Bruce Penhall

[Dave the Mic]

Because unfair rules allowed them to .

What rot you talk. Muller was a class act. In the 81 World Final to name one meeting, he scored 9 points in a very competitive field on a track hardly suited to his style, In addition, in an albeit short spell with Hull in 1976 he averaged 8.75. There were many riders who "some" would regard as more deserving of a place in a final who got nowhere near that at any time. Muller was not handed the title on a plate - there were some good riders in the world then (many more than now) & he whipped them all as if it were men against boys. Own back yard or not, he was still a very worthy champion.

 

As for Szczakiel, check out the 1971 World Pairs Final - unbeaten, Look at the riders he beat. In addition, you should perhaps be aware of Ivan Mauger's opinion of him. Even Ivan who must have been gutted, said he was a worthy champion & with the greatest of respect, I would take his opinion over yours any day of the week.

 

In addition your argument holds no water. You state the old system was unfair, the new one not. If the argument is that riders who should not have been there were, thus devaluing the meeting, I would say three things. First, I went to many "one off" world finals & have been to many GP's too. The atmosphere at World Finals was generally second to none & the anticipation leading up to the meeting, knowing that you would see the champion crowned that night couldn't be beaten. In addition, part of the interest then was seeing some big names fall by the wayside in the qualifiers, or knowing one incident could change the context of the meeting.

 

Second, if the old system was so unfair because here were "no hopers" in the field, what do you call most (that's most) of the wild card riders today? What is the difference between them & the likes of Muller or Szczakiel being nominated by their home federation? Answer: none.

 

The reality is, bot the old & new system have their flaws & benefits, not everyone will be happy, however, your particular argument is flawed, because in some ways the same thing exists now.

[Grand Central]

I know threads often go off at various tangents on the BSF.

But must say how genuinely surprised I am that a thread about the supposedly charismatic Penhall has has so little to say about the guy himself.

 

Apart from the 'White City incident' there is little light or shade.

We would prefer to chat about other riders of his era, and sidelining old Brucey.

Even LA82 is really a lot more about KC than BP.

 

I suppose that once you have said.

He was Good. And. He was nice.

 

That's about it?

Edited December 16, 2015 by Grand Central

[stratton]

MULLER was possibly the greatest longtrack rider of his or any generation. Never really took speedway seriously other than at Norden in his home country for obvious reasons. It was a strong field at Norden and no one handed him the title, he had to win it and did so. It was no fluke.

Who with Weisbock, Gilgenreiner? what do you think.

[Grachan]

As Carter falls off, he does brush against Penhall. But that's as he's already coming off.

 

The previous contact is well, well before that. And the next contact is when an already falling Carter brushes into Penhall's back wheel. In no way does that cause Carter to call - he's already on his way down. As Briggo correctly calls (and he knows far more about speedway than either of us), Carter made a big error in giving Penhall the room on the inside. He tries to correct the situation too late, refuses to shut off, runs out of room and comes down, brushing into Penhall's back wheel on the way down.

 

There is no contact from Penhall that causes Carter to fall. The mistake is Carter's.

 

Barry Briggs: "(Carter) clips the back of Penhall's machine".

 

All the best

Rob

Yes there is. Keep watching. You'll see it one day.

 

It is, of course, possible that Carter ran out of track and had to move inwards, but it is when Penhall's back wheel flicks out that they touch.

 

Admittedly it is just my opinion that it was Penhall's fault. But it is a fact that there was contact between Brucie's back wheel and Carter's handlebar and that's when Carter fell.

 

 

https://youtu.be/nuF9BWpEDXo?t=57m10s

 

If he didn't touch him, what DOES he mean when he says "I felt a little bit and it was him.."

Exactly.

 

Great bit of controversy anyway.

Edited December 16, 2015 by grachan

[stratton]

What rot you talk. Muller was a class act. In the 81 World Final to name one meeting, he scored 9 points in a very competitive field on a track hardly suited to his style, In addition, in an albeit short spell with Hull in 1976 he averaged 8.75. There were many riders who "some" would regard as more deserving of a place in a final who got nowhere near that at any time. Muller was not handed the title on a plate - there were some good riders in the world then (many more than now) & he whipped them all as if it were men against boys. Own back yard or not, he was still a very worthy champion.

