Bruce Penhall

[lucifer sam]

 

Eddie Jancarz definitely split the Danes. I think it was Olsen raising his arm as he crossed the line that influenced the referee's decision.

 

Yes, plus Olsen grabbing Nielsen by the hand at the beginning of the slow-down lap, and the crowd then celebrating.

 

Kittilsen was conned by Ole on that occasion.

 

All the best

Rob

[Guest]

What rot you talk. Muller was a class act. In the 81 World Final to name one meeting, he scored 9 points in a very competitive field on a track hardly suited to his style, In addition, in an albeit short spell with Hull in 1976 he averaged 8.75. There were many riders who "some" would regard as more deserving of a place in a final who got nowhere near that at any time. Muller was not handed the title on a plate - there were some good riders in the world then (many more than now) & he whipped them all as if it were men against boys. Own back yard or not, he was still a very worthy champion.

 

As for Szczakiel, check out the 1971 World Pairs Final - unbeaten, Look at the riders he beat. In addition, you should perhaps be aware of Ivan Mauger's opinion of him. Even Ivan who must have been gutted, said he was a worthy champion & with the greatest of respect, I would take his opinion over yours any day of the week.

 

In addition your argument holds no water. You state the old system was unfair, the new one not. If the argument is that riders who should not have been there were, thus devaluing the meeting, I would say three things. First, I went to many "one off" world finals & have been to many GP's too. The atmosphere at World Finals was generally second to none & the anticipation leading up to the meeting, knowing that you would see the champion crowned that night couldn't be beaten. In addition, part of the interest then was seeing some big names fall by the wayside in the qualifiers, or knowing one incident could change the context of the meeting.

 

Second, if the old system was so unfair because here were "no hopers" in the field, what do you call most (that's most) of the wild card riders today? What is the difference between them & the likes of Muller or Szczakiel being nominated by their home federation? Answer: none.

 

The reality is, bot the old & new system have their flaws & benefits, not everyone will be happy, however, your particular argument is flawed, because in some ways the same thing exists now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Szczakiel

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mauger

 

The Ivan Mauger - Jerzy Szczakiiel race record over 13 clashes:

Mauger had seven wins Szczakiel had six wins.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Guest

[stratton]

Carter would still have had to have beaten Penhall as Peter Collins was leading the race.

Why would Penhall show any remorse? He'd just won the world championship, he wasn't going to care how Carter was feeling.

(I assume you're talking about the world final and not the overseas final!)

 

 

 

Eddie Jancarz definitely split the Danes. I think it was Olsen raising his arm as he crossed the line that influenced the referee's decision.

But thirteen points as Carter had six i think coming up to the Penhall race might have been anough for a run/off or second place? there certainly would of been more pressure on Penhall in his last race.What i am saying is PENHALL was always going to get a homers verdict i am sure Carter knew there race would be tough one and he was very unlucky in my book.Was Penhall lucky i think so, he did annoy me when he left speedway but that was his right to do so but i still say in 82 he was a lucky champion similar to when Hans brought Knudsen off.!!!

[lucifer sam]

he was a lucky champion similar to when Hans brought Knudsen off.!!!

 

Now you're talking nonsense, young Sidney.

 

Definite contact in 1986, but it came about because the already passed Knudsen cut back in. There's a camera angle from the Danish TV coverage which shows just how much Knudsen cut back across the track. An attempt to bolt the stable door after the horse had already bolted, with the inevitable consequences.

 

Nielsen's exclusion in the 1993 final was correct, because he drifted across the track and hit Ermolenko. In '86, Hans kept it tight, only for TK to cut back in.

 

All the best

Rob

[Terry]

But thirteen points as Carter had six i think coming up to the Penhall race might have been anough for a run/off or second place? there certainly would of been more pressure on Penhall in his last race.What i am saying is PENHALL was always going to get a homers verdict i am sure Carter knew there race would be tough one and he was very unlucky in my book.Was Penhall lucky i think so, he did annoy me when he left speedway but that was his right to do so but i still say in 82 he was a lucky champion similar to when Hans brought Knudsen off.!!!

 

If Carter had come third, it would've been some race between him and Les Collins to meet Penhall in a run-off.

It was a shame that Bruce retired so early. I watched some of those CHiPs episodes he was in, and he didn't even play a lead character!

True enough regarding Hans steaming under Tommy. He wasn't so lucky when he did it to Sam 7 years later though!

[Gavan]

Quite blatant that Nielsen knocked off Knudsen and Ermolenko.

 

Hans could get like that when he got desperate.

 

I remember a gp (and its on the Loramski the legend dvd) where they were scrapping for a point and Nielsen just kept delibertaly blocking Loram and almost knocked him off twice. Mark passed him on the last lap and going over the line turned his head and gave him a long stare and lets be fair thats the only time ive seen Mark rattled by dirty riding on the track.

