Bruce Penhall

[orion]

What rot you talk. Muller was a class act. In the 81 World Final to name one meeting, he scored 9 points in a very competitive field on a track hardly suited to his style, In addition, in an albeit short spell with Hull in 1976 he averaged 8.75. There were many riders who "some" would regard as more deserving of a place in a final who got nowhere near that at any time. Muller was not handed the title on a plate - there were some good riders in the world then (many more than now) & he whipped them all as if it were men against boys. Own back yard or not, he was still a very worthy champion.

 

As for Szczakiel, check out the 1971 World Pairs Final - unbeaten, Look at the riders he beat. In addition, you should perhaps be aware of Ivan Mauger's opinion of him. Even Ivan who must have been gutted, said he was a worthy champion & with the greatest of respect, I would take his opinion over yours any day of the week.

 

In addition your argument holds no water. You state the old system was unfair, the new one not. If the argument is that riders who should not have been there were, thus devaluing the meeting, I would say three things. First, I went to many "one off" world finals & have been to many GP's too. The atmosphere at World Finals was generally second to none & the anticipation leading up to the meeting, knowing that you would see the champion crowned that night couldn't be beaten. In addition, part of the interest then was seeing some big names fall by the wayside in the qualifiers, or knowing one incident could change the context of the meeting.

 

Second, if the old system was so unfair because here were "no hopers" in the field, what do you call most (that's most) of the wild card riders today? What is the difference between them & the likes of Muller or Szczakiel being nominated by their home federation? Answer: none.

 

The reality is, bot the old & new system have their flaws & benefits, not everyone will be happy, however, your particular argument is flawed, because in some ways the same thing exists now.

First all I never said the new system was fair and the old system was not ..so you just had a big rant without reading what I said . I understand that both had benefits and Flaws sadly when the ones of old system are pointed people like you go into deny mode

 

The bottom line is that out of the 16 due to the way the draw was done what was clearly silly and unfair at least 6 riders should have not been there and even riders who went on to win would not have made it in the first place ..your Mate Szczakiel was good in Poland etc but from open draw there was no way he would got into the final .looking back I was maybe a bit harsh on Muller but reading about his final by all accounts he was allowed to practice on the track for weeks before hand and the track was set up like a long track so clearly he had a massive and unfair advantage over the others .

Edited December 16, 2015 by orion

[Starman2006]

I understand that both had benefits and Flaws sadly when .looking back I was maybe a bit harsh on Muller but reading about his final by all accounts he was allowed to practice on the track for weeks before hand and the track was set up like a long track so clearly he had a massive and unfair advantage over the others .

And that, is true..

[stratton]

Knudsen always gave the appearance of being in the Nielsen-Gundersen echelon, but was really never there. Gundersen despite an inferior league record against Nielsen, always seemed to be able to pull something special out of the bag in World Finals. Knudsen was the sort of opposite.

 

From memory, Knudsen was one of the few riders who could actually beat Nielsen in league racing on any sort of regular basis, but seemed to be the Leigh Adams of the 1980s.

 

Humph stick to your EU nonsense in 86 Knudsen was robbed end of, that was his title ERIK his overall head to head record with Nielsen was awesome specially on the big night.Knudsen was unlucky certainly in 86 remember one Friday night at Oxford Knudsen totally murdered Nielsen.

Humph stick to your EU nonsense in 86 Knudsen was robbed end of, that was his title ERIK his overall head to head record with Nielsen was awesome specially on the big night.Knudsen was unlucky certainly in 86 remember one Friday night at Oxford Knudsen totally murdered Nielsen.

Gundersen, Lee,Carter,Knudsen all had really good overall head to head records against Nielsen. Edited December 16, 2015 by sidney

[lucifer sam]

Humph stick to your EU nonsense in 86 Knudsen was robbed end of, that was his title ERIK his overall head to head record with Nielsen was awesome specially on the big night.Knudsen was unlucky certainly in 86 remember one Friday night at Oxford Knudsen totally murdered Nielsen.

 

Sid, you've failed to grasp what Humph has actually said.

 

He's said Knudsen did seem to be able to mix it at times with Nielsen at a domestic level (a big compliment, since Nielsen is one of the best riders, it not the best rider, at a domestic level), but couldn't mix it on the biggest stage.

