Standardised Equipment

[f-s-p]

What would you class as a standard engine thou there is more in the rider than any engine out there you could put Chris holder on a standard engine and his times would not differ that much maybe a second overall but to the top guys that's the difference between 1st and 2nd it's all about getting the right setup for each track get it wrong and on track it puts strain on the engine riders will always have there favorite engine that works on most tracks but always seem to try get something better to work on the day

And this is the exact point many dont understand. So instead of learning to use what they have they buy a crapload of new and shiny bits that they still dont know how to use. Like I used to do...

[Daytripper]

 

 

So Holder and Tai are using 4or 5 yr old engines ( only joking ) when asking Peter Johns about speedway costs it like asking Turkeys to vote for Christmas it sounds a contrived interview that any politician would have been proud of .

Sounds like you don't want to believe anything that doesn't support your own opinion, but for those with a more open mind consider this comment from Kelvin Tatum.

 

At the Lakeside Fans Forum in February Kelvin was saying that over the last couple of decades riders in general have become less mechanically minded. He said you get a lot of riders coming back to th pits after a poor race and saying it was because the bike was rubbish, but if ask them why it was rubbish they can't explain why. Similarly they come in after a win and say the bike was going great great but they can't tell you why. The point is if the rider himself can't explain what's right or wrong the mechanic has to rely on guess work so you get riders doing well one night and badly the next spending money to sort the bike out on guess work.

 

Adam Shields always used say it it cost him £6k to line up against three blokes who had also spent 6k so why couldn't they all line up on bikes that cost £2k, and obviously there is a lot of sense in that, but it's not a simple case of sealing engines.

He didn't really mention the cost of parts though, or what the markup might be on those. I'd have thought those would add considerably to the bill.

'Using the same engines for 5 years' could also be open to interpretation. It may just be the case that's being used, with the entire internals getting replaced on a regular basis.

What internal parts do you think are changed at a routine service or do you have no idea ?

Edited March 12, 2016 by Daytripper

[Humphrey Appleby]

What internal parts do you think are changed at a routine service or do you have no idea ?

At a guess, valve springs, piston, bearings, seals, camshaft chain at a minimum. Longer service intervals possibly con rod, valves and crank shaft etc..

[Ray Stadia]

At a guess, valve springs, piston, bearings, seals, camshaft chain at a minimum. Longer service intervals possibly con rod, valves and crank shaft etc..

All that work is bound to be expensive, if you have a tuner do the work. The trouble with speedway engines is there is a mystery about how to work on them and the reason is, if you obtain a so called manual for a speedway engine and I have a JAP, Weslake and Jawa manual, they tell you nothing, apart from setting the points and the tappets! And yet, they are very very simple. They are no more complicated than a lawnmower engine, but the tuning industry wants riders to believe they are. Any rider could pull their engine apart and put it back together, especially if they are shown once. Much of what is mentioned above by Humphrey, could be handled by most riders with a bit of confidence.

[mac101]

all services are different and depends who does it , if it's the same tuner he will know what has been changed at the last service and the one before that ect as some things wear But still look ok as PJR said most failures are bad maintainance and running there engines longer than they should rather than get it serviced or wait till it blows up before fixing when we started we ran a engine for a full year and I could never put how many laps we did on it before we sent it away now we would never do more than 50 hts as he is riding it harder faster our tuner knows our engines now having looked after them for 2/3 years so knows what needs changed when we send them back and he keeps everything logged most services are around £250 mark £150 labour the rest is parts for a standard service but the last one i got done was £590 as I put a new piston and valves/Spring main bearings as these are the most common parts that fail only just because they have been in there since I got the engine and don't know how long they have been in there before I got it old parts still looked good but like everything else they have a life span better safe than Sorry

Edited March 12, 2016 by mac101

[f-s-p]

All that work is bound to be expensive, if you have a tuner do the work. The trouble with speedway engines is there is a mystery about how to work on them and the reason is, if you obtain a so called manual for a speedway engine and I have a JAP, Weslake and Jawa manual, they tell you nothing, apart from setting the points and the tappets! And yet, they are very very simple. They are no more complicated than a lawnmower engine, but the tuning industry wants riders to believe they are. Any rider could pull their engine apart and put it back together, especially if they are shown once. Much of what is mentioned above by Humphrey, could be handled by most riders with a bit of confidence.

I dont know how long it takes to service an engine, but lets say a full day. With all the travelling and meetings a rider does, I've so far felt that maybe it's better to outsource engine maintenance than do EVERYTHING yourself.

All that work is bound to be expensive, if you have a tuner do the work. The trouble with speedway engines is there is a mystery about how to work on them and the reason is, if you obtain a so called manual for a speedway engine and I have a JAP, Weslake and Jawa manual, they tell you nothing, apart from setting the points and the tappets! And yet, they are very very simple. They are no more complicated than a lawnmower engine, but the tuning industry wants riders to believe they are. Any rider could pull their engine apart and put it back together, especially if they are shown once. Much of what is mentioned above by Humphrey, could be handled by most riders with a bit of confidence.

