Notoriously Dirty Riders

[Tsunami]

3 hours ago, steve roberts said:

Damn awful commentator!

Lubos left plenty of room for Jason and he unfortunately picked up a lot of grip. Racing accident. IMO.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Tsunami

[Triple.H.]

27 minutes ago, Tsunami said:

Lubos left plenty of room for Jason and he unfortunately pick up a lot of grip. Racing accident. IMO.

I'd agree, looked to me that LT was trying to leave room to race, back end went round a bit to far, due to rider error or a patchy track

[steve roberts]

2 hours ago, Tsunami said:

Lubos left plenty of room for Jason and he unfortunately pick up a lot of grip. Racing accident. IMO.

Yes I have to agree. That would have been my call too.

[Wolfie456]

On 12/28/2015 at 8:27 PM, BWitcher said:

 

Howe tried to lean in on Sam and came off more like.

 

Nothing more than a racing incident.. and Howe didn't break his leg.

 

Worst move I have ever seen, as I have mentioned on other threads was Matej Zagar on Buzz Burrows. Totally pre-meditated and highly dangerous. Never seen anything close to it before or after in hundreds of meetings attended.

Yes that move by Zagar on Burrows halfway down backstraight sticks in my memory.

As for other dirty/hard riders I remember B. Persson, P Erikson breaking K Tatums leg at mommore,J Esklidsen,S Gresham ,G Guglielmi,T, Hunt,R Matuosek not forgetting Wolves most hated own rider N Pedersen 

[uk_martin]

18 hours ago, Tsunami said:

Lubos left plenty of room for Jason and he unfortunately picked up a lot of grip. Racing accident. IMO.

If you slow the video down you'll see a definite flick of the Tomicek's back wheel into Lyons which causes Lyons to career into the fence. It doesn't really matter how much room there is outside, if you are pushed from the inside you are going to suffer the consequences. All that room on the outside does is give you a longer route into the fence.

[steve roberts]

15 minutes ago, uk_martin said:

If you slow the video down you'll see a definite flick of the Tomicek's back wheel into Lyons which causes Lyons to career into the fence. It doesn't really matter how much room there is outside, if you are pushed from the inside you are going to suffer the consequences. All that room on the outside does is give you a longer route into the fence.

Always difficult ones to call when there's an incident on the opposite side of the track to the referee. Lyons left plenty of room riding a wide line going into the bend which Tomicek took advantage of and, yes, there was evidence of a flick of the back wheel but was he, by then, in front? Who'd be a referee? As a matter of interest do referees now have access to instant replays?

As a footnote I've recently acquired the DVD "Before Air Fences" which I haven't seen yet and when I do I will pause after each race and make a decision and see if it was any different to the one called? Give me something to view from an academic angle!

Edited February 8, 2021 by steve roberts

[E I Addio]

There are two things that are constantly overlooked when considering so-called dirty riding. The first is speedway and thinking distance . Even on the slowest part of a small track the riders are exiting the bends at around 30 mph which has a thinking distance of around 9 metres per second. In other words a rider will travel something like 5-6 metres between thinking of something and starting to do it. If a rider wants to execute a dirty move he somehow has to work out where both he and the opponent will be on the track some distance ahead. Frankly I don’t think many so called instances of dirty riding really are. They are more often stupid, wild or over enthusiastic, often with Adrenalin taking over. It is after all , a very tough sport.

The other thing is who decides where the border line is between hard riding and dirty riding. I remember Lee Richardson telling me years ago that at the top level, all of them , even Mr Nice Guy Greg Hancock are very, very hard men, and if they weren’t they wouldn’t be at the top. So once again we come back to the fact that it is a very tough sport, and at times the border between hard and dirty can easily and inadvertently be crossed.

[BrizHeathen]

Zagar has a nasty streak. Seen him turn right on riders at Kirky lane..

Ronnie Pedersen was a nut case when he rode for Peterborough..

Others that spring to mind are Preben Eriksen and Tim Hunt, but there's a fine line between hard and dirty riding....Freddie Lindgren is riding that line.

[spin king]

1 hour ago, uk_martin said:

If you slow the video down you'll see a definite flick of the Tomicek's back wheel into Lyons which causes Lyons to career into the fence. It doesn't really matter how much room there is outside, if you are pushed from the inside you are going to suffer the consequences. All that room on the outside does is give you a longer route into the fence.

I think that both instances you have to ask was it intentional?

The Morris/ McAllen incident, Morris is behind McAllen he can clearly see where McAllen, certainly looked suspect.

The Tomicek/ Lyons incident Tomicek is in front and unless he had eyes in the back of his head would not know exactly where Lyons was.

As for exclusion both Morris and Tomicek should have been excluded.  

[steve roberts]

11 minutes ago, E I Addio said:

There are two things that are constantly overlooked when considering so-called dirty riding. The first is speedway and thinking distance . Even on the slowest part of a small track the riders are exiting the bends at around 30 mph which has a thinking distance of around 9 metres per second. In other words a rider will travel something like 5-6 metres between thinking of something and starting to do it. If a rider wants to execute a dirty move he somehow has to work out where both he and the opponent will be on the track some distance ahead. Frankly I don’t think many so called instances of dirty riding really are. They are more often stupid, wild or over enthusiastic, often with Adrenalin taking over. It is after all , a very tough sport.

