Standardised Equipment

[E I Addio]

 

A sealed standardised engine used in team events, is something I've wanted in all the years I've watched speedway.

 

Personally...I would make all the teams supply the sealed engines.

 

The riders draw lots as to which engine they get, then fit to their own rolling chassis.

 

Obviously there would be spares for EF's etc...

 

Standard sealed Jawa engines for example would surely keep costs down?

e.

You couldn't get seven engines exactly the same, and even if you could riders are different weights and sizes , with different riding styles and need engines set up in different ways. You really should read the Peter Johns interview in SS . It is an eye opener.

[Ray Stadia]

 

I don't know. Perhaps (speculation) it's due to the nature of the speedway sport and the general design of the bikes?

 

In most other high speed motorsports, the fuel tank is usually much more well protected and most car series, regardless if it is F1 or WRC or WEC or DTM,

they have some special types of safety tanks (safety fuel cells http://fuelsafe.com/ http://atlinc.com/racing.html) which is usually embedded in the car to

protect it from external forces.

On a speedway bike on the other hand everything is very exposed, the engine, the exhaust and the fuel system so if there is a crash (which there often is in speedway)

I think the risks if petrol is leaking out might be quite more dangerous (very hot engine and exhaust pipe+silencer) then if methanol would leak out

since petrol is more prone to ignite, perhaps using petrol would increase the risks of a fireball a bit too much?

 

*while I was typing E I Addio also answered. Perhaps it's a combination?

Moto X uses petrol and holds more fuel than a speedway bike. I haven't heard of any fire problems in Moto X. I would think a lot of the reason for using methanol is 'we always have'. I believe methanol is more explosive, in terms of power and the pistons are very high compression. I think they have to be high compression to get the stuff to ignite. Using petrol over methanol, surely won't save any money, will it?

[Deano]

You couldn't get seven engines exactly the same, and even if you could riders are different weights and sizes , with different riding styles and need engines set up in different ways. You really should read the Peter Johns interview in SS . It is an eye opener.

 

I haven't read the article so I don't know whether he is in support or against. What I generally find in life is there a more people who will come up with reasons not to do something than agree and go with change. This is where I believe weak leadership comes to the surface and the status quo remains, which will eventually see the end of speedway.

[The Little Un]

The main reason why Standardised Petrol Engine Speedway Bikes were not adopted some years ago was the cost because riders claimed that to get the performance from a petrol engine would require a 600cc engine and that would make most current speedway bikes obsolete: however a year or two later they all changed from upright to laydown engines and made all the existing speedway bikes obsolete.

[OveFundinFan]

If I remember right, methanol runs cooler then petrol, so can withstand higher compression ratio, which gives more "punch".

Compression produces heat which is not good for engines (high temperatures that is), hence in moto x they have watercooled engines. Methanol running cooler even at higher compression (higher heat) is ok.

Petrol engined speedway bikes would probably need radiators which will cause problems ie getting filled in with track dirt and overheating.

 

Laydown engines mentioned in above post - just wish we could have the bikes from the 70's/80's back again. 4 valve uprights produced good racing (as does the laydown machines) but they look better in my opinion, and from what the general consensus is, they were easier to ride then laydown.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Joe Hatton

[KIRKYLANE]

If I remember right, methanol runs cooler then petrol, so can withstand higher compression ratio, which gives more "punch".

Compression produces heat which is not good for engines (high temperatures that is), hence in moto x they have watercooled engines. Methanol running cooler even at higher compression (higher heat) is ok.

Petrol engined speedway bikes would probably need radiators which will cause problems ie getting filled in with track dirt and overheating.

 

Laydown engines mentioned in above post - just wish we could have the bikes from the 70's/80's back again. 4 valve uprights produced good racing (as does the laydown machines) but they look better in my opinion, and from what the general consensus is, they were easier to ride then laydown.

 

The lay downs have a lower centre of gravity which make it easier to handle on the bends.

 

Even so I would be delighted to see a return to uprights with standardized engines.

[Gresham]

Seems there are a few answers on this link as to why methanol is used... https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/why-is-methanol-used-in-race-engines.316560/

 

However... Engines will be designed to use methanol.

 

For the future...engines could be designed to use petrol.

 

Petrol companies are massive...they have money...they wish to advertise and sponsor. What methanol companies sponsor?

