Bruce Penhall

[BWitcher]

If I had to rank my best American Riders that I had seen I would go for (in order):

 

i) Hancock

 

ii) Penhall

 

iii) Autrey

 

For BW's benefit Ermolenko would be fourth.

 

It's all about opinion though - and that is mine.

 

You're almost right WK.. Autrey v Ermolenko is almost entirely opinion..although facts can be introduced to give credence to the opinion.

 

All I've stated is when two riders are from the same era and can directly be compared, opinion doesn't come into it unless they are pretty equally matched, but when one rider is above another in every available category, opinion is irrelevant.

[Terry]

 

Was there really a 'better calibre' of rider?

 

This has already been discussed in depth and waihekeaces has demonstrated that is somewhat of a myth.

 

More teams = More Heat Leaders = Perception there were better calibre of riders.

 

One thing that is for certain is the top riders had easier races, thus were seen to beaten less.. again, perception, better riders.

 

I hear what you're saying, but I just can't get my head around riders like Cook, King and Barker, being as good as Wyer, Wilson and Davey.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Terry

[BWitcher]

 

I hear what you're saying, but I just can't get my head around riders like Cook, King and Barker, being as good as Wyer, Wilson and Davey.

 

You're looking in the wrong place tbh.

 

Back then, the British League was the strongest world league.. now it isn't, you have to compare it with the Polish or Swedish Leagues. Take the 20th best rider from the British League back in the day and compare with the 20th in either the Swedish or Polish League and you'll get a much more accurate idea.

Now, numerous times Sidney has spouted that Ermolenko wouldn't appear in anybodies 'roll of honour' or would come close to being in the top 50 of all time.

 

Wouldn't it be great if a survey could be done?

 

Well, of course one was done by the Speedway Star where readers voted to come up with a Top 100 of all time. Of course, the list can be debated endlessly and there are many riders who I think are in the wrong place... but the point here is Sidneys claim that Ermolenko wouldn't appear if I 'asked around'.

 

Actually he does. He's in 20th place. Autrey? 63rd. Shawn Moran? 52nd.

 

Here's the listing in case anyone missed the issue.