 

As for Szczakiel, check out the 1971 World Pairs Final - unbeaten, Look at the riders he beat. In addition, you should perhaps be aware of Ivan Mauger's opinion of him. Even Ivan who must have been gutted, said he was a worthy champion & with the greatest of respect, I would take his opinion over yours any day of the week.

 

In addition your argument holds no water. You state the old system was unfair, the new one not. If the argument is that riders who should not have been there were, thus devaluing the meeting, I would say three things. First, I went to many "one off" world finals & have been to many GP's too. The atmosphere at World Finals was generally second to none & the anticipation leading up to the meeting, knowing that you would see the champion crowned that night couldn't be beaten. In addition, part of the interest then was seeing some big names fall by the wayside in the qualifiers, or knowing one incident could change the context of the meeting.

 

Second, if the old system was so unfair because here were "no hopers" in the field, what do you call most (that's most) of the wild card riders today? What is the difference between them & the likes of Muller or Szczakiel being nominated by their home federation? Answer: none.

 

The reality is, bot the old & new system have their flaws & benefits, not everyone will be happy, however, your particular argument is flawed, because in some ways the same thing exists now.

A great post and all of us oldies can relate to this,came home from Norden really gutted because i really believed Lee had a great chance but you know what the whole field was blown away by Egon that day.And sometimes you have to say hands up what a great performance, the old one day finals did have major flaws but i believe now it is even more unfair.Some people on here have short memories, they were moaning like crazy when Tai as a 500/1 shot was aloud back in the series.Thank god he was eh! he grasped the chance and what a fine CHAMPION he is but it shows just the odd break in life helps.I believe this GP series is still a bit of a closed shop certainly needs looking at,at the moment for me it is not far wrong line up wise apart from Emil,Dudek,Vaculik.?

[lucifer sam]

Yes there is. Keep watching. You'll see it one day.

 

It is, of course, possible that Carter ran out of track and had to move inwards, but it is when Penhall's back wheel flicks out that they touch.

 

For me it is just my opinion that it was Penhall's fault, because of that. But it is a fact that there was contact between Brucie's back wheel and Carter's handlebar.

 

 

If you're talking about the same bit of contact that I am (I assume so), then it happens when Carter has already charged into no man's land, instead of cutting back in.

 

I think he's already on his way down at that point, even before he brushes Penhall's back wheel with his front wheel. He hits Penhall, rather than the other way around. Although 'hit' is hardly the word - they brush. Not that I think that causes Carter to fall; he's already put himself in the wrong place, and is on the way down. Penhall is a whole bike length in front at this point.

 

Listen to Briggo's comments on the various replays. I don't think Briggo was in either camp, he'd call it the way he sees it anyway (Briggo was always very honest), and he know far more about speedway than either of us. He's of the opinion that Kenny Carter made a big mistake.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited December 16, 2015 by lucifer sam

[Grand Central]

As someone born and raised within an HX postcode it is not possible to say that I am in anyway non partisan in my feelings on any Carter-Penhall discussion.

 

But one thing I decided many moons ago was to temper my Heat 14 angst and to stop my constant adolescent questioning of Mr Kittelsen's parentage.

 

My feelings are a lot different today than when listening to the Live radio coverage on Pennine Radio, under the covers in the the middle of the night. Crying myself to sleep as Tony Delahunty told us the worst.

 

That race, and particularly that fateful lap, was unarmed combat. Man-on-Man . Elbows, legs, feet were all in play. On both sides.

BP was the 'last man standing'.

So he won.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Grand Central

[Grachan]

If you're talking about the same bit of contact that I am (I assume so), then it happens when Carter has already charged into no man's land, instead of cutting back in.

 

I think he's already on his way down at that point, even before he brushes Penhall's back wheel. He hits Penhall, rather than the other way around. Although 'hit' is hardly the word - they brush. Not that I think that causes Carter to fall; he's already put himself in the wrong place, and is on the way down.

 

Listen to Briggo's comments on the various replays. I don't think Briggo was in either camp, he'd call it the way he sees it anyway (Briggo was always very honest), and he know far more about speedway than either of us. He's of the opinion that Kenny Carter made a big mistake.

