hans fan Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 There you go http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=77486&page=223&&do=findComment&comment=2572167 no way 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluPanther Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 There you go http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=77486&page=223&&do=findComment&comment=2572167 Gold medal for Mrs Columbo.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Gold medal for Mrs Columbo.. I can't take the credit, I had a little help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 There you go http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=77486&page=223&&do=findComment&comment=2572167 Excellent work! That saved me a job as was going to start looking this evening. So Starman feels there is nothing wrong with calling someone retarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Halifaxtiger Posted December 21, 2015 Popular Post Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) I don't think you can really say that the heat leader list was anymore secret than anything else the BSPA or any other similar body do. They make decisions at the AGM on a whole range of matters governing team building, e.g EL/PL conversion rates , points limits etc. As they are not elected by the public I am not sure why the public are entitled to know the ins and outs of every decision.. The only thing unusual about the heatleader list was that it took a while to be made public. None of us know why it was kept secret at first. There may be a good reason for that or there may be a bad reason, but until someone asks them we won't know. Normally there would be some kind of business reason for this, maybe something to do with rider negotiations, I don't know and I am not in a position to speculate. I can't off-hand think of any other sports with the so called transparency of decision making you are proposing, but I doubt there are many. Because they provide the funds that allows speedway to exist. If they are not entitled to be made aware of the rules of the sport and the reasoning behind it I am not quite sure who is. The alternative is the secrecy, backhander dealing and arbitrary decisions that we see all to frequently and which have undoubtedly led to some fans becoming so disillusioned that they simply stop going. We have already seen one such decision this winter : Bradley Wilson-Dean's PL average that is directly contrary to the rule book. And if someone did ask do you really think they would get a fair explanation ? We have already seen the response that is given to criticism. One final point : in 2016 there is one track that I definitely will not be going to. Its not because of the distance, the cost or the racing. Its the reaction I got from one of the promotion when I tried to have a reasonable chat about the track. Treating fans with contempt is one of the reasons why speedway is on its knees. Edited December 21, 2015 by Halifaxtiger 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocha Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Because they provide the funds that allows speedway to exist. If they are not entitled to be made aware of the rules of the sport and the reasoning behind it I am not quite sure who is. The alternative is the secrecy, backhander dealing and arbitrary decisions that we see all to frequently and which have undoubtedly led to some fans becoming so disillusioned that they simply stop going. We have already seen one such decision this winter : Bradley Wilson-Dean's PL average that is directly contrary to the rule book. And if someone did ask do you really think they would get a fair explanation ? We have already seen the response that is given to criticism. One final point : in 2016 there is one track that I definitely will not be going to. Its not because of the distance, the cost or the racing. Its the reaction I got from one of the promotion when I tried to have a reasonable chat about the track. Treating fans with contempt is one of the reasons why speedway is on its knees. I am a customer of Barclays Bank where I deposit fairly substantial sums of money but it doesn't allow me access to the inner dealings at Head Office, why should it? As for Bradley Wilson-Dean, the 2016 rule book has yet to be published. Was your chat to this promotion as reasonable a you suggest or were you trying to prise out more information that they were reasonably able to give? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spin king Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 There you go http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=77486&page=223&&do=findComment&comment=2572167 Silence is golden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Thats down to Neil. Im still waiting for somebody to find the post where im defending it.. In fairness there can never be a reason to defend anyone using THAT word. If that's SCB or Middlo or from anyone in a public arena IMHO. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Sadly i don't fall into line. Says it all about this forum.. A proud mother is watching her soldier son marching past in the company of his fellow soldiers. She notices that he advancing - left-right-left-right - while his fellow soldiers are going forward right-left-right left. She nudges the lady next to her and says, "Just look at that! Everybody is out of step except my Johnny!" 