 

Regards Muller. He was a good rider but lets be fair would never have been a world champion in 1983 or any other year if the final hadnt been held in Germany and the fact it was suspected to be an engine slightly over 500cc lol

[BWitcher]

 

 

Nielsen's exclusion in the 1993 final was correct, because he drifted across the track and hit Ermolenko. In '86, Hans kept it tight, only for TK to cut back in.

 

All the best

Rob

 

That's a very honest assessment Rob, most Nielsen fans I know swear blind he shouldn't have been excluded.

[Guest]

 

Regards Muller. He was a good rider but lets be fair would never have been a world champion in 1983 or any other year if the final hadnt been held in Germany and the fact it was suspected to be an engine slightly over 500cc lol

 

I have ever heard this allegation about Egon Muller before. But out of interest, just what difference is needed to put an engine 'obersize' for it to make any real difference? Anyway aren't the engines of riders taking main places at world finals checked immediately after the race?

Basically, I think this matter is put forward because nobody wants to accept that Muller won the world championship and there's continued recourse to find ways to discredit what was a simply brilliant performance by the German ace?

[iris123]

To be honest I have heard a rumour from within Germany,from an "insider"(who wasn't there and probably because of the Berlin Wall never saw Egon much, if at all,)that Egon did cheat that day in Norden.It wasn't though anything to do with his engine being bigger or smaller or whatever.It was something to do with his exhaust.Who knows.I kinda think that most people cheated or would have with the know-how and confidence or determination.Look around at the sporting world and even people wh I thought would be above cheating like Beckenbauer are now being accused or dirty dealings.Nothing surprises me any more

[The White Knight]

What rot you talk. Muller was a class act. In the 81 World Final to name one meeting, he scored 9 points in a very competitive field on a track hardly suited to his style, In addition, in an albeit short spell with Hull in 1976 he averaged 8.75. There were many riders who "some" would regard as more deserving of a place in a final who got nowhere near that at any time. Muller was not handed the title on a plate - there were some good riders in the world then (many more than now) & he whipped them all as if it were men against boys. Own back yard or not, he was still a very worthy champion.

 

As for Szczakiel, check out the 1971 World Pairs Final - unbeaten, Look at the riders he beat. In addition, you should perhaps be aware of Ivan Mauger's opinion of him. Even Ivan who must have been gutted, said he was a worthy champion & with the greatest of respect, I would take his opinion over yours any day of the week.

 

In addition your argument holds no water. You state the old system was unfair, the new one not. If the argument is that riders who should not have been there were, thus devaluing the meeting, I would say three things. First, I went to many "one off" world finals & have been to many GP's too. The atmosphere at World Finals was generally second to none & the anticipation leading up to the meeting, knowing that you would see the champion crowned that night couldn't be beaten. In addition, part of the interest then was seeing some big names fall by the wayside in the qualifiers, or knowing one incident could change the context of the meeting.

 

Second, if the old system was so unfair because here were "no hopers" in the field, what do you call most (that's most) of the wild card riders today? What is the difference between them & the likes of Muller or Szczakiel being nominated by their home federation? Answer: none.

 

The reality is, bot the old & new system have their flaws & benefits, not everyone will be happy, however, your particular argument is flawed, because in some ways the same thing exists now.

You beat me to it Dave. I was going to mention those two facts also.

 

For me Jerzy Szczakiel was a very good but very inconsistant Rider. He deserved to win in 1973.

 

On the night - Mauger couldn't beat him - he probably would have nine times out of ten but the fact is - he didn't.

 

Jerzy ended up with two World Titles and I do not begrudge him either of them. I think much of the criticism of him is rather unfair.

 

Well done Jerzy is all I can say.

 

 

 

After all these years i have often thought if only Ivan could of said to Kenny maybe if you have to settle for second place don't overide?Who knows he might of been in a run/off for the title,things could of been so much differenct for me Penhall was so lucky that night.What needled me though that he showed no real sorriness after, just smugness he went down alot in my estimation that night a great rider no doubt but i would take Scott Autrey as a favourite over him all day long.

Scott Autrey was my favourite Anerican Rider too sidney.

[stratton]

Quite blatant that Nielsen knocked off Knudsen and Ermolenko.

 

Hans could get like that when he got desperate.

 

I remember a gp (and its on the Loramski the legend dvd) where they were scrapping for a point and Nielsen just kept delibertaly blocking Loram and almost knocked him off twice. Mark passed him on the last lap and going over the line turned his head and gave him a long stare and lets be fair thats the only time ive seen Mark rattled by dirty riding on the track.

 

Regards Muller. He was a good rider but lets be fair would never have been a world champion in 1983 or any other year if the final hadnt been held in Germany and the fact it was suspected to be an engine slightly over 500cc lol

Would Freddie Williams ever have been a champion? or Jerzy but the biggest thing for those two they handled the pressure great being a homer is a real pressure.Others over the years my hero failed badly (Lee i know he hated the Wembley track but being a local really adds to the pressure.

