BOBBATH Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 Sadly I think another correction may be in order. The site shows Bob Andrews as appearing as a reserve in 1960 World Final(correct)-but shows him as not riding (incorrect). Actually in Heat 17 he did ride and finished behind Chum Taylor and ahead of Aub Lawson and Henryk Zyto. So Bob got two points and should get credit for this. Bob was always one of my favourite riders and perhaps this could be fixed also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted December 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 The item re Bob Andrews has been fixed .Received a nice note from Anthony Povey at Speedway GB who appreciates anybody noticing anything that needs to be corrected Tony is as anxious for historical accuracy as the rest of us and is greatly appreciative of interest in the website. Re previous discussions concerning the 1957 World Final on this website and the listing of Rolf Westerburg as non-riding reserve when most sources indicate the two non-riding reserves were Jack Biggs and Brian Crutcher. Some of the comments on the thread related to Brian not showing up at Wembley due to injury-hence the inclusion of Rolf Westerburg. I contacted my good friend Reg Fearman who in turn contacted Brian Crutcher- Brian's recollection is that he was not injured but thinks he said he was, simply because he was cheesed off at non-qualifying and didn't show up. Reg jokingly pretended to be Major Fearnley when he called and said that he would retroactively suspend Brian for this incident of 58 years ago. Think the statute of limitations may have run out. Will still contact Anthony though to find his source. Reg also did recall Rolf Westerburg as an excellent rider. My interactions with Reg are always extremely enjoyable and humourous and he has a great memory for speedway history- a real gent in my view. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
June01 Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 Re previous discussions concerning the 1957 World Final on this website and the listing of Rolf Westerburg as non-riding reserve when most sources indicate the two non-riding reserves were Jack Biggs and Brian Crutcher. Some of the comments on the thread related to Brian not showing up at Wembley due to injury-hence the inclusion of Rolf Westerburg. I contacted my good friend Reg Fearman who in turn contacted Brian Crutcher- Brian's recollection is that he was not injured but thinks he said he was, simply because he was cheesed off at non-qualifying and didn't show up. As a collecter of results I appreciate this input. So is the general conclusion that Biggs moved up and "rode" at 17 and Westerberg at 18, or did Westerberg simply replace Crutcher at 17? Would appreciate any answers you get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted January 1, 2016 Report Share Posted January 1, 2016 (edited) As a collecter of results I appreciate this input. So is the general conclusion that Biggs moved up and "rode" at 17 and Westerberg at 18, or did Westerberg simply replace Crutcher at 17? Would appreciate any answers you get. I think you should look on the other thread where it was discussed and I think the conclusion was that Westerberg wasn't there.This thread seems to have gone back to the beginning and confused things again,but there seemed to be video evidence of the parade that showed only 1 Norwegian rider.Aage Hansen would be the obvious guess,unless someone can look and say they can definitely see Westerberg for some reason wearing a British race jacket.......this video 'evidence' alongside a report from John Hyam at the time that stated Crutcher was there seem to be fairly conclusive.Unless Hyam was mistaken and for some reason Westerberg is on the parade wearing a GB jacket.... Edited January 1, 2016 by iris123 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted January 1, 2016 Report Share Posted January 1, 2016 Also the quotes from the following years' World Final programmes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted January 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2016 Before I contact Anthony Povey re this-am interested in the video evidence-question from me- does the line up show Biggs who was definitely there as reserve, or did it include only the 16 "true " qualifiers- if Biggs is shown it would make sense for the other reserve to be shown also-if Biggs not shown-then the other reserve (e.g. Westerburg) might be not shown either. What's the consensus of forum readers- I am sure Anthony Povey would have used the wikipaedia entry as his source for RW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted January 1, 2016 Report Share Posted January 1, 2016 Before I contact Anthony Povey re this-am interested in the video evidence-question from me- does the line up show Biggs who was definitely there as reserve, or did it include only the 16 "true " qualifiers- if Biggs is shown it would make sense for the other reserve to be shown also-if Biggs not shown-then the other reserve (e.g. Westerburg) might be not shown either. What's the consensus of forum readers- I am sure Anthony Povey would have used the wikipaedia entry as his source for RW. I think the statement: COMPILED BY ROBERT BAMFORD gives a clue as to the source! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted January 1, 2016 Report Share Posted January 1, 2016 Before I contact Anthony Povey re this-am interested in the video evidence-question from me- does the line up show Biggs who was definitely there as reserve, or did it include only the 16 "true " qualifiers- if Biggs is shown it would make sense for the other reserve to be shown also-if Biggs not shown-then the other reserve (e.g. Westerburg) might be not shown either. What's the consensus of forum readers- I am sure Anthony Povey would have used the wikipaedia entry as his source for RW. This is your post after all the evidence was presented,so I am a bit surprised at this latest development Posted 17 December 2015 - 09:12 PM I reckon we have to stay with the multiple sources that list Crutcher and Biggs as reserves and give Westerberg the boot off the website as a 1957 reserve. What was the source that provided his name to the Speedway website in the first place anyway? I think gustix in his last post today hits the nail on the head and thus we have to vote Westerberg off the island But you can watch the video (again)....I guess you did watch it the first time? http://www.aparchive.com/metadata/youtube/58b9d0459d4646598a832bcafc0b4c96 I do seem to count 18 riders,so that is the 16 plus 2 reserves.although it is all a bit too fast for me to see if Crutcher or Westerberg are there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted January 1, 2016 Report Share Posted January 1, 2016 This is your post after all the evidence was presented,so I am a bit surprised at this latest development But you can watch the video (again)....I guess you did watch it the first time? http://www.aparchive.com/metadata/youtube/58b9d0459d4646598a832bcafc0b4c96 I do seem to count 18 riders,so that is the 16 plus 2 reserves.although it is all a bit too fast for me to see if Crutcher or