 

And the facts back that up. After finishing third in 1981 at the age of 19, Knudsen failed to finish in the top three again. He always somehow managed to mess it up. In '86, he did a Carter and left a major rival (Nielsen) with a gap on the inside - fatal error. In 1991, he won the supposed winners-takes-all Heat 1, but then threw other points, and ended up getting passed by Nielsen in the run-off for third. In 1992, he won his opening two rides, then fell apart when it started to rain. He again won his opening two rides in 1994... and again finished off the rostrum.

 

Time and time again, Knudsen blew his chance in the World Championship. Performances such as his maximum in the 1985 World Team Cup Final showed how good he could be on the world stage, but when the pressure was really on in the individual event, he couldn't pull it off. He's in good company, there's a lot of good riders who couldn't quite win a World Final.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited December 16, 2015 by lucifer sam

[YerRopes]

I was a Carter fan but realised and still do that it was the likes of Penhall, Sigalos, the Moran Brothers and Boogaloo that made that era of British speedway so great..

 

As for Kenny, what a desperately sad end for so many, god knows where his head was at...

 

Never particularly liked BP, but he was brilliant for British speedway at the time, until he skulked off that is !

[fatface]

Quite blatant that Nielsen knocked off Knudsen and Ermolenko.

 

Hans could get like that when he got desperate.

 

I remember a gp (and its on the Loramski the legend dvd) where they were scrapping for a point and Nielsen just kept delibertaly blocking Loram and almost knocked him off twice. Mark passed him on the last lap and going over the line turned his head and gave him a long stare and lets be fair thats the only time ive seen Mark rattled by dirty riding on the track.

 

Regards Muller. He was a good rider but lets be fair would never have been a world champion in 1983 or any other year if the final hadnt been held in Germany and the fact it was suspected to be an engine slightly over 500cc lol

Bang on - on all points! Nielsen will go down as one of the all time greats. But he had a surprising weakness to frequently crack when pressure was at its absolute peak. He didn't see the job through when unbeaten at the interval in both 84 and 85, lost three world final run-offs, let the 96 GP series slip in the last round and took out Ermolenko and Knudsen in finals - getting away with it in the latter.

 

Also agree that world-class rider though he was, Muller was never World Champion material anywhere but Germany. I too was in Norden - seems like everyone on this thread was! He was just miles ahead of the rest.

 

No doubt he had unprecedented access to that track beforehand so knew every nook and cranny. I'd also be amazed if the track wasn't prepared to his spec, such was the appetite for a home winner. Finally, he had exclusive use of the newly developed GM engine at that final. His opposition were still on Weslakes, Goddens and Jawas (not the most popular engine of choice back then). Even when you watch the footage back now, he is yards faster than the rest. Only in his last ride when one point will do, he is more cautious.

 

He didn't cheat and won it within the rules - fair enough. But he had a few advantages along the way that made it possible.

[stratton]

First all I never said the new system was fair and the old system was not ..so you just had a big rant without reading what I said . I understand that both had benefits and Flaws sadly when the ones of old system are pointed people like you go into deny mode

 

The bottom line is that out of the 16 due to the way the draw was done what was clearly silly and unfair at least 6 riders should have not been there and even riders who went on to win would not have made it in the first place ..your Mate Szczakiel was good in Poland etc but from open draw there was no way he would got into the final .looking back I was maybe a bit harsh on Muller but reading about his final by all accounts he was allowed to practice on the track for weeks before hand and the track was set up like a long track so clearly he had a massive and unfair advantage over the others .

A bit harsh please the riders name was Egon Muller hardly a mug.

Sid, you've failed to grasp what Humph has actually said.

 

He's said Knudsen did seem to be able to mix it at times with Nielsen at a domestic level (a big compliment, since Nielsen is one of the best riders, it not the best rider, at a domestic level), but couldn't mix it on the biggest stage.

 

And the facts back that up. After finishing third in 1981 at the age of 19, Knudsen failed to finish in the top three again. He always somehow managed to mess it up. In '86, he did a Carter and left a major rival (Nielsen) with a gap on the inside - fatal error. In 1991, he won the supposed winners-takes-all Heat 1, but then threw other points, and ended up getting passed by Nielsen in the run-off for third. In 1992, he won his opening two rides, then fell apart when it started to rain. He again won his opening two rides in 1994... and again finished off the rostrum.

