Bruce Penhall

[iris123]

Bast of course is one of the top 20 riders of all time, and in 77 was still close to his peak..

I think according to some it must be a toss up between Bast and Buzz as to who is the most talented rider of all time

[Halifaxtiger]

I just want to put my two-penneth into the mix here.

 

I happen to think thank Hans Nielsen was, and is, terribly overated.

 

I know Rob will leap to his defence .... but I just never felt he was that special.

I always felt he just happened to be the best guy around when the rest were pretty p!ss poor.

He was the best of probably the worst bunch ever.

 

But even then he underachieved massively.

 

He wasn't World Champion in so many years when he just should have been if he were anything special.

 

Not World Champ in 90.

Not World Champ in 91.

Not World Champ in 92.

Not World Champ in 93.

Not World Champ in 94.

 

He just should have been because, at the time, the rest were pretty mediocre.

 

British League averages for Nielsen:

 

1979 10.29. 1980 10.68 1981 9.79 1982 9.89 1983 10.81 1984 10.76 1985 11.34 1986 11.57 1987 11.37 1988 11.03

 

To suggest that Nielsen was overrated is without doubt one of the most ridiculous comments I have ever read on here.

 

For me, he's one of the greatest speedway riders ever.

 

 

 

 

Never particularly liked BP, but he was brilliant for British speedway at the time, until he skulked off that is !

 

At the end of 1981, Penhall was absolutely everything that world speedway needed in its champion. A fantastic rider, bucket loads of charisma and film star looks.

 

By the end of 1982, that had been severely dented. It started in the England/USA test series, when he held the BSPA to ransom by demanding appearance money. Then there was White City. Riders cheat in such circumstances, but what they don't do is ram it down paying customers throats. Then he walked out on the sport, signifying that he only rode in 1982 to compete in the World Championship.

 

 

What a bunch of sour grapes. Muller was far and away the best rider on the day, which is what counted in a World Final. He fully deserved the title.

 

All the best

Rob

 

On the day, he was. The question is whether he would have won it anywhere other than Norden, where it appeared it was totally set up for him to win.

 

Great champions don't need that sort of help and any victory is at least partly hollow for others when they do.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Halifaxtiger

[martinmauger]

Adding my 2p's worth, but not stiring the Penhall pot, here are Egon Muller British League scores 1973 & 1976:

 

Coatbridge record (1973), 1 at Coatbridge & 1 at Swindon: 2 matches; 1 point (from 7 rides).

 

Hull record (1976):

 

At Birmingham; 11 (from 4 rides)

At Hull; 9 + 1 bonus (4 rides)

At Hull; 8 + 1 (4)

At Newport; 9 inc 1 fall (4)

At Cradley Heath; 2 (2)

At Hull; 7 + 2 (4)

At Coventry; 13 (5)

At Halifax; 12 (5)

 

Ave 8.75, calculated 'old school' - rides divded by total points x 4. So not a bad speedway rider overall.

 

1976 World Final (Katowice, Poland) 8 inc 1 fall (5)

 

It was known he rode for Hull to gain speedway experience for the 1976 World Final, for which he'd qualified, no doubt the fact Barry Briggs rode for the Vikings in that year (1976) helped. It was rumoured Muller was paid £50 per meeting, ony had an agreement up to the World Final of that year and rented a bike (fitted with is own 'cow horn' bars) from Taffy Owen and was so impressed with it he whipped out a thick wad of notes and bought it for cash for a cool (at the time) £1,400, probably equivelant to £6,000 or so in today's money. It was stated he wasn't really interested in speedway but was persuaded to ride it by the German authorities in order to gain permsission ride grasstrack, longtrack & sandtrack, his disciplines of choice.

 

To stir the Penhall pot then: I've also the 'extra turn' Penahall made in THAT race by flicking his back wheel out but still can't work out whether he actually hit Carter or not, think he probably did. That said, it WAS a World Final and (almost) anything went, short of putting ones rivals 'by the hotdog stand' - no one ever won without being a bit ruthless when necessary, plus Carter and Penhall weren't exactly pals. (Really) hate to say it but the ref made the right decision; Penhall was in front at the time. And it has to be said Carter made the mistake of being in the wrong place at the very wrong time when if he'd been racing another rider he may well have knocked the throttle off a tad, turned back and given chase where he could caught Penhall up once more in 1/2 to 3/4 of a lap and then had another chance to pass him. One wonders what might have occured then (!) All congecture of course but the '82 Final, or that race at least, still gets talked about....