I dont know how long it takes to service an engine, but lets say a full day. With all the travelling and meetings a rider does, I've so far felt that maybe it's better to outsource engine maintenance than do EVERYTHING yourself.

[Daytripper]

At a guess, valve springs, piston, bearings, seals, camshaft chain at a minimum. Longer service intervals possibly con rod, valves and crank shaft etc..

This is the problem when people jump into the thread without having read the article and start guessing.

 

According to Johns, if it is an engine he built then the charge for labour in a service is £250 plus parts . He claims that if people look after the engine the overall cost is between £380 and £500 plus vat. So a half decent rider would earn more than that in one meeting. He pointed to an engine in for service belonging to Dave Watt that he built 5 years ago and which Watt is still competing on. He also referred to an engine he built for Greg Hancock last year that did 52 heats from new including a GP win and a podium finish. Johns then serviced if before Torun and the service cost £378, which, according to Johns is less than a rear tyre per meeting.

 

The key phrase though is "if people look after the engine ". He says if people get water inside when getting careless with the pressure washer that can put another £150-£500 on the bill, hence the need for education. A lot of mechanical problems seem to be self inflicted by elementary mistakes in looking after the engine.

 

There are lots of interesting comments about reducing power and titanium parts, but people need to read the article before making knee jerk comments.

[Long Eye]

At a guess, valve springs, piston, bearings, seals, camshaft chain at a minimum. Longer service intervals possibly con rod, valves and crank shaft etc..

Wrong for a basic service.

[Humphrey Appleby]

There are lots of interesting comments about reducing power and titanium parts, but people need to read the article before making knee jerk comments.

I did read the article and I thought it was fair enough, but there are still a number of caveats against the prices quoted.

 

As for engines doing several seasons, well I've got a 7 year old race engine that I still use and just about the only original parts are the case and head. It's like the old broom that's had the handle and brush replaced, so that's why I query it.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Humphrey Appleby

[Long Eye]

I did read the article and I thought it was fair enough, but there are still a number of caveats against the prices quoted.

 

As for engines doing several seasons, well I've got a 7 year old race engine that I still use and just about the only original parts are the case and head. It's like the old broom that's had the handle and brush replaced, so that's why I query it.

Just got an engine back from PJR today. It was new last season and this was its second service. About all it's had changed from new are basic consumable parts, rings, big end bearings and gaskets. It is important to look after them well between and during meetings. Good oil and air filters, warm them up correctly, set the carbs properly and don't get water and grit in them when washing the bike.

[eric i]

This is the problem when people jump into the thread without having read the article and start guessing.

 

According to Johns, if it is an engine he built then the charge for labour in a service is £250 plus parts . He claims that if people look after the engine the overall cost is between £380 and £500 plus vat. So a half decent rider would earn more than that in one meeting. He pointed to an engine in for service belonging to Dave Watt that he built 5 years ago and which Watt is still competing on. He also referred to an engine he built for Greg Hancock last year that did 52 heats from new including a GP win and a podium finish. Johns then serviced if before Torun and the service cost £378, which, according to Johns is less than a rear tyre per meeting.

 

The key phrase though is "if people look after the engine ". He says if people get water inside when getting careless with the pressure washer that can put another £150-£500 on the bill, hence the need for education. A lot of mechanical problems seem to be self inflicted by elementary mistakes in looking after the engine.

 

There are lots of interesting comments about reducing power and titanium parts, but people need to read the article before making knee jerk comments.

It was interesting article but he only gave examples of engines that had lasted an exceptionally long time, he didn't say how many competitive races the average engine lasts and how often it comes in for a service.

 

From what I hear, top riders are often sending engines back because they not giving them the performance they expected.

 

I take the point that looking after the machinery could save some money however I think the money saved would be small compared to what could be saved by switching to standardised engines.

Edited March 12, 2016 by eric i

[martinmauger]

I was once chatting to an unamed, current Premeir League heat leader with Elite League experience about his bike and asked about the tappet, or valve, clearences as I thought his bike sounded a bit 'top endy' i.e slight rattle coming from the cylinder head. He said he didn't know as his dad took care of such things. I went on to ask him, for my own interest not to try and catch him out at all, about the clutch adjustment (free play in the cable, riders almost always adjust this on the start line), chain adjustment & lubricating, tyre pressure, dropping (changing) the oil, changing the air filter and he just kept saying "dunno, my dad does all of that stuff". So I asked about filling the tank as some riders re-fill it after a start and 30yds just before the re-run, was it filled to the brim or the bottom of the filler neck (turns out it's the latter), he replied "like I said mate, I dunno about any of the mechanical stuff, my dad does it all for me, I just ride the bike". He almost always scores well and is never without a team so I guess works for him, that said not every rider will know, or possibly wants to know, about all aspects of the bike but his lack of knowledge in regard to basic maintenance really surprised me....

