BWitcher Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 yeah point taken, but having seen both for many years, I personally see john as quite a decent size gap better, but again its just an opinion I don't disagree, there is plenty to back that up. I think Waiheke had John rated higher in his rankings but he wasn't as far ahead as you might expect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 yep you are correct. neil Collins was decent, but probably even 4th in that family! behind phil/les and peter And the less said about Steve the better! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) Briggs,Fundin,Mauger,Milne,Duggan,Wilkinson,Huxley,Farndon,,Olsen,Nielsen,Penhall,Woffinden,Lee,Carter,S.Moran,Autrey,Sigalos,Gundersen,Moore,Young,Collins,Hancock,Rickardsson, Gollob,T.Jansson,Michanek,Sayfutdinov,Craven,Williams, Pedersen,Adams,J.Crump,happy with that lot Witcher there's a few to be going along with. From the fool who said he wasnt replying anymore to Bwitcher about this subject at, what, 5pm last night ?Get back to work Dick and don't forget your PILLS goodnight Doctor!! Edited December 18, 2015 by sidney 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Briggs,Fundin,Mauger,Milne,Duggan,Wilkinson,Huxley,Farndon,,Olsen,Nielsen,Penhall,Woffinden,Lee,Carter,S.Moran,Autrey,Sigalos,Gundersen,Moore,Young,Collins,Hancock,Rickardsson, Gollob,T.Jansson,Michanek,Sayfutdinov,Craven happy with that lot Witcher there's a few to be going along with. Get back to work Dick and don't forget your PILLS goodnight Doctor!! 28... still another 22 to go .. although of course Shawn Moran doesn't come close to being listed with those riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 28... still another 22 to go .. although of course Shawn Moran doesn't come close to being listed with those riders.Thirty two there and Sam is not fit to clean half of those riders bikes harsh but true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor... Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Briggs,Fundin,Mauger,Milne,Duggan,Wilkinson,Huxley,Farndon,,Olsen,Nielsen,Penhall,Woffinden,Lee,Carter,S.Moran,Autrey,Sigalos,Gundersen,Moore,Young,Collins,Hancock,Rickardsson, Gollob,T.Jansson,Michanek,Sayfutdinov,Craven,Williams, Pedersen,Adams,J.Crump,happy with that lot Witcher there's a few to be going along with. Get back to work Dick and don't forget your PILLS goodnight Doctor! Still fighting the demon drink eh Mark ? yeah point taken, but having seen both for many years, I personally see john as quite a decent size gap better, but again its just an opinion Opinion is what the speedway star readers were asked to give, and they chose chris over john- why is you giving an opinion any more legitimate ? p.rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) Thirty two there and Sam is not fit to clean half of those riders bikes harsh but true. If you insist, but that would make Shawn Moran not fit to clean any of them.. so Ermolenko is still better. Give me one fact, one achievement to demonstrate Shawn Moran was better than Ermolenko.. come on, it can't be that hard to do can it? Oh, and there were 28 as I said till you edited it. Edited December 18, 2015 by BWitcher 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Still fighting the demon drink eh Mark ? Opinion is what the speedway star readers were asked to give, and they chose chris over john- why is you giving an opinion any more legitimate ? p.rick Still fighting the demon drink eh Mark ? Opinion is what the speedway star readers were asked to give, and they chose chris over john- why is you giving an opinion any more legitimate ? p.rick No a nice cup of tea for me, and don't call me Mark you don't know me from Adam if you do come and show your face eh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor... Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 No a nice cup of tea for me, and don't call me Mark you don't know me from Adam if you do come and show your face eh! I'll call you whatever i like, i show my face clearly in my profile picture - unlike yours. I've also named myself in full on here. Do the same and we'll sort this out if you fancy it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 No a nice cup of tea for me, and don't call me Mark you don't know me from Adam if you do come and show your face eh! There's been some decent debate on this thread with the likes of Terry, Colin Mills etc giving their opinions with good reasoning to back it up, why do you consistently have to ruin it with your nonsense? It's perfectly understandable that you had a recollection Shawn Moran was better... its been proved conclusively, without doubt that he wasn't, why not simply be happy you've learned something? As said, I've learned something tonight, that Autrey was better than I have ever previously given him credit for. Admitting you were wrong isn't a sign of weakness, it's simply being a sensible adult. To be honest I also didn't realise just how conclusively Ermolenko was above Moran and it's shown to me by looking at Moran's career closely, he wasn't quite as good as I thought. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 I'll call you whatever i like, i show my face clearly in my profile picture - unlike yours. I've also named myself in full on here. Do the same and we'll sort this out if you fancy itFancy it bigtime anytime give me a shout at the abbey and i can pop a few more pills down your throat love the photo what a pr... you are. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor... Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Fancy it bigtime anytime give me a shout at the abbey and i can pop a few more pills down your throat love the photo what a pr... you are. Thats 3 months away at least - surely you can fit me in sometime before then, Mark ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Thats 3 months away at least - surely you can fit me in sometime before then, Mark ? Come on, be fair, give him time to get training. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinmauger Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Looping back a bit, if you view clips of 1983 Longtrack Final in Moran's last, or next to last ride, Mauger does him a bit of a favour. No link as I can't find the blooming clips again but I'm sure they are still there. Gotta comment on who was better Mauger or Trick: we'll never know as they rode in different times. But the best in any era was / is the best in that era and could only beat whoever lined up against him, there is almost always as least 2 or 3 riders battling to win a World Championship. Don't think anyone was handed the Championship on a plate, not even Sczakiel in 1973. No doubt Mauger was well hacked of at the result in '73 as he was passing riders for fun that day but as he himself said "I fell off, he (Sczakiel) didn't"..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endeavour Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 Looping back a bit, if you view clips of 1983 Longtrack Final in Moran's last, or next to last ride, Mauger does him a bit of a favour. No link as I can't find the blooming clips again but I'm sure they are still there. Gotta comment on who was better Mauger or Trick: we'll never know as they rode in different times. But the best in any era was / is the best in that era and could only beat whoever lined up against him, there is almost always as least 2 or 3 riders battling to win a World Championship. Don't think anyone was handed the Championship on a plate, not even Sczakiel in 1973. No doubt Mauger was well hacked of at the result in '73 as he was passing riders for fun that day but as he himself said "I fell off, he (Sczakiel) didn't"..... The mindset Mauger had, I think he would have won even more titles in the GP system. He left nothing to chance. A great insight to this was in a chapter of his biography, think the very first one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) Fancy it bigtime anytime give me a shout at the abbey and i can pop a few more pills down your throat love the photo what a pr... you are. Won't you both have to take up cudgels at the new stadium next season? Allegedly... Edited December 18, 2015 by Humphrey Appleby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 If you insist, but that would make Shawn Moran not fit to clean any of them.. so Ermolenko is still better. Give me one fact, one achievement to demonstrate Shawn Moran was better than Ermolenko.. come on, it can't be that hard to do can it? Oh, and there were 28 as I said till you edited it. An amusing debate. I preferred Shawn Moran as a rider, but Sam Ermolenko was better no doubt about it. All the facts you pulled together back that right up. Many people find it very hard to judge their favourite riders in a non-biased way. Or indeed those they don't much care for in a neutral way. You won't Nicki Pedersen ever making most people's best of all-time lists for that very reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) Sam Ermolenko always seems to get under-rated. Not quite sure why. Do people remember the fading rider of 1997-2005, rather the superstar of 1985 to 1996? He was the nearest challenger to threatening the Danish domination of the late 80s, and remarkably a serious injury only seemed to spur him on even more. There's no doubt he was the best rider in the world in 1993. Yes, he had a bit of luck on the day, when Frank Ebdon bizarrely didn't spot he shed a chain at the start of the re-run in Heat 15 and gave him another go in the re-re-run. But you often needed a little bit of luck to win a one-off World Final. To me, where Sam proved himself a deserving winner was the World Team Cup Final a couple of weeks later, when he beat Hans Nielsen in a last-heat decider at Coventry. Sam was a fully deserving World Champ. In the ranks of recent one-time winners from around that era, I'd rate him just slightly behind Jan O Pedersen, about level with Per Jonsson, but ahead of Gary Havelock, Billy Hamill and Mark Loram. And Shawn Moran? Come on Sid, there's no comparison there. Moran was ridiculously talented, but Sam Ermolenko was the biggest achiever of the two, without doubt. All the best Rob Edited December 18, 2015 by