[stratton]

Adding my 2p's worth, but not stiring the Penhall pot, here are Egon Muller British League scores 1973 & 1976:

 

Coatbridge record (1973), 1 at Coatbridge & 1 at Swindon: 2 matches; 1 point (from 7 rides).

 

Hull record (1976):

 

At Birmingham; 11 (from 4 rides)

At Hull; 9 + 1 bonus (4 rides)

At Hull; 8 + 1 (4)

At Newport; 9 inc 1 fall (4)

At Cradley Heath; 2 (2)

At Hull; 7 + 2 (4)

At Coventry; 13 (5)

At Halifax; 12 (5)

 

Ave 8.75, calculated 'old school' - rides divded by total points x 4. So not a bad speedway rider overall.

 

1976 World Final (Katowice, Poland) 8 inc 1 fall (5)

 

It was known he rode for Hull to gain speedway experience for the 1976 World Final, for which he'd qualified, no doubt the fact Barry Briggs rode for the Vikings in that year (1976) helped. It was rumoured Muller was paid £50 per meeting, ony had an agreement up to the World Final of that year and rented a bike (fitted with is own 'cow horn' bars) from Taffy Owen and was so impressed with it he whipped out a thick wad of notes and bought it for cash for a cool (at the time) £1,400, probably equivelant to £6,000 or so in today's money. It was stated he wasn't really interested in speedway but was persuaded to ride it by the German authorities in order to gain permsission ride grasstrack, longtrack & sandtrack, his disciplines of choice.

 

To stir the Penhall pot then: I've also the 'extra turn' Penahall made in THAT race by flicking his back wheel out but still can't work out whether he actually hit Carter or not, think he probably did. That said, it WAS a World Final and (almost) anything went, short of putting ones rivals 'by the hotdog stand' - no one ever won without being a bit ruthless when necessary, plus Carter and Penhall weren't exactly pals. (Really) hate to say it but the ref made the right decision; Penhall was in front at the time. And it has to be said Carter made the mistake of being in the wrong place at the very wrong time when if he'd been racing another rider he may well have knocked the throttle off a tad, turned back and given chase where he could caught Penhall up once more in 1/2 to 3/4 of a lap and then had another chance to pass him. One wonders what might have occured then (!) All congecture of course but the '82 Final, or that race at least, still gets talked about....

Great post end of enjoyed the read.

Yet within 2 years, and only 1 season of racing in Europe he was in a run off for the World Title in 1985..

 

Thanks for proving my point of how good he was

Against a pretty average era Ask ANYBODY ?.? Now i ask you and please give me a answer when did you ever see Lee ride? i can remember when i first see Ermolenko ride and god he did well but for overall talent Ermolenko is no where near the top fifty the best ever ?.. Lee WOULD be a massive difference oops.

[steve roberts]

 

British League averages for Nielsen:

 

1979 10.29. 1980 10.68 1981 9.79 1982 9.89 1983 10.81 1984 10.76 1985 11.34 1986 11.57 1987 11.37 1988 11.03

 

To suggest that Nielsen was overrated is without doubt one of the most ridiculous comments I have ever read on here.

 

For me, he's one of the greatest speedway riders ever.

 

 

At the end of 1981, Penhall was absolutely everything that world speedway needed in its champion. A fantastic rider, bucket loads of charisma and film star looks.

 

By the end of 1982, that had been severely dented. It started in the England/USA test series, when he held the BSPA to ransom by demanding appearance money. Then there was White City. Riders cheat in such circumstances, but what they don't do is ram it down paying customers throats. Then he walked out on the sport, signifying that he only rode in 1982 to compete in the World Championship.

 

 

On the day, he was. The question is whether he would have won it anywhere other than Norden, where it appeared it was totally set up for him to win.

 

Great champions don't need that sort of help and any victory is at least partly hollow for others when they do.

 

 

British League averages for Nielsen:

 

1979 10.29. 1980 10.68 1981 9.79 1982 9.89 1983 10.81 1984 10.76 1985 11.34 1986 11.57 1987 11.37 1988 11.03

 

To suggest that Nielsen was overrated is without doubt one of the most ridiculous comments I have ever read on here.

 

For me, he's one of the greatest speedway riders ever.

 

 

At the end of 1981, Penhall was absolutely everything that world speedway needed in its champion. A fantastic rider, bucket loads of charisma and film star looks.