Edited March 12, 2016 by Martin Mauger

[mac101]

It was interesting article but he only gave examples of engines that had lasted an exceptionally long time, he didn't say how many competitive races the average engine lasts and how often it comes in for a service.

 

From what I hear, top riders are often sending engines back because they not giving them the performance they expected.

 

I take the point that looking after the machinery could save some money however I think the money saved would be small compared to what could be saved by switching to standardised engines.

 

I and another ex pl rider spannered for pl heat leader last year and if the rider had a bad first race he would race into pits saying bikes not working right and to change the jet shorten bike and knock back the timing a bit ex rider would tell me to take link out the rear chain and he would kid on he was doing The rest the when he went out next heat and win it by half a straight the ex rider knew where he was going wrong most things that go wrong are blamed on the bike when it's in the rider head

 

As for a standard where do you start there are several types engine offset baby offset standard several types of flywheels heavy big small eccentric same as con rods different lengths ,loads of different types of Pistons loads of cams different weight valve springs that is where a good tuner who works with his riders makes his money putting the right things to suit the rider

[Gresham]

Can I ask a few questions of the knowledgeable on here...on whether the below could or could not work?

 

The BSPA do a deal with an engine company, to provide bulk standard 'sealed' engines to Clubs within the leagues.

 

The Clubs buy and are provided with enough engines for each meeting.

 

The Clubs employ their own mechanics...team mechanics.

 

The riders turn up to the meeting, with rolling chassis.

 

The referee, managers, riders meet and draw lots for each engine.

 

Engines are fitted to riders rolling chassis by team mechanics.

 

Obviously...clutch, sprockets etc adjustable to riders preference.

 

Engines examined during and after meeting.

 

Max two engines per rider...there after if EF...the rider has to use a team mates bike.

 

One rear tyre per meeting.

 

Obviously this is a simplified version, but hopefully you get my drift.

 

This would only be done for Club events.

 

Obviously rider costs would be lower...Engines would be serviced at an agreed time....rider wages would be lower to cover clubs costs.

 

Any Individual events could be left as they are now.

 

Any thoughts?

Edited March 12, 2016 by Gresham

[mac101]

cant see any club buying 16 new engines even buying 16 you would never get 2 engines that work the same employing mechanics paying for services as they would all have to be done at the same time to much money for clubs to fork out as all the riders are self employed so its really up to them to buy them and to keep their engines well maintained most do if they are scoring points and making money most riders will keep their engines and buy new rolling chassis each year that,s also where riders loss a lot of money durning the season when they crash sometimes its not their fault and wreck it they can be straightened but sometimes they have to be binned a set of forks and a diamond could set you back £500plus and its not even your fault

Edited March 12, 2016 by mac101

[E I Addio]

Can I ask a few questions of the knowledgeable on here...on whether the below could or could not work?

 

The BSPA do a deal with an engine company, to provide bulk standard 'sealed' engines to Clubs within the leagues.

 

s?

The most popular engine in this country is GM. GM do not sell ready to race engines. They have to be sent to a tuner to assemble in race able condition. You woukd need several different tuners to build them for a whole league, and no two hand built engines would be quite the same. That is your first problem.

 

To supply 7 man team with 2 engines per rider would cost at least £50k. Where would cash strapped clubs find that sort of capital outlay?

 

One rear tyre per meeting.

 

That is the tile already so no saving there.

[Gresham]

In answer to a few...

 

The clubs could find the money by not paying out so much in contracts.

 

As for engines not being 100% exactly the same...I don't see that being a problem. They aren't now...I'd say 'standardised' engines would be closer to being the same, than what each individual rider competes against one another now.

 

As for what is popular now...that needs to be thrown out the window.

 

Speedway is slowly dying...each year the authorities pussy foot around, tinkering here, tinkering there...I've never known a sport tinker so much.

 

The whole sport needs a massive shake up and needs to go back to basics.

 

The problem I see in this sport...is there are too many people not willing to change...always saying 'It couldn't work'...and too many people trying to make a buck from it. Too many 'hangers on'.

 

It really does need to go back to basics and extreme measures in my book.

 

Everything about this sport is complicated...from the rules, starting out as a rider, regulations...and as for any newbie understanding what's going on, you need a diploma in mathematics.

 

People have become so engrossed in it...that they can't see the wood for the trees.

[Long Eye]

In answer to a few...

 

 

 

As for engines not being 100% exactly the same...I don't see that being a problem. They aren't now...I'd say 'standardised' engines would be closer to being the same, than what each individual rider competes against one another now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You've really thought that bit through have you?

[Gresham]

You've really thought that bit through have you?

So you are saying the engine of an elite number 1 GP rider is similar to that of a young reserve?

[Long Eye]

So you are saying the engine of an elite number 1 GP rider is similar to that of a young reserve?

Sometimes. But also riders prefer different set-ups to get around the same track on the same night. One might find extra heavy flywheels suits his style whilst his team mate prefers very light flywheels. The idea of having a pool of engines allocated randomly is to ensure each rider would be on the same footing. Not all 'tuning' is to increase power.