Jon Cook

[stevebrum]

Not making the HL list public was crass stupidity. It's just one blunder after another by these clowns...Happy Christmas

 

Just waiting for the reserve draft list, you would have thought they would have learned a lesson by now!

[SpecialOne]

stevebrum starting the conspiracy theories again, this time about the reserves draft. No wonder this sport is on its rear end with comments like that.

[BluPanther]

stevebrum starting the conspiracy theories again, this time about the reserves draft. No wonder this sport is on its rear end with comments like that.

No bigger rear end than someone 'liking' their own post

[Theboss]

Just waiting for the reserve draft list, you would have thought they would have learned a lesson by now!

 

I can not understand why this list was not published within days of the AGM concluding.

 

To be honest I am disappointed and I will now be sceptical of its contents when it is finally released to the public.

[g13webb]

Not missing the point at all. There are three likes to the post so some grasped the import of the point being made, in the context of the post being replied to. The issue is what the fans are "entitled" to.

 

The third para graph of my post says "Of course there is an argument that it makes good business sense to keep your customers informed of what is going onbut that is not an ENTITLEMENT that exists as an automatic right "

 

Then Humphrey Appleby says virtually the same thing ... "So whilst I don't particularly think the public have an ENTITLEMENT to know about the business details of Speedwáy I don't think it's unreasonable to have the competition rules explained." Not too far from the point I made, albeit phrased differently, yet you "liked" his but tell me I missed the point.

 

As I have said before half the disputes on the forum are because people read posts with preconceived ideas or just latch onto certain words or phrases instead of looking at the whole post in the context of the line of discussion.

 

Finally, I repeat yet again, that if someone attempted to answer the question Skidder 1 posed twice on the other thread (and which nobody has yet attempted to explain ) the discussion might be moved in a productive direction, but I dare say that the argument has now been ratcheted up to such an extent that his question will now probably be answered in an aggressive way so there is probably not much point now. That is just another example of people picking and choosing what posts to answer according to their agenda, rather than in the spirit of discussion.

 

Yes I do read the whole posting and still stand by my response. It's not so much of what you say but the perception of what you want us to believe. If you honestly think, the supporters have no entitlement of the rules making or of what is going on, then quite honestly you are above reproach. This is the exact reason why the sport is on its knees and promoters like Jon Cook ought to be aware of. Reacting like he did was very damaging to everyone concerned.

 

I have nothing more to say to you, other than to bid you fare well and wish you , like everyone else a Merry Christmas......

[stevebrum]

stevebrum starting the conspiracy theories again, this time about the reserves draft. No wonder this sport is on its rear end with comments like that.

 

any chance to attack as per usual. It's what trolls do tho.

 

No bigger rear end than someone 'liking' their own post

 

absolutely priceless. Let's face it its the only way it will get any likes. That's made my Christmas.

 

I can not understand why this list was not published within days of the AGM concluding.

 

To be honest I am disappointed and I will now be sceptical of its contents when it is finally released to the public.

It's just baffling why the need for such secrecy.

[E I Addio]

 

It's just baffling why the need for such secrecy.

Is it secrecy or just poor organisation ? Maybe it's a bit like the old joke :-

 

EVERYBODY thought SOMEBODY should do it.

ANYBODY could have done it.

But in the end NOBODY did it.

 

Good old nobody ! For me cock-up trumps conspiracy every time. Still only a few more days and everything will be fine when the new chairman takes over.

Edited December 24, 2015 by E I Addio

[stevebrum]

Is it secrecy or just poor organisation ? Maybe it's a bit like the old joke :-

EVERYBODY thought SOMEBODY should do it.

ANYBODY could have done it.

But in the end NOBODY did it.

Good old nobody ! For me cock-up trumps conspiracy every time. Still only a few more days and everything will be fine when the new chairman takes over.

I'd say it's both.

I remember a day when the BSPA AGM news was pretty transparent but more importantly informative to the speedway audience.

 

I think they have just made things so completely complicated for themselves that it's too enbarrasjnv to let the fans know.

CVS summed things up perfectly for me when he said (post AGM meeting) each year we have to add another rule to stop some from breaking the last.

Says it all to me.

[robert72]

I'd say it's both.

I remember a day when the BSPA AGM news was pretty transparent but more importantly informative to the speedway audience.

 

I think they have just made things so completely complicated for themselves that it's too enbarrasjnv to let the fans know.

CVS summed things up perfectly for me when he said (post AGM meeting) each year we have to add another rule to stop some from breaking the last.

Says it all to me.

Both Cvs & cook are big players in the fall of British speedway.

[bigcatdiary]

CVS summed things up perfectly for me when he said (post AGM meeting) each year we have to add another rule to stop some from breaking the last.

Says it all to me.

And that's the basic problem It needs ripping up and starting again.

[weatherwatcher]

You could also include the members of the BPSA in the quota above.