[iris123]

Would Freddie Williams ever have been a champion? or Jerzy but the biggest thing for those two they handled the pressure great being a homer is a real pressure.Others over the years my hero failed badly (Lee i know he hated the Wembley track but being a local really adds to the pressure.

Lee wasn't a local sid,he was a country bumpkin who lived miles away from London

[lucifer sam]

 

That's a very honest assessment Rob, most Nielsen fans I know swear blind he shouldn't have been excluded.

 

I like to be fair.

 

And Sam was exceedingly lucky in the re-run, to say the least.

 

But in 1986, the ref got it spot on. What's hilarious about that one is that some try to prove Hans was at fault, by posting the worst video footage-ever posted from somewhere across the other side of the track, around 100m away. When there's far better Danish TV coverage, shot from almost head on, which shows Hans sticking to the inside and TK cutting back across. Knudsen to blame for his own fall.

 

All the best

Rob

[stratton]

Lee wasn't a local sid,he was a country bumpkin who lived miles away from London

Please Iris don't be a p. please he was the defending champion in 1980 was he not? he struggled and it was a tough season please Iris give a decent response or don't bother how far is Cambidgeshire away from Wembley.??

[Gavan]

 

I like to be fair.

 

And Sam was exceedingly lucky in the re-run, to say the least.

 

But in 1986, the ref got it spot on. What's hilarious about that one is that some try to prove Hans was at fault, by posting the worst video footage-ever posted from somewhere across the other side of the track, around 100m away. When there's far better Danish TV coverage, shot from almost head on, which shows Hans sticking to the inside and TK cutting back across. Knudsen to blame for his own fall.

 

All the best

Rob

although i think Nielsen was at fault in 1986 im with you regarding Ermolenko in the re run when quite clearly he packed up before the race was halted and shoulf have been excluded. 3 points in that race for Andy Smith would have put him in the title picture so no wonder he showered him in shale at the end of the race.

 

Then with the title won Sam proceeded to miss the gate by a mile in his last heat and poodle round at the back showboating a la Penhall.

The only difference was it didnt really matter

[The White Knight]

Please Iris don't be a p. please he was the defending champion in 1980 was he not? he struggled and it was a tough season please Iris give a decent response or don't bother how far is Cambidgeshire away from Wembley.??

I agree again sidney. I don't know what has happened to iris123 these days.

[stratton]

I like to be fair.

 

And Sam was exceedingly lucky in the re-run, to say the least.

 

But in 1986, the ref got it spot on. What's hilarious about that one is that some try to prove Hans was at fault, by posting the worst video footage-ever posted from somewhere across the other side of the track, around 100m away. When there's far better Danish TV coverage, shot from almost head on, which shows Hans sticking to the inside and TK cutting back across. Knudsen to blame for his own fall.

 

All the best

Rob

In denial Rob in 86 Nielsen should of been out that year, he was very lucky other years he was not so fair anough.Knudsen at his best like Erik beat Hans regular looking over the facts and figures Lee,Carter,Sigalos,Erik, Knudsen all had great head to head records with Nielsen.

I agree again sidney. I don't know what has happened to iris123 these days.

I don't know he does not react the way i can remember him not to worry maybe i am over exaragating.

[iris123]

Please Iris don't be a p. please he was the defending champion in 1980 was he not? he struggled and it was a tough season please Iris give a decent response or don't bother how far is Cambidgeshire away from Wembley.??

People tend to forget how long it used to take to travel around from some parts of the country.The world is a whole lot smaller now than back then.And people tend to forget how long it used to take the likes of Fundin or Briggo to travel to and from meetings and not in the comfort todays riders have in their big mobile homes......

[stratton]

People tend to forget how long it used to take to travel around from some parts of the country.The world is a whole lot smaller now than back then.And people tend to forget how long it used to take the likes of Fundin or Briggo to travel to and from meetings and not in the comfort todays riders have in their big mobile homes......

Of course but being a defending champion Lee and others i think what a pressure that is, thats why Mullers win was great ok he was not a defending champ but he had loads of pressure and soaked it up and he produced it on the day. Edited December 16, 2015 by sidney

[Humphrey Appleby]

Knudsen all had great head to head records with Nielsen.

 

Knudsen always gave the appearance of being in the Nielsen-Gundersen echelon, but was really never there. Gundersen despite an inferior league record against Nielsen, always seemed to be able to pull something special out of the bag in World Finals. Knudsen was the sort of opposite.

 

From memory, Knudsen was one of the few riders who could actually beat Nielsen in league racing on any sort of regular basis, but seemed to be the Leigh Adams of the 1980s.