RIDER VOTES

1. Ivan Mauger 12,226

2. Hans Nielson 9,505

3. Ove Fundin 7,485

4. Barry Briggs 7,176

5. Ole Olsen 5,527

6. Erik Gundersen 4,008

7. Tony Rickardsson 3,856

8. Bruce Penhall 2,887

9. Peter Collins 2,203

10. Peter Craven 2,061

11. Ronnie Moore 1,999

12. Tomasz Gollob 1,012

13. Mark Loram 843

14. Anders Michanek 600

15. Tommy Knudsen 595

16. Jack Young 559

17. Per Jonsson 544

18. Jack Parker 499

19. Greg Hancock 452

20. Sam Ermolenko 433

21. Jason Crump 399

22. Jerzy Szczakiel 380

23. Vic Duggan 347

24. Billy Hamill 340

25. Jan O. Pedersen 270

26. Kenny Carter 265

27. Michael Lee 265

28. Ryan Sullivan 242

29. Phil Crump 230

30. Zenon Plech 217

31. Nigel Boocock 213

32. Leigh Adams 196

33. Egon Muller 176

34. Jimmy Nilsen 175

35. Joe Screen 166

36. Tommy Jansson 152

37. Bluey Wilkinson 145

38. Kelly Moran 139

39. Henrick Gustafsson 139

40. Edward Jansarz 138

41. Freddie Williams 135

42. Chris Louis 133

43. Igor Plechanov 113

44. Graham Warren 95

45. Lionel Van Praag 94

46. Billy Sanders 91

47. Les Collins 90

48. Oub Lawson 90

49. Vic Huxley 88

50. Todd Wiltshire 85

51. Chris Morton 82

52. Shawn Moran 79

53. Simon Wigg 75

54. John Louis 74

55. Soren Sjosten 73

56. Ron Johnson 73

57. Tom Farndon 71

58. Gary Havelock 71

59. Malcolm Simmons 65

60. Tommy Price 64

61. Martin Ashby 61

62. Ken McKinlay 59

63. Scott Autrey 59

64. Tommy Betts 56

65. Jim Airey 56

66. Bjorn Knutsson 51

67. Olle Nygren 47

68. John Cook 47

69. Larry Ross 45

70. Toni Kasper (junior) 45

71. Christer Lofqvist 43

72. George Hunter 42

73. Brian Karger 41

74. Piotr Protasiewicz 41

75. Eric Boocock 40

76. Peter Karlsson 40

77. Mitch Shirra 39

78. Ray Wilson 38

79. Antonin Woryna 38

80. Lars Gunnestad 37

81. Jack Milne 35

82. Bill Kitchen 34

83. Steve Lawson 34

84. Rafal Dobrucki 34

85. Eric Langton 32

86. Kelvin Tatum 31

87. Sverre Harrfeldt 30

88. Zoltan Adorjan 30

89. John Boulger 29

90. Dave Jessup 28

91. Gordon Kennett 28

92. Ken Le Breton 28

93. Bengt Jansson 28

94. Reidar Eide 27

95. Norman Parker 27

96. Bobby Beaton 26

97. Carl Stonehewer 26

98. John Davis 26

99. Charlie Monk 25

100. Ron Mountford 25

This survey was from the year 2000. Obviously some modern riders would now be ranked higher, particularly Rickardsson, Jason Crump, Nicki Pedersen and Greg Hancock.

Others such as Tai Woffinden, Emil Sayfutdinov, Jarek Hampel, Chris Holder, Tomasz Gollob etc would also enter the list, but they wouldn't change the fact that Ermolenko is way above Autrey and Shaun Moran.. in fact, its likely the gap would increase.

So Sidney, the public did indeed speak.

Edited December 18, 2015 by BWitcher

[ColinMills]

 

I hear what you're saying, but I just can't get my head around riders like Cook, King and Barker, being as good as Wyer, Wilson and Davey.

agree with you on this, I think there were some really good second strings. lets face it, no one out side the old british league

div 1 would of made the british final in the 70s, whereas id say 70% are lower league. even Dave Morton, mike lanham,

Ian Turner, Reg Wilson, Richard Hellsen, Dave kennett were all pretty decent with plenty I missed out

 

You're looking in the wrong place tbh.

 

Back then, the British League was the strongest world league.. now it isn't, you have to compare it with the Polish or Swedish Leagues. Take the 20th best rider from the British League back in the day and compare with the 20th in either the Swedish or Polish League and you'll get a much more accurate idea.

Now, numerous times Sidney has spouted that Ermolenko wouldn't appear in anybodies 'roll of honour' or would come close to being in the top 50 of all time.

 

Wouldn't it be great if a survey could be done?

 

Well, of course one was done by the Speedway Star where readers voted to come up with a Top 100 of all time. Of course, the list can be debated endlessly and there are many riders who I think are in the wrong place... but the point here is Sidneys claim that Ermolenko wouldn't appear if I 'asked around'.

 

Actually he does. He's in 20th place. Autrey? 63rd. Shawn Moran? 52nd.

 

Here's the listing in case anyone missed the issue.