lucifer sam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) You're looking in the wrong place tbh. Back then, the British League was the strongest world league.. now it isn't, you have to compare it with the Polish or Swedish Leagues. Take the 20th best rider from the British League back in the day and compare with the 20th in either the Swedish or Polish League and you'll get a much more accurate idea. Now, numerous times Sidney has spouted that Ermolenko wouldn't appear in anybodies 'roll of honour' or would come close to being in the top 50 of all time. Wouldn't it be great if a survey could be done? Well, of course one was done by the Speedway Star where readers voted to come up with a Top 100 of all time. Of course, the list can be debated endlessly and there are many riders who I think are in the wrong place... but the point here is Sidneys claim that Ermolenko wouldn't appear if I 'asked around'. Actually he does. He's in 20th place. Autrey? 63rd. Shawn Moran? 52nd. Here's the listing in case anyone missed the issue. RIDER VOTES 1. Ivan Mauger 12,226 2. Hans Nielson 9,505 3. Ove Fundin 7,485 4. Barry Briggs 7,176 5. Ole Olsen 5,527 6. Erik Gundersen 4,008 7. Tony Rickardsson 3,856 8. Bruce Penhall 2,887 9. Peter Collins 2,203 10. Peter Craven 2,061 11. Ronnie Moore 1,999 12. Tomasz Gollob 1,012 13. Mark Loram 843 14. Anders Michanek 600 15. Tommy Knudsen 595 16. Jack Young 559 17. Per Jonsson 544 18. Jack Parker 499 19. Greg Hancock 452 20. Sam Ermolenko 433 21. Jason Crump 399 22. Jerzy Szczakiel 380 23. Vic Duggan 347 24. Billy Hamill 340 25. Jan O. Pedersen 270 26. Kenny Carter 265 27. Michael Lee 265 28. Ryan Sullivan 242 29. Phil Crump 230 30. Zenon Plech 217 31. Nigel Boocock 213 32. Leigh Adams 196 33. Egon Muller 176 34. Jimmy Nilsen 175 35. Joe Screen 166 36. Tommy Jansson 152 37. Bluey Wilkinson 145 38. Kelly Moran 139 39. Henrick Gustafsson 139 40. Edward Jansarz 138 41. Freddie Williams 135 42. Chris Louis 133 43. Igor Plechanov 113 44. Graham Warren 95 45. Lionel Van Praag 94 46. Billy Sanders 91 47. Les Collins 90 48. Oub Lawson 90 49. Vic Huxley 88 50. Todd Wiltshire 85 51. Chris Morton 82 52. Shawn Moran 79 53. Simon Wigg 75 54. John Louis 74 55. Soren Sjosten 73 56. Ron Johnson 73 57. Tom Farndon 71 58. Gary Havelock 71 59. Malcolm Simmons 65 60. Tommy Price 64 61. Martin Ashby 61 62. Ken McKinlay 59 63. Scott Autrey 59 64. Tommy Betts 56 65. Jim Airey 56 66. Bjorn Knutsson 51 67. Olle Nygren 47 68. John Cook 47 69. Larry Ross 45 70. Toni Kasper (junior) 45 71. Christer Lofqvist 43 72. George Hunter 42 73. Brian Karger 41 74. Piotr Protasiewicz 41 75. Eric Boocock 40 76. Peter Karlsson 40 77. Mitch Shirra 39 78. Ray Wilson 38 79. Antonin Woryna 38 80. Lars Gunnestad 37 81. Jack Milne 35 82. Bill Kitchen 34 83. Steve Lawson 34 84. Rafal Dobrucki 34 85. Eric Langton 32 86. Kelvin Tatum 31 87. Sverre Harrfeldt 30 88. Zoltan Adorjan 30 89. John Boulger 29 90. Dave Jessup 28 91. Gordon Kennett 28 92. Ken Le Breton 28 93. Bengt Jansson 28 94. Reidar Eide 27 95. Norman Parker 27 96. Bobby Beaton 26 97. Carl Stonehewer 26 98. John Davis 26 99. Charlie Monk 25 100. Ron Mountford 25 This survey was from the year 2000. Obviously some modern riders would now be ranked higher, particularly Rickardsson, Jason Crump, Nicki Pedersen and Greg Hancock. Others such as Tai Woffinden, Emil Sayfutdinov, Jarek Hampel, Chris Holder, Tomasz Gollob etc would also enter the list, but they wouldn't change the fact that Ermolenko is way above Autrey and Shaun Moran.. in fact, its likely the gap would increase. So Sidney, the public did indeed speak. Mmmmmmmmmmm - interesting fact. Look who is at number Twenty Two. It seems Jerzy Szczakiel was a more popular and more respected Rider than some on here give him credit. EDIT: I do accept, however, that the year the Survey was taken is also relevant. Obviously current Riders at that time would be more in the minds eye than those like say Vic Duggan who were part of the Sport's History even then. Edited December 18, 2015 by The White Knight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 A sixteen year gap from 1975 his career had finished along time before that a cheap shot you are clutching at straws to be honest.I can remember Ermolenko coming over here in 83 think he was partnered with Lee a total nutcase totally out of control i think he averaged 4.25.He was lucky to get a work permit the next year look i like Sam he did well won a title fair play to him but he did not do it in a strong era. Getting back to the topic,i was there in 1977 when Bruce came over to White City.He was pants.Only beat Keith White and fellow American Mike Bast SO??? your point are you pissed??? I was answering one of your posts,which aren't simple to decipher,but I thought you was saying when you first saw Sam he wasn't very good.I said when I first saw Bruce(and I reckon the person who started this thread is regretting it....)he also wasn't very good,but look what happened.So you should have kept your word and stopped posting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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