 

By the end of 1982, that had been severely dented. It started in the England/USA test series, when he held the BSPA to ransom by demanding appearance money. Then there was White City. Riders cheat in such circumstances, but what they don't do is ram it down paying customers throats. Then he walked out on the sport, signifying that he only rode in 1982 to compete in the World Championship.

 

 

On the day, he was. The question is whether he would have won it anywhere other than Norden, where it appeared it was totally set up for him to win.

 

Great champions don't need that sort of help and any victory is at least partly hollow for others when they do.

I agree! A ludicrous statement regarding Hans Nielsen.

 

To add his 1989 average was 10.91 1990 - 10.36 91 - 10.50 92 - 10.24 93 - 10.05 94 - 9.98

 

Not taking into consideration his many other achievements over a very long period (1977 to 1999) Greatness isn't just gauged on Individual World Champion successes but based on overall performances both as an individual and team player (League and/or International)

[stratton]

Yet within 2 years, and only 1 season of racing in Europe he was in a run off for the World Title in 1985..

 

Thanks for proving my point of how good he was

Lee would be in the top 50 of all time Sam i ent got a place for him enlighten me ?

[BWitcher]

Great post end of enjoyed the read.

Against a pretty average era Ask ANYBODY ?.? Now i ask you and please give me a answer when did you ever see Lee ride? i can remember when i first see Ermolenko ride and god he did well but for overall talent Ermolenko is no where near the top fifty the best ever ?.. Lee WOULD be a massive difference oops.

 

So, lets get this straight, you've stated that Nielsen was one of the very best ever... but Ermolenko, who for a 3 year spell was as good and could be argued bettered Nielsen, wasn't in that period one of the best? You've defeated your own argument again Sidney.

[Terry]

 

I like to be fair.

 

And Sam was exceedingly lucky in the re-run, to say the least.

 

But in 1986, the ref got it spot on. What's hilarious about that one is that some try to prove Hans was at fault, by posting the worst video footage-ever posted from somewhere across the other side of the track, around 100m away. When there's far better Danish TV coverage, shot from almost head on, which shows Hans sticking to the inside and TK cutting back across. Knudsen to blame for his own fall.

 

All the best

Rob

 

I can't believe you think Knudsen was at fault. Hans clearly clattered into Tommy's front wheel before he had any chance of taking any avoiding action. Nielsen certainly didn't stick to the inside, he was out of control near the fence when Knudsen came off.

 

There wasn't any difference between this and Hans knocking Ermolenko off. As others have said, as great a rider as Nielsen was, he was prone to the odd desperate move in world championships.

[stratton]

I can't believe you think Knudsen was at fault. Hans clearly clattered into Tommy's front wheel before he had any chance of taking any avoiding action. Nielsen certainly didn't stick to the inside, he was out of control near the fence when Knudsen came off.

 

There wasn't any difference between this and Hans knocking Ermolenko off. As others have said, as great a rider as Nielsen was, he was prone to the odd desperate move in world championships.

Terry i have watched the race endless times Tommy made a big mistake and Hans would of taken him anyway but Nielsen made a huge error and was VERY lucky not to be excluded.

[BWitcher]

Just watched the 86 incident as hadn't seen it in some time.. very 50/50 I would say. Nielsen was lucky in that the referee normally takes the easy option and excludes the guy on the inside, BUT it was clear that Knudsen did lock up and try to turn back on the slow motion replay, he had room to continue on his line... that said, Nielsen was also beginning to drift out.

[stratton]

So, lets get this straight, you've stated that Nielsen was one of the very best ever... but Ermolenko, who for a 3 year spell was as good and could be argued bettered Nielsen, wasn't in that period one of the best? You've defeated your own argument again Sidney.

No Nielsen was in a different league to your mate Sam a DIFFERENT league and before i said PENHALL, AUTREY ,SIGALOS,S.MORAN were in front of him in the USA pecking order WITCHER no one ever mentions your good old mate Sam in the roll of honour i wonder WHY.?? no where near a top fifty.

[BWitcher]

No Nielsen was in a different league to your mate Sam a DIFFERENT league and before i said PENHALL, AUTREY ,SIGALOS,S.MORAN were in front of him in the USA pecking order WITCHER no one ever mentions your good old mate Sam in the roll of honour i wonder WHY.?? no where near a top fifty.

