to employ them in the future.

 

All in can see from answers to far...are from a riders, mechanics and tuners perspective.

 

This sport is nothing without the fans.

 

If it meant this sport losing riders because they couldn't accept the changes...then so be it...there would be plenty of up and coming riders willing to take a position at a club and riding to the 'new regs'.

Maybe the answer is, to leave speedway as it stands, to it's own destiny. If speedway dies, it will eventually be resurrected and perhaps the resurrected version will be without the current failings. Unfortunately though, I would predict a resurrected version would be amateur and likely to be individual meetings and probably held on 'tracks in a field'. At least it would be relatively cheap for all concerned.

[Gresham]

Maybe the answer is, to leave speedway as it stands, to it's own destiny. If speedway dies, it will eventually be resurrected and perhaps the resurrected version will be without the current failings. Unfortunately though, I would predict a resurrected version would be amateur and likely to be individual meetings and probably held on 'tracks in a field'. At least it would be relatively cheap for all concerned.

Maybe...but obviously the BSPA feel something needs to be done otherwise they wouldn't want to introduce standardised engines that are sealed.

 

imo...it's a good thing. At least they are trying something.

[Sings4Speedway]

If the future is "standard engines" the the future is also tiny riders who have the smallest weight vs power ratio rather than who would have the most ability.

For example Matej Zagar vs Josh Bates who is the better rider? Now put them on "standard" engines, the swing of power would fall to Bates yet Zagar the currently more talented rider would be penalised solely for being heavier.

 

Also there is a safety element that nobody has considered? Bikes need power to turn, riders need confidence in the bike to turn, how often would there be occurrences of riders heading into the first corner, attempting to turn and because the bike characteristics are different end up going straight into the fence and taking all their counterparts with them.

[foamfence]

If the future is "standard engines" the the future is also tiny riders who have the smallest weight vs power ratio rather than who would have the most ability.

For example Matej Zagar vs Josh Bates who is the better rider? Now put them on "standard" engines, the swing of power would fall to Bates yet Zagar the currently more talented rider would be penalised solely for being heavier.

 

Also there is a safety element that nobody has considered? Bikes need power to turn, riders need confidence in the bike to turn, how often would there be occurrences of riders heading into the first corner, attempting to turn and because the bike characteristics are different end up going straight into the fence and taking all their counterparts with them.

That's nonsense, you'll still have wheelspin and throttle control.

[mac101]

Think if standard engines came in it would be like watching F1 VERY BOREING these days first out the gate or the one with the fastest bike would win most times no passing only way I see to try change is put rev limiter on ignition and maybe a smaller carb body and put a bit more dirt on the tracks

[Gresham]

Think if standard engines came in it would be like watching F1 VERY BOREING these days first out the gate or the one with the fastest bike would win most times no passing only way I see to try change is put rev limiter on ignition and maybe a smaller carb body and put a bit more dirt on the tracks

Strange you think that...I actually see it as the opposite.

 

I see the racing being closer with 'Standard' engines.

[OveFundinFan]

I remember a few years back there was a road racing series with Yamaha 350/400cc water cooled bikes. All standard or at least tuned to the same level. Riders put there hand in a "hat" and pulled out an ignition key - that was their bike for the day. Racing was good, the best riders won, it was close racing but those with higher talant pulled gaps on the lesser talanted. It could work in speedway.

I dont see how standard engines would prove dangerous just because they may be lower powered. JAP engined racing back in the 50's/60's wasnt dangerous because they were only 50bhp or so, 2 valve JAWA racing in the late 60's/70's was no more dangerous then a 4 valve JAWA or a Weslake etc.

There will always be a demand for more power.

Look at F1 today, the drivers demanding for more power. Regulations in recent years has reduced power and other characteristics of cars, so they maybe 4 seconds a lap slower, yet Mercedes duo still rule the roost somewhat easy, but still the drivers want more speed, its an ego thing. Give cars all the same engine and the top drivers will still shine brighter because of their talent. Give speedway bikes the same engine and the talented riders will still shine.