The Good,the Bad And The Ugly

[iris123]

Was thinking due to the recent debate about false information on the net and even in speedway mags and books,who are the good guys who research and write great articles and who are the journalists who just lazily pass on wrong info to a new generation?

 

I know Cyril May was mentioned just a couple of days ago and I do agree that I read his historical articles with interest.But I do recall mentioning on here an incident he wrote about when supposedly Billy Galloway and Keith McKay came to London and rode some demonstration laps for the press at Stamford Bridge(?)in 1927.This was a bit of pre-publicity before the arrival of the rest of the speedway pioneers from Australia.Now it seems subsequent posters debunked this if I remember rightly.Even if this was a mistake that doesn't make Cyril a bad historian or were his articles full of similar mistakes?

 

And wasn't there an author associated with West Ham who had quite a bad reputation?

 

So who are the good and bad guys

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Was thinking due to the recent debate about false information on the net and even in speedway mags and books,who are the good guys who research and write great articles and who are the journalists who just lazily pass on wrong info to a new generation?

 

I know Cyril May was mentioned just a couple of days ago and I do agree that I read his historical articles with interest.But I do recall mentioning on here an incident he wrote about when supposedly Billy Galloway and Keith McKay came to London and rode some demonstration laps for the press at Stamford Bridge(?)in 1927.This was a bit of pre-publicity before the arrival of the rest of the speedway pioneers from Australia.Now it seems subsequent posters debunked this if I remember rightly.Even if this was a mistake that doesn't make Cyril a bad historian or were his articles full of similar mistakes?

 

And wasn't there an author associated with West Ham who had quite a bad reputation?

 

So who are the good and bad guys

 

 

 

 

I wonder if you have anyone specific in mind Doug MacFarlane? You don't usually start these sort of threads without having a specific target - that's your posting style.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Guest

[iris123]

Thought I was one of the famous 17 John?

 

At the moment I gave an example and wanted to hear from others and leave things open.If you have an opinion John I would love to hear it,otherwise I didn't really want the thread littered with waffle......

[pugwash]

Thought I was one of the famous 17 John?

 

At the moment I gave an example and wanted to hear from others and leave things open.If you have an opinion John I would love to hear it,otherwise I didn't really want the thread littered with waffle......

I'm getting a Deja Vu feeling.

btw Wasn't Jack Keen the scoundrel with the bad reputation? I may be wrong, so may names flying around on here.

regards

#17

[norbold]

I didn't know the McKay/Galloway 1927 film was debunked. When was that?

 

P.S. Don't get me started on Brian Belton's Hammerin' Round!

Edited January 7, 2016 by norbold

[iris123]

I didn't know the McKay/Galloway 1927 film was debunked. When was that?

I thought one of the Australian historians mentioned there was no record of them coming over on a boat in 1927 and that they travelled with the group in 1928.Might be mistaken,but I was quite disappointed at the time that this incident seemingly never happened.Sure maybe the same person mentioned that McKay wasn't really a 'proper' speedway rider all in the same discussion.Is my memory that bad?

 

It did seem absolutely reasonable to send a couple of riders on in front to get the public interested in the coming attraction of motorcycle dirt track racing.....

Edited January 7, 2016 by iris123

[BL65]

Was thinking due to the recent debate about false information on the net and even in speedway mags and books,who are the good guys who research and write great articles and who are the journalists who just lazily pass on wrong info to a new generation?

 

I know Cyril May was mentioned just a couple of days ago and I do agree that I read his historical articles with interest.But I do recall mentioning on here an incident he wrote about when supposedly Billy Galloway and Keith McKay came to London and rode some demonstration laps for the press at Stamford Bridge(?)in 1927.This was a bit of pre-publicity before the arrival of the rest of the speedway pioneers from Australia.Now it seems subsequent posters debunked this if I remember rightly.Even if this was a mistake that doesn't make Cyril a bad historian or were his articles full of similar mistakes?

 

And wasn't there an author associated with West Ham who had quite a bad reputation?

 

So who are the good and bad guys

 

 

 

 

The subject of the arrival in this country of Messrs Galloway and McKay was covered at some length in the 'Footage of West Ham' thread a few years ago, when a 1927 or 1928 filmed demonstration at Stamford Bridge was debated.

 

There was a report 'From our London Correspondent' in the Western Morning News on Thursday, 16th February 1928 which said:

 

"London is to try its new sport on Saturday, for a party of Australian dirt track riders are expected to give a demonstration of motor cycling on cinders. Those who have seen it say that dirt track racing is the most thrilling spectacle that sport has provided. We are told of expert riders who wear steel boots so that they can scrape the cinders on the bends without lacerating a foot or twisting an ankle. The riders streak round the unbanked bends at such alarming angles that they get very near to the horizontal, and it is recorded that one man had to retire during a race in Melbourne (Australia) because he had badly scraped his knuckles on the track."