 

This proves it can be done... Petrol driven speedway... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-_uUWQkX3M

 

Plus check out F2 speedway.com

[martinmauger]

Having mechanicked in the pits and briefly dipped my toe in riding a 500, I do know how to start a speedway engine from cold but I have seen riders (even pros) as soon as the engine starts hold the throttle wide open with the entire bike almost jumping off the stand. Has to be seen and heard to be believed, but from a distance. Rev limiters may not be THE answer but I rekcon would at least be a start in cost reduction. Standard engines owned by tracks and hnaded out out via picking a number out a crash helmet would be a good idea but the startup costs would be termendous. Do clubs A) buy 8, 7 + 1 spare, standard engines or do riders sell their existing motors for standard internal components fitted: cam, piston, clyinder head & barrel, crank, valves, etc. (Ignore the emoticon, it appeared by itself and won't delete)

 

One thing never mentioned in the 1998 honda experiment is that while Honda may well have been offloading some surplus 650cc enduro engines, though there is no actual evidence of this, is reliability would have drastically improved and in the future they would in all likelyhood manufacture and supply a unit designed specifically for the job, minus the redundant inertnal gearbox. All conjecture now of course, but no one seems to have a solution.

 

But we all seem to be in agreement something needs to be done to reduce costs & speed to hopefully make for better racing and also noise as ever more stringent laws are being enforced on speedway tracks....

Edited March 11, 2016 by Martin Mauger

[Gresham]

Same reasons back then..

 

Google 'Honda Speedway engine 1998' and you'll find pics and the reasons it never took off.

 

It's on Sheffield Speedway website.

 

Why is it I can't copy and paste onto this site or insert pics?

 

Is it a problem my end...or a setting on the forum?

Edited March 11, 2016 by Gresham

[E I Addio]

To summarise Peter Johns comments to their basics he is saying that relative to other motor sports Speedwáy is not that expensive and a lot of the trouble is because people don't know how to look after them properly. He says the biggest single thing is not filling them with water when pressure washing and the next most important thing is keeping dirt out of the engine when making adjustments during a meeting. This is in line with my own observstions. The first rule of engineering is to keep your workplace clean, yet I see many junior riders and their so called mechanics working in all kinds of mess. Some of them never learn and the reason they never learn is that their is no one to teach them. Young riders should be taught the basics from day one.

 

Peter Johns backs up what he says by pointing out that engines he built for Chris Holder and Tai Woofinden 4 or 5 years ago are still in use. It is a myth that riders need new engines every year yet some spend a fortune on them . The other thing is learning about ignitions and getting them right. Sometimes a minor ignition fault can be difficult to trace and riders spend a lot of money replacing other things without finding the real cause of the problem.

 

Sealed engines won't cure lack of technical knowledge. Proper. Technical education(and riders that can be bothered to learn ) will . That IMO is where the real problem lies.

[FAST GATER]

To summarise Peter Johns comments to their basics he is saying that relative to other motor sports Speedwáy is not that expensive and a lot of the trouble is because people don't know how to look after them properly. He says the biggest single thing is not filling them with water when pressure washing and the next most important thing is keeping dirt out of the engine when making adjustments during a meeting. This is in line with my own observstions. The first rule of engineering is to keep your workplace clean, yet I see many junior riders and their so called mechanics working in all kinds of mess. Some of them never learn and the reason they never learn is that their is no one to teach them. Young riders should be taught the basics from day one.

 

Peter Johns backs up what he says by pointing out that engines he built for Chris Holder and Tai Woofinden 4 or 5 years ago are still in use. It is a myth that riders need new engines every year yet some spend a fortune on them . The other thing is learning about ignitions and getting them right. Sometimes a minor ignition fault can be difficult to trace and riders spend a lot of money replacing other things without finding the real cause of the problem.

 

Sealed engines won't cure lack of technical knowledge. Proper. Technical education(and riders that can be bothered to learn ) will . That IMO is where the real problem lies.

So Holder and Tai are using 4or 5 yr old engines ( only joking ) when asking Peter Johns about speedway costs it like asking Turkeys to vote for Christmas it sounds a contrived interview that any politician would have been proud of .

