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Bruce Penhall


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A VERY fine Post Dave the Mic.

 

I totally agree with you on just about everything you have written.

 

One point of interest to me is that when you are talking about top Riders. I find it incredible how many British Riders in the Seventies, who would probably be classed/considered as great, and yet how few there are today.

 

A sad reflection on the state of our Sport these days.

Thanks TWK. Agreed. You could also add (& I probably should have) Bettsy, Jessup & Crash to name 3. Who from the latter periods? Very few.

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Brilliant post Dave the Mic, really enjoyed reading that and I pretty much agree 100% with it!

 

The only rider I would perhaps give a bit more credit too is Billy Hamill who was one I feel had injuries curtail his effectiveness earlier than some. I think he topped the Elite League Averages 3 years running for 3 different teams? That said, he'd still rank behind the other American World Title winners, so perhaps not too much of a difference to your analysis.

Edited by BWitcher
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Any others for the at least 1 World Title, 1 BLCR and 11pt average club?

So we have

 

Barry Briggs

Ivan Mauger

Ole Olsen

Peter Collins

Hans Nielsen

Sam Ermolenko

I think Erik Gundersen would get into that list.

He was just over an 11 average from all official matches with Cradley in the 1986 season, won the BLRC in (I think) 1983 and 1986 and obviously took his 3 individual speedway World titles in 1984, 1985 and 1988.

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Rickardsson comes fairly close to Mauger, if only for his 6 titles & how much better he was than all of his peers, although I feel Ivan had more peers at the top level & would have outstripped Tony had they raced at the same time.

A good post, I enjoyed reading your views, but the thing that stood out most for me was this comment.

 

You rate Ivan better because he had more peers "at the top level" during his career. Given the fact that it impossible to compare across eras, could you not argue that Tony was actually better because there were fewer peers able to get close to his level?

 

I admit I am kind of playing devil's advocate with that comment, but I thought it was worth throwing out to see what people think.

 

Personally, I rate Rickardsson as the best ever, but I only really saw Mauger at the end of his career and that obviously brings in a bias. Despite having seen plenty of videos of Ivan at his prime, the sport changed so much between their respective eras that I find it really hard to appreciate his ability in the same way as I can with Rickardsson.

 

Olsen was possibly a better all round rider than both, but Hans and Erik probably won more titles as they were by some margin the two stand out riders of their day, whilst Olsen had many more peers to contend with. Jan O Pedersen was a good rider, spectacular as they come & one of the best "racers" of is day. I accept he was unlucky with injuries, but I don't feel he was quite in the same league as the other 3 here. Knudsen was good, but not great, although he was unfortunate in '86, when there is no doubt Nielsen should have been excluded for taking him off. Nicki Pedersen is also in the mix here, & although his three world titles speak very loudly, I feel he would have won less had he raced in a different era. No other Danes are worthy of significant mention.

My all time favourite rider is still Erik Gundersen, and I still believe we would have seen more World titles from him if he hadn't had that terrible accident at Bradford in 1989.

Possibly strangely, I also think Hans Nielsen would have won more World titles if Erik hadn't had that crash. Maybe I just imagine it, but it seemed like a little something was lost from Hans after that day.

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Some good & interesting posts, I also much prefer it when everyone 'plays nicely' and just discusses speedway. That way we all get more from the forum as we both learn stuff we never knew and / or consider a view or angle on the sport we probably never considered before. Back on topic: riders of any era perform better when they have someone they really (really) want to beat and cannot abide losing to: Briggs / Fundin, Mauger / Olsen / Collins, Penhall / Carter, Nielsen / Gundersen, Rickardsson / Crump / NickiP, etc, etc. Doesn't always follow that they aren't on at least speaking terms though. Nielsen defo appreared to lose some of his edge with Gundersen missing from the equation following his awful accident else their battles could have gone on and on....

Edited by Martin Mauger
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Henry, I can see your thinking on Trick & Ivan. My logic is based on the fact that during Ivan's reign, not only did he have the likes of Olsen, Collins, Mich, Briggo, Fundin, Lee, to contend with, but others like Louis, Simmo, Sjosten, the Poles in the their on back yard etc, but he also almost single handedly took NZ to a WTC win, was a real mainstay of the GB team when Kiwis raced for GB, topped the BL averages more often than not & raced at a near 11 point average (or more) for many years, won 3 individual titles in a row, including one in Poland, where it was always hard to achieve anything, won a title at 37 & again at 39, won three BL titles ina row with Belle Vue & then turned unfashionable Exeter into title winners with an average team & almost did the same with Hull. I was lucky enough to see both over many years & I simply think Ivan was the complete package, on & off the track. He was something of a winning machine.

 

Agree with both you & Martin re Hans & Erik, their intense rivalry spurred them both on to great things & I do believe Hans lost a little something after Erik's crash.

 

The point I made about GP v one off wins was based on the fact that Hans was more consistent over time & I feel his mindset was more suited to a GP series, in that he was a little bit like Ivan in some ways, a points scoring machine, whereas Erik seemed to be able to raise his game for the big day as he did when needed for example in 84 & 85.