RIDER VOTES

1. Ivan Mauger 12,226

2. Hans Nielson 9,505

3. Ove Fundin 7,485

4. Barry Briggs 7,176

5. Ole Olsen 5,527

6. Erik Gundersen 4,008

7. Tony Rickardsson 3,856

8. Bruce Penhall 2,887

9. Peter Collins 2,203

10. Peter Craven 2,061

11. Ronnie Moore 1,999

12. Tomasz Gollob 1,012

13. Mark Loram 843

14. Anders Michanek 600

15. Tommy Knudsen 595

16. Jack Young 559

17. Per Jonsson 544

18. Jack Parker 499

19. Greg Hancock 452

20. Sam Ermolenko 433

21. Jason Crump 399

22. Jerzy Szczakiel 380

23. Vic Duggan 347

24. Billy Hamill 340

25. Jan O. Pedersen 270

26. Kenny Carter 265

27. Michael Lee 265

28. Ryan Sullivan 242

29. Phil Crump 230

30. Zenon Plech 217

31. Nigel Boocock 213

32. Leigh Adams 196

33. Egon Muller 176

34. Jimmy Nilsen 175

35. Joe Screen 166

36. Tommy Jansson 152

37. Bluey Wilkinson 145

38. Kelly Moran 139

39. Henrick Gustafsson 139

40. Edward Jansarz 138

41. Freddie Williams 135

42. Chris Louis 133

43. Igor Plechanov 113

44. Graham Warren 95

45. Lionel Van Praag 94

46. Billy Sanders 91

47. Les Collins 90

48. Oub Lawson 90

49. Vic Huxley 88

50. Todd Wiltshire 85

51. Chris Morton 82

52. Shawn Moran 79

53. Simon Wigg 75

54. John Louis 74

55. Soren Sjosten 73

56. Ron Johnson 73

57. Tom Farndon 71

58. Gary Havelock 71

59. Malcolm Simmons 65

60. Tommy Price 64

61. Martin Ashby 61

62. Ken McKinlay 59

63. Scott Autrey 59

64. Tommy Betts 56

65. Jim Airey 56

66. Bjorn Knutsson 51

67. Olle Nygren 47

68. John Cook 47

69. Larry Ross 45

70. Toni Kasper (junior) 45

71. Christer Lofqvist 43

72. George Hunter 42

73. Brian Karger 41

74. Piotr Protasiewicz 41

75. Eric Boocock 40

76. Peter Karlsson 40

77. Mitch Shirra 39

78. Ray Wilson 38

79. Antonin Woryna 38

80. Lars Gunnestad 37

81. Jack Milne 35

82. Bill Kitchen 34

83. Steve Lawson 34

84. Rafal Dobrucki 34

85. Eric Langton 32

86. Kelvin Tatum 31

87. Sverre Harrfeldt 30

88. Zoltan Adorjan 30

89. John Boulger 29

90. Dave Jessup 28

91. Gordon Kennett 28

92. Ken Le Breton 28

93. Bengt Jansson 28

94. Reidar Eide 27

95. Norman Parker 27

96. Bobby Beaton 26

97. Carl Stonehewer 26

98. John Davis 26

99. Charlie Monk 25

100. Ron Mountford 25

hows chris Louis above john Louis?

[stratton]

You're looking in the wrong place tbh.

 

Back then, the British League was the strongest world league.. now it isn't, you have to compare it with the Polish or Swedish Leagues. Take the 20th best rider from the British League back in the day and compare with the 20th in either the Swedish or Polish League and you'll get a much more accurate idea.Now, numerous times Sidney has spouted that Ermolenko wouldn't appear in anybodies 'roll of honour' or would come close to being in the top 50 of all time.

 

Wouldn't it be great if a survey could be done?

 

Well, of course one was done by the Speedway Star where readers voted to come up with a Top 100 of all time. Of course, the list can be debated endlessly and there are many riders who I think are in the wrong place... but the point here is Sidneys claim that Ermolenko wouldn't appear if I 'asked around'.

 

Actually he does. He's in 20th place. Autrey? 63rd. Shawn Moran? 52nd.

 

Here's the listing in case anyone missed the issue.