[SteveLyric2]

When Chris Holder won the World Championship in 2012, he rode the same engine everywhere - GPs, Leagues and Internationals - suitably tuned for varying track conditions, size and shape.

[f-s-p]

So Holder and Tai are using 4or 5 yr old engines ( only joking ) when asking Peter Johns about speedway costs it like asking Turkeys to vote for Christmas it sounds a contrived interview that any politician would have been proud of .

He gives out so much info on his prices and other stuff in the interview, that if he's lying he's out of business by May. Think he said he's been doing engines for almost 30 yers now, he cant be full of turd and current world champion at the same time, IMO = )

[foamfence]

He gives out so much info on his prices and other stuff in the interview, that if he's lying he's out of business by May. Think he said he's been doing engines for almost 30 yers now, he cant be full of turd and current world champion at the same time, IMO = )

He probably isn't but it isn't in his interests to cut costs and how much do Holder and other top riders spend on engine preparation? Probably more than a lot of middle order riders can earn.

[Humphrey Appleby]

He gives out so much info on his prices and other stuff in the interview, that if he's lying he's out of business by May. Think he said he's been doing engines for almost 30 yers now, he cant be full of turd and current world champion at the same time, IMO = )

He didn't really mention the cost of parts though, or what the markup might be on those. I'd have thought those would add considerably to the bill.

 

'Using the same engines for 5 years' could also be open to interpretation. It may just be the case that's being used, with the entire internals getting replaced on a regular basis.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Humphrey Appleby

[eric i]

He didn't really mention the cost of parts though, or what the markup might be on those. I'd have thought those would add considerably to the bill.

 

'Using the same engines for 5 years' could also be open to interpretation. It may just be the case that's being used, with the entire internals getting replaced on a regular basis.

It might mean its been in storage and only taken out for a few select meetings.

 

It would be interesting if a few of the top riders opened up on the costs of speedway.

[f-s-p]

He didn't really mention the cost of parts though, or what the markup might be on those. I'd have thought those would add considerably to the bill.

 

'Using the same engines for 5 years' could also be open to interpretation. It may just be the case that's being used, with the entire internals getting replaced on a regular basis.

I might remember wrong but some parts prices were in another interview maybe 1-2 years ago, after titanium was brought in..

 

I spoke with PJR last year in Warsaw and as I said I was a reporter I think he might have understood that his stories will go public, so... Joonas Kylmäkorpi was on Twitter last year about an engine that he'd done 120 heats with, and scoring points with it as well. It went in to service and practically nothing was changed, might have been a ball bearing or similar, I do remember he said he put the same piston back in because there just wasn't any wear in the parts. The said motor did seize after the service after JK had crashed in the said meeting just before.... Anyway, 120+ heats with no wear give's an idea how an engine can be used if used properly. It's a lot different than the RUMOURED Jarek Hampel story where he sends his engine to service having ridden one GP weekend with it.

 

The Basic message from PJR IMO is that the engines would last a lot longer if taken care of properly.

[Ray Stadia]

It might mean its been in storage and only taken out for a few select meetings.

 

It would be interesting if a few of the top riders opened up on the costs of speedway.

Things may have changed today, but I do remember years ago, that it was a big deal if a rider bought 1 or 2 new engines. Also, very often, early season poor performance was blamed on a new engine and the rider would switch back to an older engine. At the end of the day, it has been said for many seasons that rider costs needs to come down for the long term survival of the sport, but like most things in life, it is kicked around and booted into the long grass. The only way, in my opinion, is somehow have everyone on board with reducing costs and then gradually introduce change, without causing too much financial loss for all concerned.

[Long Eye]

So Holder and Tai are using 4or 5 yr old engines ( only joking ) when asking Peter Johns about speedway costs it like asking Turkeys to vote for Christmas it sounds a contrived interview that any politician would have been proud of .

He said the engines are still in use. Didn't say who was using them. Some of the riders I have spannered for have scored well in the EL with engines into their 4th season.

[mac101]

What would you class as a standard engine thou there is more in the rider than any engine out there you could put Chris holder on a standard engine and his times would not differ that much maybe a second overall but to the top guys that's the difference between 1st and 2nd it's all about getting the right setup for each track get it wrong and on track it puts strain on the engine riders will always have there favorite engine that works on most tracks but always seem to try get something better to work on the day