Edited by Dave the Mic
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Couple of good posts Dave.Don't agree with a lot of it,but you have put your points out thoughtfully

 

One thing I would disagree with is your bit about Nicki that you think he would have won less in another era.It is hard to tell in one way,but in anther if you started swapping riders around eras then it is obvious that some would win less.If you put Rickardsson in the same era as Fundin and Briggs then obviously someone must win less.The same if Mauger was in the same era as Rickarsson.Nicki didn't win his titles by luck.In some years he totally dominated,just like Crump and then stragely in some years he looked a shadow of himself as did Crump

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Couple of good posts Dave.Don't agree with a lot of it,but you have put your points out thoughtfully

 

One thing I would disagree with is your bit about Nicki that you think he would have won less in another era.It is hard to tell in one way,but in anther if you started swapping riders around eras then it is obvious that some would win less.If you put Rickardsson in the same era as Fundin and Briggs then obviously someone must win less.The same if Mauger was in the same era as Rickarsson.Nicki didn't win his titles by luck.In some years he totally dominated,just like Crump and then stragely in some years he looked a shadow of himself as did Crump

 

Yeah, Nicki totally dominated in 2007 and 2008 - completely deserved.

 

He was fortunate that Crump lost points to engine failures in 2003 - Crumpie was not a rider who had sub-standard machinery, he just had e/fs at the wrong time. Especially the one in the semi in Slovenia, which put Crump out of the final and Nicki into it. Huge swing of points there.

 

But Nicki still had to go out there and get the points, and kept his cool in the decider in Norway.

 

And maybe the luck went the other way in 2012. With one single refereeing decision being made another way, Nicki might have nicked it from Chris Holder at the death.

 

All the best

Rob

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As I said, the whole point of a forum is debate. I take your point regarding Pedersen, I just don't rate him as highly as the other Danes. That's all. As for the comparison with Crump, Crump finished in the top 3 10 years in a row and that isn't something Nicki did. I don't see that Crump had any poor years, apart from the last season or two and even then they were only poor by his own incredibly high standards.

 

I'm not saying Nicki isn't a great, I think he is, but I think there are other Danes and others better. I fully understand that someone doesn't win three titles at that level without being a bit special, as I said about Hans. I just feel Hans, Erik and Ole were better.

 

Ease bear in mind, though, it's just opinion, which everyone is free to disagree with.

 

I also fully appreciate that it's hard-impossible even - to compare riders from different eras and I've tried to be reasonable in assessing them and I don't think I'm too far off the mark on the main.

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Some interesting points and it shows that it's all about opinions and people have different opinions..

If I were to give my all time best riders from those I saw then I'd go Erik Gundersen , Hans Nielsen , Sam Ermolenko, Michael Lee and Peter Collins

 

I started going in 1978 so it's an era thing really..I didn't have as much interest when Rickardsson was at the top and I found him a bit dull if I'm honest ..and I'd stopped going when the likes of Jason Crump were at the top because I would think Crump makes any list I would have thought..

 

I think geography plays a lot in people's views..I was a Belle Vue fan so we only got to see the likes of Scott Autrey once a season and he wasn't that great at Hyde Road so it blinkers views whereas Ermolenko came regularly and was fantastic there ...it was easier to judge northern and midland based riders as we saw them a lot more...I can barely recall seeing Malcolm Simmons at Hyde Road !

 

Finally I think the most underrated rider is Jan O Pedersen ..I think he suffers by not being at his peak when Nielsen and Gundersen were at theirs but I feel at the time of his accident he was at his real peak and robbed speedway of an all time great and if he'd carried on he would have won more and been rated higher by a lot of people.

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A massive statement ask people who you RESPECT? saying that what a pathetic post really PATHETIC have a good think on what you have just said if you av a Brain cell left???

 

 

A great thread,great that so many people have different opinions that makes no one right or wrong.The thing i might debate is i think Mauger's best years were 68/73 after that even in a GP series he would of had loads of opposition.

 

Make your mind up!

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A great thread,great that so many people have different opinions that makes no one right or wrong.The thing i might debate is i think Mauger's best years were 68/73 after that even in a GP series he would of had loads of opposition.

Not sure sindey.Thought Mauger had a great season in 1976 and won in 1977 and also 1979.So he could of won from 1968 through to 1979.Probably wouldn't have,but could possibly

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Not sure sindey.Thought Mauger had a great season in 1976 and won in 1977 and also 1979.So he could of won from 1968 through to 1979.Probably wouldn't have,but could possibly

Those are my thoughts too iris123.

Edited by The White Knight
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Not sure sindey.Thought Mauger had a great season in 1976 and won in 1977 and also 1979.So he could of won from 1968 through to 1979.Probably wouldn't have,but could possibly

 

Mauger won have been hard to stop from 1968 to 1975, although Olsen might have just about achieved it in 1972, and Michanek had an exceptional season in 1973.

 

Around 1976, it would have become a bit more open, PC was flying by then and Olsen also had some very good years. And then Lee came along and would have been a very serious contender in 1979.

 

IMO I think Ivan would have won around 7 to 9 titles.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited by lucifer sam
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