It is well time for some big changes in the way the sport is run. Before all is lost, due to a bunch of no nothings, who just sit and dream up ways to make the sport harder and harder to make any sort of sense of as the years go by.

[robert72]

You could also include the members of the BPSA in the quota above.

It is well time for some big changes in the way the sport is run. Before all is lost, due to a bunch of no nothings, who just sit and dream up ways to make the sport harder and harder to make any sort of sense of as the years go by.

When die hard fans are walking away and those in charge still take no notice the writing is on the wall that the sport in this country is all but finished as a professional sport.

[Halifaxtiger]

 

I am a customer of Barclays Bank where I deposit fairly substantial sums of money but it doesn't allow me access to the inner dealings at Head Office, why should it?

 

As for Bradley Wilson-Dean, the 2016 rule book has yet to be published.

 

Was your chat to this promotion as reasonable a you suggest or were you trying to prise out more information that they were reasonably able to give?

 

As Humph has said, there's a huge difference between publishing the rules for a spectator sport and those for a financial institution that deals mostly with confidential information.

 

Indeed so, but when two clubs asked about him in 2015 one was told a 5.00 average, the other that it hadn't been decided. That's directly contrary to the 2015 rule book.

 

While I would accept the way I asked might have some effect on the response, what I ask should not. After all, I can always be told 'no comment' or something like that.

 

I strongly believe that no fan should be lost to the sport or an individual team because of the attitude of a promotion. They can disagree with you, but that doesn't mean that you are not entitled to a civil response whatever you may ask. There are many examples on here where a paying customer has been treated appallingly and I am aware of at least half a dozen people who don't go to certain tracks any more because of the way they have been treated.

 

And promoters are always squawking about falling gates and financial losses !!

 

A few years ago, Spin King and I met up with ex Sheffield promoter Dave Hoggart at a time when the Tigers were struggling. He said we could ask any question we wanted, but he reserved the right to say 'I am not telling you that'. He was professional, as open as he could be, fair, reasonable and entirely civil.

 

I have had similar experiences with King's Lynn team manager Dale Allitt, Mildenhall chairman Kevin Jolly, ex Mildenhall promoters Simon Barton and Ray Mascall and Plymouth promoter Ashley Taylor and its little wonder that I have a great deal of regard for these gentlemen.

 

 

Entitled ? That really is a bizarre view, if I may say so.

 

Speedway is a product like any other. You pay your admission money, you get the product -15 heats of racing- and that is the end of your entitlement. There is no ongoing obligation to anything beyond that, and I am frankly astonished that some seem to think there is. Its rather like the equally facile argument that Tai Woffinden has some kind of obligation to ride in GB now because someone paid to watch him years ago.

 

Of course, there is an argument that it makes good business sense to keep your customers informed of what's going on but that is not an entitlement .that exists as an automatic right.

 

Fans a will be able to access the rules of the sport before the season starts but even the ACU , ie, the governing body of motor cycle sport in this country have yet to publish their 2016 handbook (unless it has been put on line in the last few days), so its an exaggeration to say fans are not being made aware of the rules of the sport.

 

Are you seriously claiming the fans want to know the reasoning behind every rule ? As yet there is no rule book. Nobody is prejudiced because the season is still a long way from starting.

 

And who are the "fans" ? Do you mean members of the BSF because they are not one and the same. Plenty of the most vociferous complainants on the BSF rarely, if ever go to a speedway meeting, some haven't been for years but they still come on whingeing and whining. In fact the person who started this thread is always proclaiming how rarely he goes except to Cardiff . Many clubs such as Wolves, Poole, Lakeside and |Coventry have fans forums or similar meetings during the winter (usually to push season ticket sales) when fans can put their questions and concern s to the promotion and get the answers straight from the horses mouth well before the season starts.

 

What it really boils down to is that hardly is anyone is getting hot and bothered about rule changes in general, the matter of concern is the heat-leader list.. I can understand that. I am interested in that myself, but maybe because I have worked in an administrative job most of my life I do understand that you cant always drop everything to concentrate on one. It would make more sense to have a target or roll out date set in advance so the public know when the information will be available and the BSPA are lacking in their general admin in this respect.

 

I still keep coming back to the point that Skidder1 has twice asked what to my mind was a very good question on the proper heat-leader list thread (this one being the Abuse Jon Cook Thread ) and nobody has yet attempted to answer it. If they did answer it in measured terms it might move the discussion in a productive direction, although a productive discussion is the last thing that some on here (not you) want.

 

Yes, fans are entitled to know.

 

You seem to believe that buying a ticket for a speedway meeting is like buying a loaf of bread. You buy it, you eat it (or watch it),end of story. That entirely overlooks the degree of involvement and interest that fans have in the sport. The pages of this forum have as a significant part of their content fans complaining (and occasionally praising) about riders, promoters, team managers and heaven knows who else - largely for one reason and one reason alone: they care about their team.

 

Not publishing both a rule and its reasoning means that those people have no idea about something that will directly affect their teams chances of success or failure and leads to situations similar to that at Somerset at the beginning of 2015.