 

Time and time again, Knudsen blew his chance in the World Championship. Performances such as his maximum in the 1985 World Team Cup Final showed how good he could be on the world stage, but when the pressure was really on in the individual event, he couldn't pull it off. He's in good company, there's a lot of good riders who couldn't quite win a World Final.

 

All the best

Rob

You have two big opinions the Penhall/Carter incident and the Knudsen/Nielsen incident on both counts you are so bias.Nielsen in 86 was so lucky you could even see in his body language Hans knew he was let off the hook bigtime Knudsen would of won that Final i believe.

[lucifer sam]

You have two big opinions the Penhall/Carter incident and the Knudsen/Nielsen incident on both counts you are so bias.Nielsen in 86 was so lucky you could even see in his body language Hans knew he was let off the hook bigtime Knudsen would of won that Final i believe.

 

Had the ref got it wrong and excluded Hans, then the only way Tommy could have won it, would have been for Hans to do him a favour in Heat 20 and defeat Jan O, and also then Tommy to defeat Jan O in the run-off for first place.

 

Given how Knudsen handled the pressure (or rather didn't) in other World Finals, my money would have been on Jan O Pedersen... IF the ref had got it wrong and not excluded Knudsen from Heat 15. Fortunately we had a competent ref for that final, who called it correctly.

 

As for my so-called bias, Sid, have I not already said that I believe that Hans Nielsen's exclusion in the 1993 final was correct?

 

All the best

Rob

Edited December 16, 2015 by lucifer sam

[Endeavour]

Knudsen always gave the appearance of being in the Nielsen-Gundersen echelon, but was really never there. Gundersen despite an inferior league record against Nielsen, always seemed to be able to pull something special out of the bag in World Finals. Knudsen was the sort of opposite.

 

From memory, Knudsen was one of the few riders who could actually beat Nielsen in league racing on any sort of regular basis, but seemed to be the Leigh Adams of the 1980s.

 

Always thought Knudsen and Adams were 2 of the best riders never to win a world individual title.

[stratton]

Now you're talking nonsense, young Sidney.

 

Definite contact in 1986, but it came about because the already passed Knudsen cut back in. There's a camera angle from the Danish TV coverage which shows just how much Knudsen cut back across the track. An attempt to bolt the stable door after the horse had already bolted, with the inevitable consequences.

 

Nielsen's exclusion in the 1993 final was correct, because he drifted across the track and hit Ermolenko. In '86, Hans kept it tight, only for TK to cut back in.

 

All the best

Rob

You are one of a few who see it the way you do, i have spoke to plenty of people about it and one person who went he said Nielsen was at fault.Even in Hans body language you could see he feared the worst, i know you are a Nielsen fan but you have to be impartial. Take the blinkers off that meeting Nielsen's move was a desperate one after all his near misses he was LUCKY bigtime. Edited December 16, 2015 by sidney

[Dave the Mic]

First all I never said the new system was fair and the old system was not ..so you just had a big rant without reading what I said . I understand that both had benefits and Flaws sadly when the ones of old system are pointed people like you go into deny mode

 

The bottom line is that out of the 16 due to the way the draw was done what was clearly silly and unfair at least 6 riders should have not been there and even riders who went on to win would not have made it in the first place ..your Mate Szczakiel was good in Poland etc but from open draw there was no way he would got into the final .looking back I was maybe a bit harsh on Muller but reading about his final by all accounts he was allowed to practice on the track for weeks before hand and the track was set up like a long track so clearly he had a massive and unfair advantage over the others .

First all I never said the new system was fair and the old system was not ..so you just had a big rant without reading what I said . I understand that both had benefits and Flaws sadly when the ones of old system are pointed people like you go into deny mode

 

The bottom line is that out of the 16 due to the way the draw was done what was clearly silly and unfair at least 6 riders should have not been there and even riders who went on to win would not have made it in the first place ..your Mate Szczakiel was good in Poland etc but from open draw there was no way he would got into the final .looking back I was maybe a bit harsh on Muller but reading about his final by all accounts he was allowed to practice on the track for weeks before hand and the track was set up like a long track so clearly he had a massive and unfair advantage over the others .