Westerberg are there I think the video clearly shows that just ONE Norwegian rider was on parade out of 18 and that was Hansen. The other thread seemed to have sorted all this out in a very logical and systematic way. I don't really understand why we have started discussing it again as if the other thread had not existed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted January 1, 2016 Report Share Posted January 1, 2016 Was I there? - John Hyam aka gustix. I was going to make a suggestion - now not needed - that researching the meeting report in the 'Speedway World' or the 'Speedway Star & News' would define the line-ups. That looks to have been a correct assumption then? Any chance of a Link to the previous debate etc on this subject please. And what a good job I didn't bring to light further debate on this topic...the 'good old gang' would have pilloried me! Well this is the piece from arnieg on the other thread that you did post on a few times John mate Posted 17 December 2015 - 06:38 PM Most puzzling. All the printed sources I could find (Astorias 1958, Loaders, Dobruszek, and those already cited) show Crutcher. S Star 28 Sept 1957 actually has the following on the back page: World Final Gossip by John Hyam (!!) "Bearded Brian Crutcher, although only first reserve and not called upon to race, took a very keen interest in the racing. When Barry Briggs headed Ove Fundin in the run-off for the title, Brian was amongst the first to congratulate the New Zealander." Does seem quite conclusive,but only you or old don or one of the others can actually say whether you were there or just made it up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted January 1, 2016 Report Share Posted January 1, 2016 I think I have entered some sort of parallel universe. This discussion seems to have become quite perverse. Are we now supposed to dismiss contemporaneous reports from Speedway meetings of the past? On the basis that the named reporter may have been too pissed to be relied upon.? is some sort of forum breathylser called for? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted January 1, 2016 Report Share Posted January 1, 2016 Well I think video evidence and the following years programme seem fairly good evidence even if we ignore the drunken ramblings of someone who most of the time doesn't know his assterix from his elbowlox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor... Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 Before I contact Anthony Povey re this-am interested in the video evidence-question from me- does the line up show Biggs who was definitely there as reserve, or did it include only the 16 "true " qualifiers- if Biggs is shown it would make sense for the other reserve to be shown also-if Biggs not shown-then the other reserve (e.g. Westerburg) might be not shown either. What's the consensus of forum readers- I am sure Anthony Povey would have used the wikipaedia entry as his source for RW. It's Andy Povey. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted January 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 Just sent Andy(sorry re Anthony) what seems to me to be the consensus-unless some evidence surfaces that RW was there-maybe it should remain as Crutcher/Biggs were nrr's (after all they did qualify as such) with a note re Brian Crutcher's absence-and a recommendation that he be retroactively suspended for not showing up that September night 58 years ago!! Anyway glad to hear Brian is still fine-and apparently had a good laugh with Reg re this. Happy New Year to all forumlanders!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 Just sent Andy(sorry re Anthony) what seems to me to be the consensus-unless some evidence surfaces that RW was there-maybe it should remain as Crutcher/Biggs were nrr's (after all they did qualify as such) with a note re Brian Crutcher's absence-and a recommendation that he be retroactively suspended for not showing up that September night 58 years ago!! Anyway glad to hear Brian is still fine-and apparently had a good laugh with Reg re this. Happy New Year to all forumlanders!!! Maybe you,through your connections can get Brian to look at the video to see if he recognises himself or it jogs his memory?Then again he might be as confused as one ex speedway journalist as to whether he was there or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 with a note re Brian Crutcher's absence-and a recommendation that he be retroactively suspended for not showing up that September night 58 years ago!! I think the concensus of opinion is that he was actually there. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) This on Speedway Researcher re the 1957 World Championship:: http://www.speedwayresearcher.org.uk/docs/wembley/1957.pdf ...but Brian Crutcher is not listed on wikipedia as making an appearance at Wembley in 1967! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Crutcher They are just websites and as we know websites can get things wrong.I mean they even upset Bobbath because they get things wrong.But this guy was there as an eye witness and back in those days was quite well respected,though he has turned into a bit of a fool nowadays,but that shouldn't distract from his piece written at the time. yet again for those who are hard of understanding World Final Gossip by John Hyam (!!) "Bearded Brian Crutcher, although only first reserve and not called upon to race, took a very keen interest in the racing. When Barry Briggs headed Ove Fundin in the run-off for the title, Brian was amongst the first to congratulate the New Zealander." It couldn't be that even way back then he was also often writing rubbish could it? Edited January 2, 2016 by iris123 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 Hmmm! As the old saying goes - something like - "...yer pays yer money and yer makes yer choice..." - and that is the criteria as to whether or not you accept that Brian Crutcher was one of the reserves at the 1957 World Final? Obviously in your world that is the criteria as to whether you accept Crutcher was there or Hoskins founded the sport of speedway.Most other people like hard evidence.Not sure what you are trying to prove here.It is already clear to most you are a bit of a prat....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 This on Speedway Researcher re the 1957 World Championship:: http://www.speedwayresearcher.org.uk/docs/wembley/1957.pdf ...but Brian Crutcher is not listed on wikipedia as making an appearance at Wembley in 1957! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Crutcher Hmmmm. That's a toughie. Speedway Researcher? Wikipedia? Wikipedia? Speedway Researcher?............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted January 2, 2016 Report Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) As I said on a thread that was deleted by gustix this morning. He is now showing huge disrespect to serious historians who have undertaken extensive work to try to give us the most accurate information on our sport's history. This sort of nonsense he is repeating is nothing short of disgraceful.. . Edited January 2, 2016 by Grand Central Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.