The other thing is who decides where the border line is between hard riding and dirty riding. I remember Lee Richardson telling me years ago that at the top level, all of them , even Mr Nice Guy Greg Hancock are very, very hard men, and if they weren’t they wouldn’t be at the top. So once again we come back to the fact that it is a very tough sport, and at times the border between hard and dirty can easily and inadvertently be crossed.

I think that's a pretty fair assessment overal. I was never a fan of Simon Cross (who infamously walked out on Oxford when he was set upon by team mate Ashley Pullen in the pits!) but Cradley fans idolised him with that awful nickname of "Pyscho". His riding often went beyond reproach and I remember when, in the same meeting, he took both Simon Wigg and Andy Grahame out on the first bend in different races leaving them with no where to go. I would say quite openly that it was premeditated having been at the meeting and having the DVD also...Simon Wigg was less than complimentary about his actions.

[BrizHeathen]

6 minutes ago, steve roberts said:

Cradley fans idolised him with that awful nickname of "Pyscho". 

I'm not saying he's dirty but Lambert's nickname 'Ruthless' isn't one i'd choose personally.

The lads talented no doubt but he does chase back wheels.

[Tsunami]

3 hours ago, BrizHeathen said:

I'm not saying he's dirty but Lambert's nickname 'Ruthless' isn't one i'd choose personally.

The lads talented no doubt but he does chase back wheels.

He acquired that name by Roy, the presenter at Newcastle, who gave all Diamonds riders nicknames for his commentary. He didn't earn it as, as you say, he does chases back wheels and doesn't give up.

[BluPanther]

3 hours ago, BrizHeathen said:

I'm not saying he's dirty but Lambert's nickname 'Ruthless' isn't one i'd choose personally.

The lads talented no doubt but he does chase back wheels.

Lambert's nickname came from his days of helping his father on work sites as a young lad, its creation is not related to his speedway career...

[TheWatcher]

6 hours ago, steve roberts said:

Always difficult ones to call when there's an incident on the opposite side of the track to the referee. Lyons left plenty of room riding a wide line going into the bend which Tomicek took advantage of and, yes, there was evidence of a flick of the back wheel but was he, by then, in front? Who'd be a referee? As a matter of interest do referees now have access to instant replays?

As a footnote I've recently acquired the DVD "Before Air Fences" which I haven't seen yet and when I do I will pause after each race and make a decision and see if it was any different to the one called? Give me something to view from an academic angle!

About 10 years ago I was lucky enough to watch a meeting from the ref's box at a current British track. I say 'lucky' as it was a foul night in October with a perishing, unforgiving wind straight from the Arctic! I can't remember if the windows in the box opened, but given the weather they stayed firmly closed that night.

Anyway, anyone who has watched speedway through glass knows it gives a slightly distorted view, and even though I have average eyesight (and therefore much better than most refs if the old joke is true, ha!) I simply could not identify the riders on the back straight. All the helmet colours looked the same. And if there had been an incident going into the third bend, I simply wouldn't have had a clue who was at fault as the view was that poor.

I have no idea if it is still like that there, but instant replays would have been the only way I could have made a decision that night had I been the ref. As we see every week with VAR in football, though, even with the aid of technology there are still some mind-boggling verdicts. What that night did do was help me understand the difficulties speedway refs have in making the right call on a split-second incident which could involve two or more riders 100 yards or so away on a dimly-lit track.

[Pinny]

You have the odd fall out now but the rider feuds back in the day were great too. 
 

I remember Paul Fry nutting Phil Morris at Swindon back in around 2000 ish after Morris had pulled a naughty move on him. And who can forget Anders Henriksson and Carl Stonehewers fall outs?

 

What made that great was Anders used to beat him at Newport and it really got under Stoneys skin. Hated being beaten by him. 
 

 

[steve roberts]

35 minutes ago, Pinny said:

You have the odd fall out now but the rider feuds back in the day were great too. 
 

I remember Paul Fry nutting Phil Morris at Swindon back in around 2000 ish after Morris had pulled a naughty move on him. And who can forget Anders Henriksson and Carl Stonehewers fall outs?

 

What made that great was Anders used to beat him at Newport and it really got under Stoneys skin. Hated being beaten by him. 
 

 

Kelvin Tatum and Neil Evitts had issues with each other I recall?

[Vince]

22 hours ago, uk_martin said:

If you slow the video down you'll see a definite flick of the Tomicek's back wheel into Lyons which causes Lyons to career into the fence. It doesn't really matter how much room there is outside, if you are pushed from the inside you are going to suffer the consequences. All that room on the outside does is give you a longer route into the fence.

That flick was caused by a bit more throttle to point the bike down the straight, I don't see any way in which he deliberately did that to hit Lyons. He didn't know exactly where he was for starters.