 

I assume that the Saturday referred to in the newspaper item would have been 18th February 1928.

[Guest]

 

And wasn't there an author associated with West Ham who had quite a bad reputation?

 

 

 

I'm getting a Deja Vu feeling.

btw Wasn't Jack Keen the scoundrel with the bad reputation? I may be wrong, so may names flying around on here.

 

 

 

Don't get me started on Brian Belton's Hammerin' Round!

 

I think the third quote by norbold gives the answer in regard to the West Ham query by iris123 and much later by pugwash. For more details on the book visit

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OvA6AwAAQBAJ&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&dq=Hammerin'+Round++by+Brian+Belton&source=bl&ots=2CUrRCe9LM&sig=a6a2_jL1ejpmRh6qtvk-g3jQD4c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiP-P2YkZjKAhWFkQ8KHcGmC_UQ6AEIIzAD#v=onepage&q=Hammerin'%20Round%20%20by%20Brian%20Belton&f=false

 

Elsewhere, sadly, it looks as though pugwash has got it wrong again when he mentions 'Jack Keen' as a 'West Ham author.' It was just an illegal name used by yours truly ABOUT SIX YEARS AGO for some posts on the BSF re Johnnie Hoskins and the start of speedway in Australia.

The Jack Keen name was banned by the BSF and the culprit user - yours truly - had a deserved and lengthy BSF ban. Times have moved on elsewhere in regard to that offence except seemingly for poor old pugwash!

Edited January 7, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

I didn't know the McKay/Galloway 1927 film was debunked. When was that?

 

P.S. Don't get me started on Brian Belton's Hammerin' Round!

 

Can any member please help by providing a Link to the original BSF debate in regard to Brian Belton's 2002 book 'Hammerin' Round'.

[norbold]

I thought one of the Australian historians mentioned there was no record of them coming over on a boat in 1927 and that they travelled with the group in 1928.Might be mistaken,but I was quite disappointed at the time that this incident seemingly never happened.Sure maybe the same person mentioned that McKay wasn't really a 'proper' speedway rider all in the same discussion.Is my memory that bad?

 

It did seem absolutely reasonable to send a couple of riders on in front to get the public interested in the coming attraction of motorcycle dirt track racing.....

Galloway and McKay certainly came over before the main group. They rode at the first High Beech meeting. The others didn't arrive till some time later. Ross Garrigan said that there is no record of McKay riding in Australia before coming to England. I'm not able to get hold of my references at the moment but I'll try and post a bit more about Galloway and McKay later.

[Guest]

Galloway and McKay certainly came over before the main group. They rode at the first High Beech meeting. The others didn't arrive till some time later. Ross Garrigan said that there is no record of McKay riding in Australia before coming to England. I'm not able to get hold of my references at the moment but I'll try and post a bit more about Galloway and McKay later.

 

norbold I am certain that I have seen a photo claimed to be taken at High Beech in 1928 (maybe the first meeting) which shows McKay and Galloway adjusting their boot/boots?

[norbold]

norbold I am certain that I have seen a photo claimed to be taken at High Beech in 1928 (maybe the first meeting) which shows McKay and Galloway adjusting their boot/boots?

I don't know about that particular photo but there are certainly photos of both of them at High Beech.

[Guest]

 

 

 

 

 

I think the third quote by norbold gives the answer in regard to the West Ham query by iris123 and much later by pugwash. For more details on the book visit

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OvA6AwAAQBAJ&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&dq=Hammerin'+Round++by+Brian+Belton&source=bl&ots=2CUrRCe9LM&sig=a6a2_jL1ejpmRh6qtvk-g3jQD4c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiP-P2YkZjKAhWFkQ8KHcGmC_UQ6AEIIzAD#v=onepage&q=Hammerin'%20Round%20%20by%20Brian%20Belton&f=false

 

Elsewhere, sadly, it looks as though pugwash has got it wrong again when he mentions 'Jack Keen' as a 'West Ham author.' It was just an illegal name used by yours truly ABOUT SIX YEARS AGO for some posts on the BSF re Johnnie Hoskins and the start of speedway in Australia.

The Jack Keen name was banned by the BSF and the culprit user - yours truly - had a deserved and lengthy BSF ban. Times have moved on elsewhere in regard to that offence except seemingly for poor old pugwash!

 

The book 'Speedway in London" by Norman Jacobs gives definitive information about London tracks either side of WW2 with iinterresting data on West Ham. It includes much definitive commentary on the Hammers.

https://books.google.co.uk/.../Speedway_in_London.html...