 

To my mind, that treats the sports biggest sponsor with contempt and arrogance and comes very close to 'get what you are given and be grateful'. Its little wonder that people are angry.

 

The season hasn't started but team building most certainly has and this rule is all about team building. It is nonsense to say that no-one is prejudiced as every single fan is because they know nothing about it. It is not good business sense to keep people informed in a spectator sport - because of the degree of interest, it should be standard procedure. Not to do so is bad (if not awful) business practice.

 

Even when the rule book is published, it is often the case that rules are left out or promotions do not consider themselves bound by them. As an example, when Daniel Spiller signed for Eastbourne last season he was a British passport holder and had not ridden in the UK before. 5 minutes referral to SCB handbook will tell you that that is a 3.00 NL average, but it didn't stop Len Silver going on an ill tempered rant about it. Either Silver wasn't aware of that rule, or he believed that it should be entirely ignored.

 

I am wondering whether 'what is a fan' is a trick question. Surely it is someone who has an interest in speedway (or anything else) ? True, there are a multitude on this forum that attend occasionally, rarely, or not at all. The point is not that they are not entitled to give an opinion, but how much validity and credibility you place on their comments and views. Someone who never goes can be mostly ignored, someone who goes regularly should be listened to.

 

As to the Jon Cook abuse thread, he deserves every word of it.

 

So, to answer the question fans are entitled for two reasons : they are the sports biggest sponsor - indeed, they are its life blood. Secondly, they care passionately about it.

Is it secrecy or just poor organisation ? Maybe it's a bit like the old joke :-

 

.

 

Yes, I believe it is secrecy and that there is a genuine desire to maintain that within the BSPA/SCB.

 

The simple truth is it happens too often.

Edited January 2, 2016 by Halifaxtiger

[Reviresco]

Do we know if the comment

 

"Grading of heat leaders was done by common consensus of the EL promoters via an open poll and anyone thinking that's wrong is either thick or biased, or both."

 

attributed to Jon Cook are correct, or have been taken out of context yet, before we take this topic any further?

 

Gordon Pairman has posted on the Heat Leader List thread a very interesting response, including:

 

"Jon Cook’s article in the Star – which was simply his views, and not an official release - explained the process for creating the list which comprised 38 riders, not the 23 shown in the Star which only included riders who had ridden in UK in 2015, nor the 37 released by the BSPA press office which missed out Linus Sundstrom. This list was agreed by all of the Elite League promotions and confirmed on 2 November. The list that the BSPA forum member, SCB, produced might have been useful to our discussions – I will return to that in a moment – but it didn’t appear until 18 November, by which time the decisions had been made. By the way, I gather that the “thick or biased or both” quote from Jon Cook was aimed at a fellow promoter who tried to reopen the discussions on the list, not any supporter."

 

The last sentence maybe shows that Jon Cook's reported comments have been misinterpreted.

[E I Addio]

 

As to the Jon Cook abuse thread, he deserves every word of it.

 

 

 

So what exactly has the abuse achieved apart from one member getting himself suspended and a handful of others indentifying themselves as being too inarticulate to engage in grown up debate ?

 

I and a number of others have never understood how abuse is a substitute for adult discussion, or improves the forum so since you appear to support abuse perhaps you can enlighten us on that point

[Humphrey Appleby]

The last sentence maybe shows that Jon Cook's reported comments have been misinterpreted.

Or that's how it's been spun...

[Tsunami]

Or that's how it's been spun...

...or perhaps not.

[Halifaxtiger]

So what exactly has the abuse achieved apart from one member getting himself suspended and a handful of others indentifying themselves as being too inarticulate to engage in grown up debate ?

 

I and a number of others have never understood how abuse is a substitute for adult discussion, or improves the forum so since you appear to support abuse perhaps you can enlighten us on that point

 

Perhaps you should ask Mr Cook both of these questions. After all, he won't engage in debate and when criticised or questioned apparently just resorts to insults.

 

I don't think its served any purpose short of showing just how speedway fans feel about his comments.

 

My view is that any member of the speedway establishment (for want of a better word) deserves all the abuse he gets when he treats the fan base of our sport with contempt and arrogance (because that's the way everyone has interpreted it) and I am sure that we can agree that there's a great deal of difference between the odd fan doing it on the pages of this forum and a promoter doing it on the pages of Speedway Star.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Halifaxtiger

[baba]

Seems this subject is a bit of misinterpretation, grew legs and became almost a lesson to us all to watch what we post and don't type in anger when not aware of facts.

[Reviresco]

 

My view is that any member of the speedway establishment (for want of a better word) deserves all the abuse he gets when he treats the fan base of our sport with contempt and arrogance (because that's the way everyone has interpreted it) and I am sure that we can agree that there's a great deal of difference between the odd fan doing it on the pages of this forum and a promoter doing it on the pages of Speedway Star.

 

 

Not everyone. Almost everyone, maybe, but not everyone.