As for the Phil Morris incident it's been done to death but I don't see that as anything other than a racing incident either, two riders rode lines that converged on the exit.

20 hours ago, E I Addio said:

There are two things that are constantly overlooked when considering so-called dirty riding. The first is speedway and thinking distance . Even on the slowest part of a small track the riders are exiting the bends at around 30 mph which has a thinking distance of around 9 metres per second. In other words a rider will travel something like 5-6 metres between thinking of something and starting to do it. If a rider wants to execute a dirty move he somehow has to work out where both he and the opponent will be on the track some distance ahead. Frankly I don’t think many so called instances of dirty riding really are. They are more often stupid, wild or over enthusiastic, often with Adrenalin taking over. It is after all , a very tough sport.

The other thing is who decides where the border line is between hard riding and dirty riding. I remember Lee Richardson telling me years ago that at the top level, all of them , even Mr Nice Guy Greg Hancock are very, very hard men, and if they weren’t they wouldn’t be at the top. So once again we come back to the fact that it is a very tough sport, and at times the border between hard and dirty can easily and inadvertently be crossed.

I agree totally with that, I think there are very few deliberately dirty moves in Speedway. The higher the level the harder moves can be without disastrous consequences but at the end of the day it is a very small world and riders deliberately riding dirty will soon be getting retaliation from all angles.

Having said that I do think the one thing that you see, mostly at lower levels, that should always result in disqualification whether it results in an accident or not is turning right. The move can and does cause the type of accidents that will often result in serious injury and there is no sensible reason for it. Luckily it's not common but I have seen a couple of riders who have used it as a blocking move and possibly not even realised how dangerous it is.

[OGT]

Regarding the Alan Grahame, Chris Morton incident. If Grahame had taken a BV rider to the fence earlier in the meeting, then surely someone should have done the same to him, not put him through it onto the dog track, breaking his thigh and finishing his season and taking away one of the few bright sparks the Brummies fans had that season.

The "punishment" didn't fit the "crime" in this instance. 

[Sings4Speedway]

On 2/8/2021 at 3:42 PM, E I Addio said:

There are two things that are constantly overlooked when considering so-called dirty riding. The first is speedway and thinking distance . Even on the slowest part of a small track the riders are exiting the bends at around 30 mph which has a thinking distance of around 9 metres per second. In other words a rider will travel something like 5-6 metres between thinking of something and starting to do it. If a rider wants to execute a dirty move he somehow has to work out where both he and the opponent will be on the track some distance ahead. Frankly I don’t think many so called instances of dirty riding really are. They are more often stupid, wild or over enthusiastic, often with Adrenalin taking over. It is after all , a very tough sport.

The other thing is who decides where the border line is between hard riding and dirty riding. I remember Lee Richardson telling me years ago that at the top level, all of them , even Mr Nice Guy Greg Hancock are very, very hard men, and if they weren’t they wouldn’t be at the top. So once again we come back to the fact that it is a very tough sport, and at times the border between hard and dirty can easily and inadvertently be crossed.

Whilst slightly off the topic i think the above also illustrates the tremendous reactions shown by some in avoiding accidents and laying the bike down, over the years i have seen some tremendous feats of this underrated skill and big injuries prevented. Sadly in contrast i have seen riders travel significant distances and still collide with a fallen rider. It still slightly baffles me that we operate in a sport where big throttle use is often the only requirement for entry and safety/ability is not always the over riding requirement. 

[Najjer]

On 2/7/2021 at 6:16 PM, uk_martin said:

It all depends on which side of the border you live on and which team you support.

Glasgow Tigers fans wanted Morris's head mounted on a pole for that, and are using it as justification for voting "leave" at the next independence referendum. Such is life when you are passionate for a cause.  On the other hand, as a Brummies fan, the way I saw it, and as has been said above, he rode the same exit line out of that 4th bend that he'd used before and there was no attempt to ride into the side of the opponent, not in the way that Michael Schumacher or Sebastian Vettel have been known to do in F1 racing. Also as has been said above, he was in front and entitled to pick his own line. Glasgow fans will obviously disagree. To them every line on that track belongs to their riders and their riders only. Likewise when a gap closes, shutting the throttle off, doesn't seem to be the done thing. And finally, the one thing that nobody has asked or considered is what contribution that "safety" fence had on the injuries?  Hitting an upright pole sticking out of the ground is going to hurt, possibly badly. It was too far around for an air fence to have been an option at that location but would the injury have been any lesser had the fence been of the solid board type? 

Now if you do want to see a "definite" nudge that caused someone to go into the fence, check out Lubos Tomicek on Jason Lyons.

 

Are Birmingham fans still banging on about this one? I remember at the time they wanted Tomicek thrown out the meeting.... probably would of done Somerset a favour if he was but that’s another story for another day!

Tomicek used to have a near heart attack every time he got near anybody on track so I am 100% certain there is no way that is intentional. You could actually even argue he passed Lyons into the turn, he doesn’t have to leave room and Lyons should actually back off. Nothing more than a racing incident!