BWitcher Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) I'd probably pick Jan O slightly above the other two for a similar reason - we always seemed to be riding against Cradley, so I saw a lot of him. Jan O was the one rider who could beat Hans from the back around Cowley - well apart from Carl Blackbird, but that was a one-night only event. From around 1988 onwards, Jan O became Hans' toughest opponent at domestic level. I thought Jan O was a brilliant rider - the amount of speed he could generate, even around the smaller tracks, was simply breath-taking. I feel he would have also been World Champion in 1990, but for the freak off-track injury that ruled him out of the final. All the best Rob Jan O was brilliant and on his day one of the most exciting riders ever. However, he was also prone to some inconsistent meetings. Like Jonsson he was mostly outperformed by Ermolenko for the majority of his career. I'd place him above Jonsson but I don't think there is much in it. Both behind Ermolenko. All 3 behind Nielsen. I'd forgotten about the go kart accident and Jan O also missing the 1990 World Final that Per won.. Edited December 17, 2015 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) Nielsen was in the early part of his career when all those riders were around, but still managed to share three titles apiece with Gundersen before he was forced to retire. So he was clearly at least as good as Gundersen by any measure. Lee is I think a similar age to Nielsen, but despite his undoubted talent, Lee's career petered out through lifestyle choice. There's little evidence to suggest Lee would have gone on to greater and better things. Sanders was a few years older than Nielsen, and had not won a World title by the time of his death. Sigalos - forced to retire too young and too early, so can't say one way or the other. Nielsen also rode against Per Jonsson and Tony Rickardsson for the significant part of his career, who were absolutely amongst the best riders of all time. Ermolenko, Knudsen, Pedersen and even Tatum were also not rubbish either, although I'd not quite put them in the same league. Lee in 83 had his best season( mainly the last three months since 1979 ) so he was hardly on the wain as you said his mistakes cost him his career with a big HELP from Eglese,Ebden and Bracher.Also before Billy's death he had had his best two years in speedway and was approaching his peak. Nielsen was in the early part of his career when all those riders were around, but still managed to share three titles apiece with Gundersen before he was forced to retire. So he was clearly at least as good as Gundersen by any measure. Lee is I think a similar age to Nielsen, but despite his undoubted talent, Lee's career petered out through lifestyle choice. There's little evidence to suggest Lee would have gone on to greater and better things. Sanders was a few years older than Nielsen, and had not won a World title by the time of his death. Sigalos - forced to retire too young and too early, so can't say one way or the other. Nielsen also rode against Per Jonsson and Tony Rickardsson for the significant part of his career, who were absolutely amongst the best riders of all time. Ermolenko, Knudsen, Pedersen and even Tatum were also not rubbish either, although I'd not quite put them in the same league. What a bunch of sour grapes. Muller was far and away the best rider on the day, which is what counted in a World Final. He fully deserved the title. All the best Rob People also forget the pressure Muller had to contend with being a homer, he was mentally tough and won the meeting on merit.Also on the same point the legend Freddie Williams should never be forgotten i know his two titles were at Wembley but he handled the occasion superbly. Edited December 17, 2015 by sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reviresco Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 Sanders was a few years older than Nielsen, and had not won a World title by the time of his death. World Team Champion 1976. Not sure what not having won an Individual World Title already has to do with it. By the time of Billy's death, both Nielsen and Sanders had qualified for five Individual World Finals. Sanders had finished on the rostrum twice and Nielsen once. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 Lee in 83 had his best season( mainly the last three months since 1979 ) so he was hardly on the wain as you said his mistakes cost him his career with a big HELP from Eglese,Ebden and Bracher.Also before Billy's death he had had his best two years in speedway and was approaching his peak. I think Lee was a great speedway talent, and I enjoyed reading his book where he comes over as articulate and thoughtful as well. However, you only have to look at the trouble he seems to get himself into, and it can't all be down to happenstance and speedway officialdom. Great champions can't just have talent, but also need discipline, the right lifestyle, and positive influences around them. Whilst I do smile at sportsmen who still win things despite doing all the wrong things (e.g. James Hunt), they invariably don't go onto become multiple champions. Unlike many of the riders we've discussed, Lee's decline was largely self-inflicted and sadly I think the judgement must be that he wasted his talent. And of course, when he did make a come-back, he no longer looked like a world beater despite being a similar age to Nielsen and Ermolenko who both went on to win further