RIDER VOTES

1. Ivan Mauger 12,226

2. Hans Nielson 9,505

3. Ove Fundin 7,485

4. Barry Briggs 7,176

5. Ole Olsen 5,527

6. Erik Gundersen 4,008

7. Tony Rickardsson 3,856

8. Bruce Penhall 2,887

9. Peter Collins 2,203

10. Peter Craven 2,061

11. Ronnie Moore 1,999

12. Tomasz Gollob 1,012

13. Mark Loram 843

14. Anders Michanek 600

15. Tommy Knudsen 595

16. Jack Young 559

17. Per Jonsson 544

18. Jack Parker 499

19. Greg Hancock 452

20. Sam Ermolenko 433

21. Jason Crump 399

22. Jerzy Szczakiel 380

23. Vic Duggan 347

24. Billy Hamill 340

25. Jan O. Pedersen 270

26. Kenny Carter 265

27. Michael Lee 265

28. Ryan Sullivan 242

29. Phil Crump 230

30. Zenon Plech 217

31. Nigel Boocock 213

32. Leigh Adams 196

33. Egon Muller 176

34. Jimmy Nilsen 175

35. Joe Screen 166

36. Tommy Jansson 152

37. Bluey Wilkinson 145

38. Kelly Moran 139

39. Henrick Gustafsson 139

40. Edward Jansarz 138

41. Freddie Williams 135

42. Chris Louis 133

43. Igor Plechanov 113

44. Graham Warren 95

45. Lionel Van Praag 94

46. Billy Sanders 91

47. Les Collins 90

48. Oub Lawson 90

49. Vic Huxley 88

50. Todd Wiltshire 85

51. Chris Morton 82

52. Shawn Moran 79

53. Simon Wigg 75

54. John Louis 74

55. Soren Sjosten 73

56. Ron Johnson 73

57. Tom Farndon 71

58. Gary Havelock 71

59. Malcolm Simmons 65

60. Tommy Price 64

61. Martin Ashby 61

62. Ken McKinlay 59

63. Scott Autrey 59

64. Tommy Betts 56

65. Jim Airey 56

66. Bjorn Knutsson 51

67. Olle Nygren 47

68. John Cook 47

69. Larry Ross 45

70. Toni Kasper (junior) 45

71. Christer Lofqvist 43

72. George Hunter 42

73. Brian Karger 41

74. Piotr Protasiewicz 41

75. Eric Boocock 40

76. Peter Karlsson 40

77. Mitch Shirra 39

78. Ray Wilson 38

79. Antonin Woryna 38

80. Lars Gunnestad 37

81. Jack Milne 35

82. Bill Kitchen 34

83. Steve Lawson 34

84. Rafal Dobrucki 34

85. Eric Langton 32

86. Kelvin Tatum 31

87. Sverre Harrfeldt 30

88. Zoltan Adorjan 30

89. John Boulger 29

90. Dave Jessup 28

91. Gordon Kennett 28

92. Ken Le Breton 28

93. Bengt Jansson 28

94. Reidar Eide 27

95. Norman Parker 27

96. Bobby Beaton 26

97. Carl Stonehewer 26

98. John Davis 26

99. Charlie Monk 25

100. Ron Mountford 25

 

Are you serious ? was that survey done at a Christmas fancy dress god be serious Witcher.

[The Doctor...]

hows chris Louis above john Louis?

 

Because more people voted for Chris.

 

Next question ?

[stratton]

You're almost right WK.. Autrey v Ermolenko is almost entirely opinion..although facts can be introduced to give credence to the opinion.

 

All I've stated is when two riders are from the same era and can directly be compared, opinion doesn't come into it unless they are pretty equally matched, but when one rider is above another in every available category, opinion is irrelevant.

 

Not facts just your FANTASY do you NEVER LEARN??

[BWitcher]

Are you serious ? was that survey done at a Christmas fancy dress god be serious Witcher.

 

Couldn't be more serious.

 

You claimed folk wouldn't rate Ermolenko higher than Autrey or Moran.

 

The FACT is in the biggest such survey ever undertaken, speedway fans did.

 

Lesson is Sidney, don't ask for something that you might not like the answer too.

Edited December 18, 2015 by BWitcher

[stratton]

Wow, and within 2 years he was in a run off for the World Title. What an amazing rider he must have been to improve so much, so fast! With only one season of racing in Europe too.

 

As said, your opinions are utterly irrelevant when comparing two riders from the same era.

 

The 'FACT' is Sidney, apart from your continued quoting of 1983 you have not and cannot come up with a single reason to back up your 'opinion' that Moran was better... simply because he wasn't.

 

I'll leave you to continue trolling now.

Not trolling and i am happy with my opinion now you go along and DREAM in your own little World 1993 god what a poor level it was then piss poor.

[ColinMills]

how was that survey conducted please bw? im interested in the Louis result?

[BWitcher]

Not facts just your FANTASY do you NEVER LEARN??

 

Sidney, give it a rest man!

 

There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko reaching 8 World Finals and Shawn Moran 3. That is FACT.

 

There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko having a higher average than Moran 8 out of 9 seasons from 1986 onwards. That is FACT.

 

There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko being World Speedway Champion, when Moran never was. That is FACT.

 

There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko being on the rostrum 3 other times, when Moran managed that once (subsequently disqualified). That is FACT.