 

All the best

Rob

Quite possibly, although I feel Penhall's flick out of the wheel was an unnatural movement so I still go with Penhall being the one to be excluded.

 

This thing is, you earlier said there was no contact, which was what I was mainly disagreeing with.

[lucifer sam]

 

Quite possibly, although I feel Penhall's flick out of the wheel was an unnatural movement so I still go with Penhall being the one to be excluded.

 

This thing is, you earlier said there was no contact, which was what I was mainly disagreeing with.

 

I’m saying there’s no contact at that point that Kenny Carter says there is contact

 

Watch the slow motion replay as Carter watches it. He says there is contact halfway around the second bend. There isn’t. It’s Carter imagination that there is contact at this point.

 

But there is contact less a second later, on the exit of the bend, as Carter is already coming down. I think his front wheel brushes against Penhall’s back wheel.

 

The referee was never going to exclude Penhall for that. It’s Carter’s decision to stay out there, rather than cut back. Just listen to Briggo – he doesn’t see it remotely as 50/50. What surprises me is that it’s still debated more than 33 years later, when I think there’s only one decision that could have been made. It makes me glad that we had an experienced referee who was handling his seventh or eighth World Final or something like that.

 

The main blot on Tore Kittilsen's record was the 1979 World Paris Final... not the 1982 World Final.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited December 16, 2015 by lucifer sam

[nw42]

As someone born and raised within an HX postcode it is not possible to say that I am in anyway non partisan in my feelings on any Carter-Penhall discussion.

 

But one thing I decided many moons ago was to temper my Heat 14 angst and to stop my constant adolescent questioning of Mr Kittelsen's parentage.

 

My feelings are a lot different today than when listening to the Live radio coverage on Pennine Radio, under the covers in the the middle of the night. Crying myself to sleep as Tony Delahunty told us the worst.

 

That race, and particularly that fateful lap, was unarmed combat. Man-on-Man . Elbows, legs, feet were all in play. On both sides.

BP was the 'last man standing'.

So he won.

 

That pretty much sums it up, something had to give, once the contact was made as they exited the 4th turn there was a certain inevitability that one or the other would end up on the deck.

 

Just think, if things had turned out different the discussion could have been whether or not Les Collins should be lumped together with Jerzy & Egon as 'unworthy' champions.

 

There are flaws in both the old and the GP systems, I don't have a preference either way, I just like to see decent racing whatever the format.

[Dave the Mic]

I fyou

 

if you knew about speedway then would understand that Muller would not have made the final if he had gone in with the best riders in say the overseas final etc ...the fact that Won in Norden does not change that ..Muller was never a class act when he rode in the uk .

You have no idea at all. Do you actually watch speedway?

[Grachan]

I’m saying there’s no contact at that point that Kenny Carter says there is contact

Well obviously not. Because Carter said he took his leg straight from under him, which he didn't.

 

Keep watching Rob. It's the handlebar, not the front wheel.

[SCB]

That race, and particularly that fateful lap, was unarmed combat. Man-on-Man . Elbows, legs, feet were all in play. On both sides.

BP was the 'last man standing'.

So he won.

That it for me. The two of them were bumping and barging. So they had to accept that whoever went down was the loser.

[lucifer sam]

Well obviously not. Because Carter said he took his leg straight from under him, which he didn't.

 

Keep watching Rob. It's the handlebar, not the front wheel.

 

The contact I see is right at the end, on the exit of the turn and entry to the straight, when Carter’s front wheel brushes Penhall’s back wheel, as Carter is already on the way down.

 

Are you seeing the knock of the handlebar at the point that Carter says there is contact? (although, as you mention, Carter’s description is somewhat misleading to say the least!). I’ve replayed several times (it’s around halfway around the second bend ) and can’t see a thing that suggests contact at that point, even when watching Carter's handlebar.

 

It’s ironic, they bash into each other several times before that, the last being the entry to the first turn, but Carter comes off without any contact until he’s already on the way down. He really got himself into completely the wrong position.

 

All the best

Rob

[Halifaxtiger]

 

That race, and particularly that fateful lap, was unarmed combat. Man-on-Man . Elbows, legs, feet were all in play. On both sides.