world titles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 I think Lee was a great speedway talent, and I enjoyed reading his book where he comes over as articulate and thoughtful as well. However, you only have to look at the trouble he seems to get himself into, and it can't all be down to happenstance and speedway officialdom.Great champions can't just have talent, but also need discipline, the right lifestyle, and positive influences around them. Whilst I do smile at sportsmen who still win things despite doing all the wrong things (e.g. James Hunt), they invariably don't go onto become multiple champions.Unlike many of the riders we've discussed, Lee's decline was largely self-inflicted and sadly I think the judgement must be that he wasted his talent. And of course, when he did make a come-back, he no longer looked like a world beater despite being a similar age to Nielsen and Ermolenko who both went on to win further world titles.That incident at King's Lynn cost Mike his career a disgrace really, he was cleared yet he was stopped from riding in the British Final on the same day.The comebacks forget those the day they did not let him ride in the British Final was the end.Ermolenko no disrespect to him he was not in the same league as Lee ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 World Team Champion 1976. John Jorgensen was a multiple World Team Champion by virtue of being in victorious Danish teams, but I'm afraid few outside of Coventry would put him on any list of great riders. Team events can't really be used in judgement of a rider's standing. Not sure what not having won an Individual World Title already has to do with it. Billy Sanders didn't even qualify for three of the World Finals that Nielsen was in, so I'm not sure how he was stopping Nielsen from winning it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 That incident at King's Lynn cost Mike his career a disgrace really, he was cleared yet he was stopped from riding in the British Final on the same day.The comebacks forget those the day they did not let him ride in the British Final was the end.Ermolenko no disrespect to him he was not in the same league as Lee ever. Ermolenko was totally in the same league as Lee. Joint 1st in a World Final when not even racing in Europe.. Takes some doing. And Ermolenko in 1993 put together a better season than Lee ever did. Not only that, he did so after suffering horrific injuries from which it is very rare any rider comes back to perform at such a level. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reviresco Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 John Jorgensen was a multiple World Team Champion by virtue of being in victorious Danish teams, but I'm afraid few outside of Coventry would put him on any list of great riders. Team events can't really be used in judgement of a rider's standing. Billy Sanders didn't even qualify for three of the World Finals that Nielsen was in, so I'm not sure how he was stopping Nielsen from winning it. I wasn't saying that Team Championships can be used to determine a riders standing, just pointing out that you were incorrect in saying that Sanders had not won a World Title by the time of his death. Also, where was I suggesting that Sanders had stopped Nielsen winning an Individual Title? Not sure how you have read that into my post? You said that Sanders hadn't won an Individual Title by the time of his death. No rider has until they have won their first. I just don't understand how having not won one already, would stop a rider winning one in the future... Both Sanders and Nielsen had both qualified for five Individual Finals before Bill died and neither had won one by then - Sanders finishing on the rostrum twice and Nielsen once. Also, I think you will find that it was two and not three Individual Finals that Sanders didn't qualify for that Nielsen was in - 1981 and 82. They both qualified in 1980, 83 and 84. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 Ermolenko was totally in the same league as Lee. Joint 1st in a World Final when not even racing in Europe.. Takes some doing. And Ermolenko in 1993 put together a better season than Lee ever did. Not only that, he did so after suffering horrific injuries from which it is very rare any rider comes back to perform at such a level. Do you think he was ever a better rider than Lee? he had a good year in a average year standard wise in the BL not in the same league mate.He won a title fair/play but for me he was behind Penhall,Autrey,Sigalos,S.Moran in the USA pecking order Ermolenko or Lee laughable.!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) Do you think he was ever a better rider than Lee? he had a good year in a average year standard wise in the BL not in the same league mate.He won a title fair/play but for me he was behind Penhall,Autrey,Sigalos,S.Moran in the USA pecking order Ermolenko or Lee laughable.!! In 1993 Ermolenko was better than Lee ever was. Period. 11+ average in the nominated rider era. Only ever been done 3 times I believe. He also averaged 10.74 in 1991. Both higher than Lee ever managed in an easier format. This isn't an attack on Lee, he was a brilliant rider, but folk forget just how good Ermolenko was in the 91-93 period, particularly 93. As for your other riders.. behind Penhall yes, the others no chance. Edited December 17, 2015 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) In 1993 Ermolenko was better than Lee ever was. Period. 