OK. First, read your own post number 108. You say unfair rules applied in the old system. If that isn't saying the old system was unfair, what is? You genuinely have no idea what you are talking about. My comments are reasoned and thought out. I am stating that both systems have good and bad. I haven't "denied" anything. Why are you so aggressive? Can no-one disagree with you?

 

Your comments regarding the two riders are a joke.Head to head races between Mauger and Szczakiel was 7-6 to Ivan and I repeat the comments regarding Ivan's view of my "mate" Szczakiel, as you stupidly put it. Ivan rated him as a rider and felt he was a deserved champion. Reading replies on here it seems Ivan's view of him is accepted by many as being totally valid by everyone except you. Forgive me if I put him above you in terms of depth of speedway knowledge.

 

On Muller, I honestly think you're just winding everyone on here up. Muller would have graced any world final, or GP series. When he raced here in 1976 his first meeting for Hull was at Perry Barr, Birmingham and he scored 11 from 4 rides, a track so far removed from anything on the continent as you can get. How many riders do you think could have done that? Ask any if his racing peers what they think of him, not one would share your view. You know nothing.

[Grand Central]

I just want to put my two-penneth into the mix here.

 

I happen to think thank Hans Nielsen was, and is, terribly overated.

 

I know Rob will leap to his defence .... but I just never felt he was that special.

I always felt he just happened to be the best guy around when the rest were pretty p!ss poor.

He was the best of probably the worst bunch ever.

 

But even then he underachieved massively.

 

He wasn't World Champion in so many years when he just should have been if he were anything special.

 

Not World Champ in 90.

Not World Champ in 91.

Not World Champ in 92.

Not World Champ in 93.

Not World Champ in 94.

 

He just should have been because, at the time, the rest were pretty mediocre.

[stratton]

I just want to put my two-penneth into the mix here.

 

I happen to think thank Hans Nielsen was, and is, terribly overated.

 

I know Rob will leap to his defence .... but I just never felt he was that special.

I always felt he just happened to be the best guy around when the rest were pretty p!ss poor.

He was the best of probably the worst bunch ever.

 

But even then he underachieved massively.

 

He wasn't World Champion in so many years when he just should have been if he were anything special.

 

Not World Champ in 90.

Not World Champ in 91.

Not World Champ in 92.

Not World Champ in 93.

Not World Champ in 94.

 

He just should have been because, at the time, the rest were pretty mediocre.

Very brutal GC your opinion and i respect that in later years i got to appreciate Nielsen a bit more i was never a fan to be honest.I see him for about two whole seasons regularly at Oxford and he was rarely beaten then but for me i never took to him.When Penhall,Lee,Sigalos, Gundo,Sanders was about he was never top dog and if Penhall/Lee,Sigalos,Sanders had not disappeared no way would he have won four titles.

[lucifer sam]

I just want to put my two-penneth into the mix here.

 

I happen to think thank Hans Nielsen was, and is, terribly overated.

 

I know Rob will leap to his defence .... but I just never felt he was that special.

I always felt he just happened to be the best guy around when the rest were pretty p!ss poor.

He was the best of probably the worst bunch ever.

 

But even then he underachieved massively.

 

He wasn't World Champion in so many years when he just should have been if he were anything special.

 

Not World Champ in 90.

Not World Champ in 91.

Not World Champ in 92.

Not World Champ in 93.

Not World Champ in 94.

 

He just should have been because, at the time, the rest were pretty mediocre.

 

So you're saying Per Jonsson, Jan O Pedersen and Sam Ermolenko were "piss poor" and "pretty mediocre"? I think some Reading, Cradley and Wolves fans might take issue with those statements.

 

My flabber has been gasted!!

 

Personally, I thought they were all terrific riders. Per Jonsson was a rider with real trackcraft, Jan O Pedersen was the best over-taker I've ever seen, and Sam Ermolenko put one of the most consistent speedway seasons in 1993.