BP was the 'last man standing'.

So he won.

 

I have no doubt that it was helped by the fact that the final was in the USA.....

 

If memory serves me correctly, Tony McDonald commented in Tragedy that it wasn't easy to find any rider who was prepared to say a good word about Kenny Carter - again if memory serves me correctly, Joe Owen and Dave Jessup were the only ones. On the other hand, only one was vitriolic in his remarks - and that was Bruce Penhall. Peter Collins, who loathed Carter and who he blamed for finishing his career, simply said they didn't get on. There's no reason why Penhall couldn't have said the same thing, yet he chose to be particularly aggressive.

 

If you read Tragedy, it is clear that Carter's actions in murdering his wife and then committing suicide were in no way planned or premeditated - he simply acted in the heat of the moment given the circumstances at the time.

 

That in no way excuses what he did and it remains as awful now as it was then. The only thing is to commit an act of extreme violence in temper is something that each and everyone of us is capable of.

[Dave the Mic]

I have to be honest, I am not too interested in who was at fault as you can't change it anyway, but how any of you can make a call based on any internet footage is a bit beyond me, as it is so grainy & poor. Or are you watching a clearer version?

[stratton]

After all these years i have often thought if only Ivan could of said to Kenny maybe if you have to settle for second place don't overide?Who knows he might of been in a run/off for the title,things could of been so much differenct for me Penhall was so lucky that night.What needled me though that he showed no real sorriness after, just smugness he went down alot in my estimation that night a great rider no doubt but i would take Scott Autrey as a favourite over him all day long.

Edited December 16, 2015 by sidney

[Grachan]

The contact I see is right at the end, on the exit of the turn and entry to the straight, when Carter’s front wheel brushes Penhall’s back wheel, as Carter is already on the way down.

 

Are you seeing the knock of the handlebar at the point that Carter says there is contact? (although, as you mention, Carter’s description is somewhat misleading to say the least!). I’ve replayed several times (it’s around halfway around the second bend ) and can’t see a thing that suggests contact at that point, even when watching Carter's handlebar.

 

It’s ironic, they bash into each other several times before that, the last being the entry to the first turn, but Carter comes off without any contact until he’s already on the way down. He really got himself into completely the wrong position.

 

All the best

Rob

What are you watching on? If you are watching on Youtube you're not going to see it.

 

I've no idea when Kenny Carter says there is contact, other than the "leg" thing, which is clearly wrong. As I've said, the contact with the handlebars is when Bruce's back wheel flips out. Whatever other factrs are taken into account, the thing that causes Carter to actually fall is Penhall's back wheel swiping his handlebars.

 

You will need good quality footage to see it, though. And the one on Youtube with American commentry cuts views at exactly the moment to make you miss it.

 

Keep watching, Rob.

 

 

If you read Tragedy, it is clear that Carter's actions in murdering his wife and then committing suicide were in no way planned or premeditated - he simply acted in the heat of the moment given the circumstances at the time.

 

That in no way excuses what he did and it remains as awful now as it was then. The only thing is to commit an act of extreme violence in temper is something that each and everyone of us is capable of.

On the contrary. I did read the book and there is an indication in there that it was, to some degree, pre-meditated.

[Paulsmith]

I want to bring back the one off world final . Who wants to join me in my crusade

[Terry]

After all these years i have often thought if only Ivan could of said to Kenny maybe if you have to settle for second place don't overide?Who knows he might of been in a run/off for the title,things could of been so much differenct for me Penhall was so lucky that night.What needled me though that he showed no real sorriness after, just smugness he went down alot in my estimation that night a great rider no doubt but i would take Scott Autrey as a favourite over him all day long.

 

Carter would still have had to have beaten Penhall as Peter Collins was leading the race.

Why would Penhall show any remorse? He'd just won the world championship, he wasn't going to care how Carter was feeling.

(I assume you're talking about the world final and not the overseas final!)

 

 

 

 

The main blot on Tore Kittilsen's record was the 1979 World Paris Final... not the 1982 World Final.

 

All the best

Rob

 

Eddie Jancarz definitely split the Danes. I think it was Olsen raising his arm as he crossed the line that influenced the referee's decision.