Edited January 7, 2016 by Guest

[norbold]

Sorry this is going to be a bit long, but it's taken from an article I wrote for the Speedway Star a few years ago and shows McKay and Galloway's part in the first meeting at High Beech. Before submitting it I had both Ross Garrigan and Nigel Bird, in my opinion two of speedway's finest historians, go through it and make comments. They agreed with my final draft. So here goes!

 

In 1927, Captain Olliver and Captain Geoffrey Malins, who were undertaking a round the world motorcycle trip sponsored by motor cycle manufacturers, C.F. Temple Motors, visited A J Hunting's new Davies Park track in Brisbane. After seeing these top riders in first class surroundings Olliver cabled his brother-in-law, Jimmy Baxter, who was the managing director of Temple Motors, saying that speedway was making big money in Australia and he felt sure it might do the same in Britain if organised properly. Baxter then got in touch with the Australian promoter Keith McKay. McKay had tried his hand at racing but had not been very successful. Instead he had turned to promoting

 

Jack Hill-Bailey was a good friend of Jimmy Baxter’s and was therefore aware that Baxter was interested in introducing speedway to this country. Consequently, he reached an agreement with him for the meeting at High Beech, originally due to take place on 9 November 1927, to be jointly organised by his own Ilford Club and Baxter’s Metropolis Club. The ACU turned down the proposal on the grounds that 9 November was a Sunday. However, they added that if a new application was made asking permission for a closed meeting, that is one restricted to club members only, they would grant it. Consequently Hill-Bailey reapplied for permission to run a closed meeting on what has probably become the most famous date in British speedway history, 19 February 1928.

 

In the meantime, Baxter’s Australian contact, Keith McKay, had set sail for England on the SS Oronsay on 10 December 1927 to join up with him as promoter and director of a new company dedicated to promoting speedway, Dirt Track Speedways Ltd. While on board the Oronsay, McKay met up with another speedway rider, Billy Galloway, who was working his passage as the ship’s barber. It is not known for certain whether Galloway knew about plans for the introduction of speedway in Britain or whether his involvement just came about by a chance meeting with McKay on board the Oronsay Whatever the reason for his being on board the Oronsay, Galloway joined McKay and they both went to see Baxter on their arrival.

 

Although no longer involved as joint promoter, Baxter was still taking a prominent role in the organisation of the High Beech meeting and as a precursor to it, he arranged for McKay and Galloway to give a demonstration of the art of real speedway at Stamford Bridge, the home of Chelsea Football Club, early in 1928. This demonstration was filmed by Pathe News and must certainly have been the first time proper speedway was seen in this country. It is probable that this film, being a Pathe News feature, would have been shown in cinemas around the country and certainly in London, thus giving a massive publicity boost to the High Beech meeting and could explain why so many people turned up on that cold February day in 1928 to witness what is now generally accepted as the first speedway meeting in Great Britain. Hill-Bailey had planned for around 2000 spectators but in fact over 20,000 attended.

Two of the riders at this meeting were, of course, the Australian pair, McKay and Galloway, and one of the officials was Jimmy Baxter.

 

After these pioneering events, the Australians began to arrive. Hunting had already arranged for most of his top stars to come to Britain and on 10 April 1928, the SS Oronsay left its final port of call in Australia when it set sail from Freemantle with riders of the calibre of Vic Huxley, Frank Arthur, Frank Pearce, Charlie Spinks and Dick Smythe on board. Also on board was the other well-known promoter, Johnnie Hoskins, with his riders, Ron Johnson, Charlie Datson and Sig Schlam.

[iris123]

Maybe that is it.I feel sure the SS article stated they held the demonstration in December 1927.Think this was dismissed.

[BL65]

Sorry this is going to be a bit long, but it's taken from an article I wrote for the Speedway Star a few years ago and shows McKay and Galloway's part in the first meeting at High Beech. Before submitting it I had both Ross Garrigan and Nigel Bird, in my opinion two of speedway's finest historians, go through it and make comments. They agreed with my final draft. So here goes!

 

In 1927, Captain Olliver and Captain Geoffrey Malins, who were undertaking a round the world motorcycle trip sponsored by motor cycle manufacturers, C.F. Temple Motors, visited A J Hunting's new Davies Park track in Brisbane. After seeing these top riders in first class surroundings Olliver cabled his brother-in-law, Jimmy Baxter, who was the managing director of Temple Motors, saying that speedway was making big money in Australia and he felt sure it might do the same in Britain if organised properly. Baxter then got in touch with the Australian promoter Keith McKay. McKay had tried his hand at racing but had not been very successful. Instead he had turned to promoting

 

Jack Hill-Bailey was a good friend of Jimmy Baxter’s and was therefore aware that Baxter was interested in introducing speedway to this country. Consequently, he reached an agreement with him for the meeting at High Beech, originally due to take place on 9 November 1927, to be jointly organised by his own Ilford Club and Baxter’s Metropolis Club. The ACU turned down the proposal on the grounds that 9 November was a Sunday. However, they added that if a new application was made asking permission for a closed meeting, that is one restricted to club members only, they would grant it. Consequently Hill-Bailey reapplied for permission to run a closed meeting on what has probably become the most famous date in British speedway history, 19 February 1928.