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I am a customer of Barclays Bank where I deposit fairly substantial sums of money but it doesn't allow me access to the inner dealings at Head Office, why should it? The comparison you choose is so revealing. Defending Speedway Promoters, and the probity of their actions. By alluding to the practices of City Bankers as justification. With friends like you .... Jon Cook and his mates don't really need any enemies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 I am a customer of Barclays Bank where I deposit fairly substantial sums of money but it doesn't allow me access to the inner dealings at Head Office, why should it? We're not talking about a commercial enterprise where some things may need to be kept confidential. We're talking about the team building rules for a spectator sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 We're not talking about a commercial enterprise where some things may need to be kept confidential. We're talking about the team building rules for a spectator sport. I think matters such as the LIBOR scandal illustrate exactly why confidentiality is a little overrated at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted December 21, 2015 Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Because they provide the funds that allows speedway to exist. If they are not entitled to be made aware of the rules of the sport and the reasoning behind it I am not quite sure who is. The alternative is the secrecy, backhander dealing and arbitrary decisions that we see all to frequently and which have undoubtedly led to some fans becoming so disillusioned that they simply stop going. We have already seen one such decision this winter : Bradley Wilson-Dean's PL average that is directly contrary to the rule book. And if someone did ask do you really think they would get a fair explanation ? We have already seen the response that is given to criticism. One final point : in 2016 there is one track that I definitely will not be going to. Its not because of the distance, the cost or the racing. Its the reaction I got from one of the promotion when I tried to have a reasonable chat about the track. Treating fans with contempt is one of the reasons why speedway is on its knees. Entitled ? That really is a bizarre view, if I may say so. Speedway is a product like any other. You pay your admission money, you get the product -15 heats of racing- and that is the end of your entitlement. There is no ongoing obligation to anything beyond that, and I am frankly astonished that some seem to think there is. Its rather like the equally facile argument that Tai Woffinden has some kind of obligation to ride in GB now because someone paid to watch him years ago. Of course, there is an argument that it makes good business sense to keep your customers informed of what's going on but that is not an entitlement .that exists as an automatic right. Fans a will be able to access the rules of the sport before the season starts but even the ACU , ie, the governing body of motor cycle sport in this country have yet to publish their 2016 handbook (unless it has been put on line in the last few days), so its an exaggeration to say fans are not being made aware of the rules of the sport. Are you seriously claiming the fans want to know the reasoning behind every rule ? As yet there is no rule book. Nobody is prejudiced because the season is still a long way from starting. And who are the "fans" ? Do you mean members of the BSF because they are not one and the same. Plenty of the most vociferous complainants on the BSF rarely, if ever go to a speedway meeting, some haven't been for years but they still come on whingeing and whining. In fact the person who started this thread is always proclaiming how rarely he goes except to Cardiff . Many clubs such as Wolves, Poole, Lakeside and |Coventry have fans forums or similar meetings during the winter (usually to push season ticket sales) when fans can put their questions and concern s to the promotion and get the answers straight from the horses mouth well before the season starts. What it really boils down to is that hardly is anyone is getting hot and bothered about rule changes in general, the matter of concern is the heat-leader list.. I can understand that. I am interested in that myself, but maybe because I have worked in an administrative job most of my life I do understand that you cant always drop everything to concentrate on one. It would make more sense to have a target or roll out date set in advance so the public know when the information will be available and the BSPA are lacking in their general admin in this respect. I still keep coming back to the point that Skidder1 has twice asked what to my mind was a very good question on the proper heat-leader list thread (this one being the Abuse Jon Cook Thread ) and nobody has yet attempted to answer it. If they did answer it in measured terms it might move the discussion in a productive direction, although a productive discussion is the last thing that some on here (not you) want. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 Speedway is a product like any other. You pay your admission money, you get the product -15 heats of racing- and that is the end of your entitlement. There is no ongoing obligation to anything beyond that, and I am frankly astonished that some seem to think there is. There's no entitlement for the fans to turn up and pay their money either. Part of being in the entertainment industry is indulging the patrons interests, just as some people follow the lives of actors beyond watching their films, the NFL draft, or speculate on football transfers. None of it's really important, but it generates interest in those sectors and good promoters would indulge it. Sure it can be argued that the heat leader list is mostly only of interest to a few sad stattoes who probably don't even pay to watch the sport, but it's part of a wider problem in that team building rules are not seen to be transparent or consistent, along with the perception of manipulation by promotions with more political clout. I started to lose interest in the sport even before I left the UK because it just came over as an increasing farce where the paying public were treated with contempt. So whilst I don't particularly think the public have an entitlement to know about the business details of speedway, I don't think it's unreasonable to have the competition rules explained. Yes, I'd accept that rulebooks may not be officially published, but teams are put together before it does come out, so clearly the team building rules are agreed and known, not to mention a promoter seeing fit to make barbed comments about fans pointing out all the inconsistencies. It would have been easier to just put forward a rationale explanation (if there is one) which may not have satisfied some, but would certainly have not alienated everyone. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinmauger Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 I consider myself neither biased nor thick, at least I hope I'm not. But I don't understand the new regs for heat leaders becasue I don't have the interest to fully digest yet another rule change. But surely it isn't asking too much for supporters to made aware of them. I still enjoy speedway but like any sport, it defo matters more when you have a team of your own to support but means less when you haven't.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen chemistry Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 this from a guy with no backbone. lets ford cancel a meeting for no reason other than its in pooles best interest not to run meeting as they probly look like loosing.....but then has a go at other clubs when they call off matchs . hypocrit in my eyes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted December 23, 2015 Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 Entitled ? That really is a bizarre view, if I may say so. Speedway is a product like any other. You pay your admission money, you get the product -15 heats of racing- and that is the end of your entitlement. There is no ongoing obligation to anything beyond that, and I am frankly astonished that some seem to think there is. Its rather like the equally facile argument that Tai Woffinden has some kind of obligation to ride in GB now because someone paid to watch him years ago. Of course, there is an argument that it makes good business sense to keep your customers informed of what's going on but that is not an entitlement .that exists as an automatic right. Fans a will be able to access the rules of the sport before the season starts but even the ACU , ie, the governing body of motor cycle sport in this country have yet to publish their 2016 handbook (unless it has been put on line in the last few days), so its an exaggeration to say fans are not being made aware of the rules of the sport. Are you seriously claiming the fans want to know the reasoning behind every rule ? As yet there is no rule book. Nobody is prejudiced because the season is still a long way from starting. And who are the "fans" ? Do you mean members of the BSF because they are not one and the same. Plenty of the most vociferous complainants on the BSF rarely, if ever go to a speedway meeting, some haven't been for years but they still come on whingeing and whining. In fact the person who started this thread is always proclaiming how rarely he goes except to Cardiff . Many clubs such as Wolves, Poole, Lakeside and |Coventry have fans forums or similar meetings during the winter (usually to push season ticket sales) when fans can put their questions and concern s to the promotion and get the answers straight from the horses mouth well before the season starts. What it really boils down to is that hardly is anyone is getting hot and bothered about rule changes in general, the matter of concern is the heat-leader list.. I can understand that. I am interested in that myself, but maybe because I have worked in an administrative job most of my life I do understand that you cant always drop everything to concentrate on one. It would make more sense to have a target or roll out date set in advance so the public know when the information will be available and the BSPA are lacking in their general admin in this respect. I still keep coming back to the point that Skidder1 has twice asked what to my mind was a very good question on the proper heat-leader list thread (this one being the Abuse Jon Cook Thread ) and nobody has yet attempted to answer it. If they did answer it in measured terms it might move the discussion in a productive direction, although a productive discussion is the last thing that some on here (not you) want. Its no wonder the sport is on it's knees, if they think like you do..... Without the supporters , the sport is dead... You seem to miss that point. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted December 23, 2015 Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 As I said before ..Cook is one of the worst things to happen to speedway a massive head and one stupid idea after another ...please go . 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted December 23, 2015 Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) Its no wonder the sport is on it's knees, if they think like you do..... Without the supporters , the sport is dead... You seem to miss that point.Not missing the point at all. There are three likes to the post so some grasped the import of the point being made, in the context of the post being replied to. The issue is what the fans are "entitled" to. The third para graph of my post says "Of course there is an argument that it makes good business sense to keep your customers informed of what is going onbut that is not an ENTITLEMENT that exists as an automatic right " Then Humphrey Appleby says virtually the same thing ... "So whilst I don't particularly think the public have an ENTITLEMENT to know about the business details of Speedwáy I don't think it's unreasonable to have the competition rules explained." Not too far from the point I made, albeit phrased differently, yet you "liked" his but tell me I missed the point. As I have said before half the disputes on the forum are because people read posts with preconceived ideas or just latch onto certain words or phrases instead of looking at the whole post in the context of the line of discussion. Finally, I repeat yet again, that if someone attempted to answer the question Skidder 1 posed twice on the other thread (and which nobody has yet attempted to explain ) the discussion might be moved in a productive direction, but I dare say that the argument has now been ratcheted up to such an extent that his question will now probably be answered in an aggressive way so there is probably not much point now. That is just another example of people picking and choosing what posts to answer according to their agenda, rather than in the spirit of discussion. Edited December 23, 2015 by E I Addio 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluPanther Posted December 23, 2015 Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 Not making the HL list public was crass stupidity. It's just one blunder after another by these clowns...Happy Christmas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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