11+ average in the nominated rider era. Only ever been done 3 times I believe. He also averaged 10.74 in 1991. Both higher than Lee ever managed in an easier format. This isn't an attack on Lee, he was a brilliant rider, but folk forget just how good Ermolenko was in the 91-93 period, particularly 93. You are deluded 93 hardly a vintage era and after this reply i will not reply to you anymore on the subject, i know the best version of Lee would beat Ermolenko all day long Lee also rode in a far tougher era for me 75/83. Edited December 17, 2015 by sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) You are deluded 93 hardly a vintage era and after this reply i will reply to you anymore on the subject, i know the best version of Lee would beat Ermolenko all day long Lee also rode in a far tougher era for me 75/83. Bless. How did Lee do in the easy era of 1991? Ah yes.. 3.48. Impressive Whereas Ermolenko even in his 50's could beat riders such as Janowski and Darcy Ward. Lee at his best was damn good. Ermolenko at his best was damn good. To say one is much better than the other is madness. Edited December 17, 2015 by BWitcher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 The comebacks forget those the day they did not let him ride in the British Final was the end. Havelock also had his brush with authority and got banned for a year. Difference was that he came back better, kept his nose clean, and was probably a deserving winner in 1992. Ermolenko no disrespect to him he was not in the same league as Lee ever. Few riders ever had the ability of Lee, but it's what you make of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 Havelock also had his brush with authority and got banned for a year. Difference was that he came back better, kept his nose clean, and was probably a deserving winner in 1992. Few riders ever had the ability of Lee, but it's what you make of it. A good way of putting it Humphrey. :rofl: :rofl: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 Bless. How did Lee do in the easy era of 1991? Ah yes.. 3.48. Impressive Whereas Ermolenko even in his 50's could beat riders such as Janowski and Darcy Ward. Lee at his best was damn good. Ermolenko at his best was damn good. To say one is much better than the other is madness. To be honest Witcher can't be bothered you always WIN but it would not be so bad if you knew what you were on about 1991 please!! ASK SAM himself he knows how good Lee was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 To be honest Witcher can't be bothered you always WIN but it would not be so bad if you knew what you were on about 1991 please!! ASK SAM himself he knows how good Lee was. I haven't at any stage said Lee wasn't very good at his peak. You are the one making the sweeping claims, not me. Overall he may have an edge over Ermolenko, but you claimed Ermolenko was 'never in his league'. The period of 91-93 he most certainly was. What do you mean 1991 please? Did Lee ride or not ride in 1991? The answer is, yes he did.. he was pants. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) I haven't at any stage said Lee wasn't very good at his peak. You are the one making the sweeping claims, not me. Overall he may have an edge over Ermolenko, but you claimed Ermolenko was 'never in his league'. The period of 91-93 he most certainly was. What do you mean 1991 please? Did Lee ride or not ride in 1991? The answer is, yes he did.. he was pants. A sixteen year gap from 1975 his career had finished along time before that a cheap shot you are clutching at straws to be honest.I can remember Ermolenko coming over here in 83 think he was partnered with Lee a total nutcase totally out of control i think he averaged 4.25.He was lucky to get a work permit the next year look i like Sam he did well won a title fair play to him but he did not do it in a strong era. Edited December 17, 2015 by sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 A sixteen year gap from 1975 his career had finished along time before that a cheap shot you are clutching at straws to be honest.I can remember Ermolenko coming over here in 83 think he was partnered with Lee a total nutcase totally out of control i think he averaged 4.25.He was lucky to get a work permit the next year look i like Sam he did well won a title fair play to him but he did not do it in a strong era. Getting back to the topic,i was there in 1977 when Bruce came over to White City.He was pants.Only beat Keith White and fellow American Mike Bast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 Getting back to the topic,i was there in 1977 when Bruce came over to White City.He was pants.Only beat Keith White and fellow American Mike BastBast of course is one of the top 20 riders of all time, and in 77 was still close to his peak.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 A sixteen year gap from 1975 his career had finished along time before that a cheap shot you are clutching at straws to be honest.I can remember Ermolenko coming over here in 83 think he was partnered with Lee a total nutcase totally out of control i think he averaged 4.25.He was lucky to get a work permit the next year look i like Sam he did well won a title fair play to him but he did not do it in a strong era. Yet within 2 years, and only 1 season of racing in Europe he was in a run off for the World Title in 1985.. Thanks for proving my point of how good he was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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