 

In the meantime, Baxter’s Australian contact, Keith McKay, had set sail for England on the SS Oronsay on 10 December 1927 to join up with him as promoter and director of a new company dedicated to promoting speedway, Dirt Track Speedways Ltd. While on board the Oronsay, McKay met up with another speedway rider, Billy Galloway, who was working his passage as the ship’s barber. It is not known for certain whether Galloway knew about plans for the introduction of speedway in Britain or whether his involvement just came about by a chance meeting with McKay on board the Oronsay Whatever the reason for his being on board the Oronsay, Galloway joined McKay and they both went to see Baxter on their arrival.

 

Although no longer involved as joint promoter, Baxter was still taking a prominent role in the organisation of the High Beech meeting and as a precursor to it, he arranged for McKay and Galloway to give a demonstration of the art of real speedway at Stamford Bridge, the home of Chelsea Football Club, early in 1928. This demonstration was filmed by Pathe News and must certainly have been the first time proper speedway was seen in this country. It is probable that this film, being a Pathe News feature, would have been shown in cinemas around the country and certainly in London, thus giving a massive publicity boost to the High Beech meeting and could explain why so many people turned up on that cold February day in 1928 to witness what is now generally accepted as the first speedway meeting in Great Britain. Hill-Bailey had planned for around 2000 spectators but in fact over 20,000 attended.

Two of the riders at this meeting were, of course, the Australian pair, McKay and Galloway, and one of the officials was Jimmy Baxter.

 

After these pioneering events, the Australians began to arrive. Hunting had already arranged for most of his top stars to come to Britain and on 10 April 1928, the SS Oronsay left its final port of call in Australia when it set sail from Freemantle with riders of the calibre of Vic Huxley, Frank Arthur, Frank Pearce, Charlie Spinks and Dick Smythe on board. Also on board was the other well-known promoter, Johnnie Hoskins, with his riders, Ron Johnson, Charlie Datson and Sig Schlam.

The newspaper report of 16th February 1928 (see post #7 in this thread) suggests that the demonstration at Stamford Bridge took place as late as 18th February and if that was the case then the impact on the attendance on 19th February was dramatic.

[norbold]

The newspaper report of 16th February 1928 (see post #7 in this thread) suggests that the demonstration at Stamford Bridge took place as late as 18th February and if that was the case then the impact on the attendance on 19th February was dramatic.

Well, yes, that would certainly seem to rule out Pathe News as being the reason for the large attendance at High Beech. I wonder how many people actually attended the demonstration at Stamford Bridge on 18 Feb and were so enthused that they decided to go and watch a whole meeting the following day.

[iris123]

All a mystery.Are there any examples of advertising posters or newspaper ads etc to get the crowd interested?

 

At least we have two more names in Ross Garrigan and Nigel Bird(who I must admit is a new name to me)

[arnieg]

Sorry this is going to be a bit long, but it's taken from an article I wrote for the Speedway Star a few years ago and shows McKay and Galloway's part in the first meeting at High Beech. Before submitting it I had both Ross Garrigan and Nigel Bird, in my opinion two of speedway's finest historians, go through it and make comments. They agreed with my final draft.

I found huge discrepancies between the Speedway Star and Reading Evening Post descriptions of Geoff Curtis's final meeting. I went to Ross Garrigan and got a third version almost entirely at odds with the other two. I took Ross's account for three reasons:

 

1) he's a well regarded speedway historian

2) generated contemporaneously; and

3) located physically close to the event.

 

I'd also endorse norbold's comments about the recollections of the central protagonists not being the most reliable.

[norbold]

At least we have two more names in Ross Garrigan and Nigel Bird(who I must admit is a new name to me)

Nigel used to be quite active on here under his "handle" which I can't remember at the moment. He took a very active part in particular along with Ross and me in arguing with BFD and the six or seven manifestations of a certain former speedway magazine editor over Johnnie Hoskins' claim to have invented speedway.

 

He was also on Jim Blanchard's history of speedway website and came up with a lot of really interesting information. He used to spend many hours in the Newspaper Library digging out obscure information. He may still do for all I know!