 

There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko winning the BLRC 3 times to Morans 1. That is FACT.

 

There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko being voted by speedway fans 20th best of all time, whilst Moran was 52nd. That is FACT.

 

 

Do feel free to post any facts you have to back up your claim Moran was better.

how was that survey conducted please bw? im interested in the Louis result?

 

The readers of the Speedway Star were asked to send in their top 10 riders I believe and the results were tallied. I'm not by any means saying that it is an accurate list as there are some weird names on there, but it dismisses Sidneys made up claim that nobody else would rank Ermolenko above Moran and Autrey.

Edited December 18, 2015 by BWitcher

[stratton]

Was there really a 'better calibre' of rider?

 

This has already been discussed in depth and waihekeaces has demonstrated that is somewhat of a myth.

 

More teams = More Heat Leaders = Perception there were better calibre of riders.

 

One thing that is for certain is the top riders had easier races, thus were seen to beaten less.. again, perception, better riders.

Bull crap again.!

[BWitcher]

Not trolling and i am happy with my opinion now you go along and DREAM in your own little World 1993 god what a poor level it was then piss poor.

 

Maybe it was, but Shawn Moran was also riding in 1993.. but he couldn't even make the World Final in such a piss poor standard.

 

Not really helping yourself with that claim!

[ColinMills]

 

Sidney, give it a rest man!

 

There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko reaching 8 World Finals and Shawn Moran 3. That is FACT.

 

There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko having a higher average than Moran 8 out of 9 seasons from 1986 onwards. That is FACT.

 

There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko being World Speedway Champion, when Moran never was. That is FACT.

 

There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko being on the rostrum 3 other times, when Moran managed that once (subsequently disqualified). That is FACT.

 

There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko winning the BLRC 3 times to Morans 1. That is FACT.

 

There is nothing fantasy about Ermolenko being voted by speedway fans 20th best of all time, whilst Moran was 52nd. That is FACT.

 

 

Do feel free to post any facts you have to back up your claim Moran was better.

 

The readers of the Speedway Star were asked to send in their top 10 riders I believe and the results were tallied.

if we are judging by achievement, chris is nowhere near john. john won world team cups/world pairs/blrc, none of which chris

achieved, also higher league aves

[The Doctor...]

Not facts just your FANTASY do you NEVER LEARN??

 

From the fool who said he wasnt replying anymore to Bwitcher about this subject at, what, 5pm last night ?

[Terry]

agree with you on this, I think there were some really good second strings. lets face it, no one out side the old british league

div 1 would of made the british final in the 70s, whereas id say 70% are lower league. even Dave Morton, mike lanham,

Ian Turner, Reg Wilson, Richard Hellsen, Dave kennett were all pretty decent with plenty I missed out

hows chris Louis above john Louis?

 

I must take issue with you regarding Dave Kennett. He rode for Hackney from 71-76 and it must be said, he wasn't very good.

He was a definite second division rider. In fact it was strange how good Gordon was compared to Dave and Barney.

Not at all like other racing brothers.

[BWitcher]

if we are judging by achievement, chris is nowhere near john. john won world team cups/world pairs/blrc, none of which chris

achieved, also higher league aves

 

I'm not saying Chris was better than John, however world team cups aren't really relevant as you are relying on team mates, nor are the higher league averages due to the different formats they rode in.

[ColinMills]

 

I must take issue with you regarding Dave Kennett. He rode for Hackney from 71-76 and it must be said, he wasn't very good.

He was a definite second division rider. In fact it was strange how good Gordon was compared to Dave and Barney.

Not at all like other racing brothers.

yep you are correct. neil Collins was decent, but probably even 4th in that family! behind phil/les and peter

[BWitcher]

Bull crap again.!

 

No it isn't bullcrap.

 

Yet again it is bona fide fact.

 

If there are 8 teams in a division, there are 24 heat leaders. If there are 16 teams in a division there are 48 heat leaders.

[ColinMills]

 

I'm not saying Chris was better than John, however world team cups aren't really relevant as you are relying on team mates, nor are the higher league averages due to the different formats they rode in.

yeah point taken, but having seen both for many years, I personally see john as quite a decent size gap better, but again

its just an opinion