 

There's no way that this lot were mediocre.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited December 16, 2015 by lucifer sam

[orion]

OK. First, read your own post number 108. You say unfair rules applied in the old system. If that isn't saying the old system was unfair, what is? You genuinely have no idea what you are talking about. My comments are reasoned and thought out. I am stating that both systems have good and bad. I haven't "denied" anything. Why are you so aggressive? Can no-one disagree with you?

 

Your comments regarding the two riders are a joke.Head to head races between Mauger and Szczakiel was 7-6 to Ivan and I repeat the comments regarding Ivan's view of my "mate" Szczakiel, as you stupidly put it. Ivan rated him as a rider and felt he was a deserved champion. Reading replies on here it seems Ivan's view of him is accepted by many as being totally valid by everyone except you. Forgive me if I put him above you in terms of depth of speedway knowledge.

 

On Muller, I honestly think you're just winding everyone on here up. Muller would have graced any world final, or GP series. When he raced here in 1976 his first meeting for Hull was at Perry Barr, Birmingham and he scored 11 from 4 rides, a track so far removed from anything on the continent as you can get. How many riders do you think could have done that? Ask any if his racing peers what they think of him, not one would share your view. You know nothing.

I am aggressive ? you need to read your own posts ..are explain again very slowly ...I said both systems had flaws ..so there was need for you to go off on a big rant ...the bottom line is you read the post wrong and went into everything was great in the old days mode without even thinking .

 

Explain to me how the old system and how they got get there was not a joke ...nearly all the best riders were in one side of the draw and the worst riders were in the other meaning each year you zero chance of having the best riders in the final as well as leaving at least 6 no hopers in the final ...if you think that is fair then your are clueless .

 

Yet again talking about the pole I yet again explained he was good in Poland but doubt he would have got to the final under a fair and even draw. the fact he beat Mauger 7 -6 means nowt as I expect most of those races were in Poland ( correct me if I am wrong about that) .Also ivan comment about being him a deserved champion on the day has nothing to do with the point I was making so yet again you got the wrong end of the stick .. . As for Saying Muller would have grace any world final well after he won it on his home longtrack track he only scored 3 points in each of the next two so hardly graced them did he ?

Edited December 17, 2015 by orion

[ColinMills]

personally didn't rate muller much, but in fairness, I didn't see much of him, but thanks to you tube, been watching a bit lately

[Guest]

personally didn't rate muller much, but in fairness, I didn't see much of him, but thanks to you tube, been watching a bit lately

 

Have you seen Egon Muller and Peter Collins in a simply brilliant long track clash on youtube? Some of the greatest track racing I ever seen.

[ColinMills]

 

Have you seen Egon Muller and Peter Collins in a simply brilliant long track clash on youtube? Some of the greatest track racing I ever seen.

not seen that one as yet.

[Guest]

personally didn't rate muller much, but in fairness, I didn't see much of him, but thanks to you tube, been watching a bit lately

 

 

 

Have you seen Egon Muller and Peter Collins in a simply brilliant long track clash on youtube? Some of the greatest track racing I ever seen.

 

 

not seen that one as yet.

 

Here's the Link to the youtube classic Long Track clash:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OV3Ltyyt-A

Edited December 17, 2015 by Guest

[The Doctor...]

 

 

 

 

 

Here's the Link to the youtube classic Long Track clash:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OV3Ltyyt-A

 

 

That's interesting John.

 

But take it onto private emails, as it's not relevant here.

 

 

So you're saying Per Jonsson, Jan O Pedersen and Sam Ermolenko were "piss poor" and "pretty mediocre"? I think some Reading, Cradley and Wolves fans might take issue with those statements.

 

My flabber has been gasted!!

 

Personally, I thought they were all terrific riders. Per Jonsson was a rider with real trackcraft, Jan O Pedersen was the best over-taker I've ever seen, and Sam Ermolenko put one of the most consistent speedway seasons in 1993.

 

There's no way that this lot were mediocre.

 

All the best

Rob

 

With you all the way here Rob, and not because of the Reading stance i have. Nielsen was ridiculous, but he did have challengers, definitely.

 

He was also the first autograph i got in speedway, at the meeting when the lights went off at Smallmead when we led you lot 40-26 (why do i remember the scoreline!) and Wiggy rode round with a torch in his mouth.

 

Cheers

Tom