 

As I have told you numerous times, he wasn't in a different league 1991-1993.

 

As for Autrey, Sigalos or Shawn Moran, they didn't get close to anything that Ermolenko achieved. Very very good riders, but Ermolenko was a level above.

 

'Some' peoples opinions of Ermolenko are very much clouded by how long he raced for and they remember him in his final years more so, forgetting just how good he was in that period. As for top 50.. he would be in it with absolute ease.. but if you insist otherwise, go ahead and name me 50 above him... although based on Autrey, Sigalos and Moran it won't mean much.

Sidney, easy question for you.

 

Knock me up a list of riders who have achieved the following..

 

At least 1 World Title

At least 1 BLRC

At least 1 11+ averaging season.

[lucifer sam]

Just watched the 86 incident as hadn't seen it in some time.. very 50/50 I would say. Nielsen was lucky in that the referee normally takes the easy option and excludes the guy on the inside, BUT it was clear that Knudsen did lock up and try to turn back on the slow motion replay, he had room to continue on his line... that said, Nielsen was also beginning to drift out.

 

Knudsen made a hash of the corner, and drifted too wide. It gave Nielsen the gap he needed. You've then got Nielsen (in front) on the inside half of the track, and Knudsen (now behind) on the outside. Knudsen then turns back in (as you say, he had room to continue on his line), and hits Nielsen's back wheel with his front wheel; Knudsen comes down, Nielsen briefly loses control as a result of being hit; the unfortunate Castagna catches TK's bike.

 

I assume you're also watching the Danish (or German?) coverage - it's far superior to the video of the final, which doesn't capture it well at all.

 

The 1993 final is different - Nielsen picks up a bit of drive and goes into Ermolenko's line. But in 1986, it was Knudsen who changed line to cause the contact. He made a mistake, and tried to correct it too late.

 

All the best

Rob

[waiheke1]

Lee Jonsson Jan o Havelock from around that era did not .

Edited December 17, 2015 by waihekeaces1

[Humphrey Appleby]

No-one's mentioned Jimmy Nilsen. Wasn't he quite handy for a while?

[stratton]

As I have told you numerous times, he wasn't in a different league 1991-1993.

 

As for Autrey, Sigalos or Shawn Moran, they didn't get close to anything that Ermolenko achieved. Very very good riders, but Ermolenko was a level above.

 

'Some' peoples opinions of Ermolenko are very much clouded by how long he raced for and they remember him in his final years more so, forgetting just how good he was in that period. As for top 50.. he would be in it with absolute ease.. but if you insist otherwise, go ahead and name me 50 above him... although based on Autrey, Sigalos and Moran it won't mean much.

I was a Malc Holloway fan ok a totally different level to Sam but you can become blinkered you think they are better than they actually are you come into that categree. SAM was certainly behind PENHALL and AUTREY in my book SIGALOS and S.MORAN all better stylists and better riders in my book, as for naming fifty better riders ever SO easy won't go there have a look from 1930 onwards Huxley Farndon,Duggan,Young ect) have a rethink Witcher, Edited December 17, 2015 by sidney

[Terry]

Lee Jonsson Jan o Havelock from around that era did not .

 

Did not what?

[stratton]

As I have told you numerous times, he wasn't in a different league 1991-1993.

 

As for Autrey, Sigalos or Shawn Moran, they didn't get close to anything that Ermolenko achieved. Very very good riders, but Ermolenko was a level above.

 

'Some' peoples opinions of Ermolenko are very much clouded by how long he raced for and they remember him in his final years more so, forgetting just how good he was in that period. As for top 50.. he would be in it with absolute ease.. but if you insist otherwise, go ahead and name me 50 above him... although based on Autrey, Sigalos and Moran it won't mean much.Sidney, easy question for you.

 

Knock me up a list of riders who have achieved the following..

 

At least 1 World Title

At least 1 BLRC

At least 1 11+ averaging season.

Those riders i named rode in a better era Than Sam Ermolenko and they were all better riders Ermolenko is never mentioned in a roll of honour never will be.

[Terry]

 

 

 

 

No-one's mentioned Jimmy Nilsen. Wasn't he quite handy for a while?

 

Ahh, Screenys mate. Great rider, not so good if he missed the gate.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Terry

[stratton]

Getting back to the topic,i was there in 1977 when Bruce came over to White City.He was pants.Only beat Keith White and fellow American Mike Bast

SO??? your point are you pissed???