Gp Quali V Old Qualis

[iris123]

Looking at another thread yesterday it was said that Bengt Jansson was a 'great' rider in the same breath as Ove Fundin was a 'great' rider and that Bengt was unlucky to lose out in a run-off for the title on bad gate draw.On further looking I saw that Bengt qualified for 5 world finals and once as reserve.Now the breakdown was he qualified twice for a Wembley final and then 3 times plus once as reserve for finals held in Sweden.

 

Now this meant that only twice in his career did he qualify for a world final by riding in a meeting or two outside his home country.He was I must admit very consistent when he qualified for a final,but a Nordic title and London riders title and such doesn't really for me make a 'great' rider.

 

If we look at the past few British finals we can see the quality of rider who might have been a multiple world finalist if the previous system was still in place.And this for me makes it quite clear that the GP system is far superior

 

2015

Tai

C.Cook

D.King

J.Garrity

S.Nicholls

 

2014

Tai

C.Cook

B.Barker

C.Harris

J.Garrity

 

2013

Tai

S.Nicholls

C.Harris

C.Cook

E.Kennett

 

2012

S.Nicholls

C.Harris

Tai

E.Kennett

S.Stead

 

2011

S.Nicholls

C.Harris

Tai

E.Kennett

B.Barker

 

2010

C.Harris

S.Nicholls

B.Barker

D.King

E.Kennett

 

Ok the UK wouldn't have hosted consecutive finals,but the chances are that the likes of Ben Barker,Ed Kennett and Jason Garrity as well as Colin Cook could be multiple world finalists...... Tried quickly to look at the Swedish situation as a comparison and came up with a blank apart from seeing that Kim Nilsson or Daniel Nermark for instance might well have qualified through the Swedish final.I'd guess the Polish final and Danish final wouldn't have thrown up major surprise world finalists as they are quite strong line-ups

 

 

[The White Knight]

You do have to consider the quality of the overall opposition too.

 

Do that and I think you will find that the fields of Riders in Bengt Jansson/Ove Fundin era were far superior to today's Riders. Obviously the exception might be a very few GP Riders today.

[iris123]

Yes,i looked at the 1972 European final and he finished 14th behind the likes of

A.Pavlov,A.Kuzmin,V.Kalmykov,Jan Simensen and Milan Spinka

 

But that was only a tiny part of my post.How it would pan out nowadays was more the point

Edited December 11, 2015 by iris123

[The White Knight]

Yes,i looked at the 1972 European final and he finished 14th behind the likes of

A.Pavlov,A.Kuzmin,V.Kalmykov,Jan Simensen and Milan Spinka

 

But that was only a tiny part of my post.How it would pan out nowadays was more the point

That is a question neither you or I can answer.

 

Interesting Discussion point though.................

 

Incidentally, remove the List of Riders and your Post isn't that big.

[iris123]

That is a question neither you or I can answer.

 

Interesting Discussion point though.................

 

 

Actually I have answered it.In any given year with that old style qualification riders like Cook,Barker or Kennett would have been in the world final

 

 

Incidentally, remove the List of Riders and your Post isn't that big.

Oh yes of course,if I remove half of my post it wouldn't be half so big eh

[The White Knight]

Actually I have answered it.In any given year with that old style qualification riders like Cook,Barker or Kennett would have been in the world final

Oh yes of course,if I remove half of my post it wouldn't be half so big eh

Yes - but it was you who replied to my Post complaining that I only commented on a tiny part of your Post (thus alluding to size of Post) so I thought I would put it in perspective. See Quote below.

Yes,i looked at the 1972 European final and he finished 14th behind the likes of

A.Pavlov,A.Kuzmin,V.Kalmykov,Jan Simensen and Milan Spinka

 

But that was only a tiny part of my post.How it would pan out nowadays was more the point

[iris123]

Exactly.If you actually look at the post about a quarter of it is about Jansson and that just as a build up to the main part......but of course we could discuss what percentage of the post it needs to be before it can be called tiny,just as we can discuss how often someone needs to qualify outside his own country before they can be called 'great'........great

[The White Knight]

Exactly.If you actually look at the post about a quarter of it is about Jansson and that just as a build up to the main part......but of course we could discuss what percentage of the post it needs to be before it can be called tiny,just as we can discuss how often someone needs to qualify outside his own country before they can be called 'great'........great

This is supposed to be a Discussion Forum. Of course people are going to comment on the part of the Post they are interested and ignore the rest. I would imagine that is the case on most Post replies.

 

This is very boring so, instead of setting up a sensible Thread and then just being pedantic - why don't you just leave it to those who wish to discuss the Issue you raised and leave it at that.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[OveFundinFan]

Regarding that run off with Fundin and Bengt Jansson, the story goes that as the riders walked from the pits to the start (to toss for gates) Ove "talked" Jansson out of winning. That's why Ove was known as The Wily Fox.

Of course 1967 was the year riders were going over to Jawa/Eso which Fundin had been riding, but Fundin out foxed them by using a JAP engine in what I believe was a JAWA frame. He had the engine tuned to suit Wembley, telling his Belle Vue mechanic to "get the bike set up to get me to the first corner first". He beat Jansson in their heat and so again in the run off.

 

Having said that, Banger was a quality rider who, on his day, could beat anyone. His "day" unfortunately was not that world final, nor the other ones.

[iris123]

This is supposed to be a Discussion Forum. Of course people are going to comment on the part of the Post they are interested and ignore the rest. I would imagine that is the case on most Post replies.

 

This is very boring so, instead of setting up a sensible Thread and then just being pedantic - why don't you just leave it to those who wish to discuss the Issue you raised and leave it at that.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Only You could make a post which is complete nonsense and then try and take the moral high ground.Typical!!!!

[waiheke1]

You do have to consider the quality of the overall opposition too.

 

Do that and I think you will find that the fields of Riders in Bengt Jansson/Ove Fundin era were far superior to today's Riders. Obviously the exception might be a very few GP Riders today.

You really think the standard of riders was significantly higher in the 50s and 60s than today? On what basis?

[stratton]

You really think the standard of riders was significantly higher in the 50s and 60s than today? On what basis?

What do you think?

[arnieg]

I think it is worth observing that Sweden's World Final allocation was reduced over the years as their national standing declined (by 1984 just Jan Andersson got a place). Presumably the same thing would have happened to Britain, meaning only 2 or 3 home riders at a British staged final if we were still using the same model, not 4 or 5 as suggested in the original post.

[iris123]

I did qualify my statement by saying "might" not, would have

 

We could also argue that if the number of places had dropped then Jansson might not have qualified as often as he did back then and so on and might not be thought of as "great"

Edited December 12, 2015 by iris123

[Terry]

I think it is worth observing that Sweden's World Final allocation was reduced over the years as their national standing declined (by 1984 just Jan Andersson got a place). Presumably the same thing would have happened to Britain, meaning only 2 or 3 home riders at a British staged final if we were still using the same model, not 4 or 5 as suggested in the original post.

 

I don't think Britain were seeded a place at Bradford 85. Luckily Kelvin Tatum qualified.

[iris123]

Not worth considering that period.If just 1 spot was up for grabs in the 60s then Jansson would likely never got a spot with Fundin pretty sure of getting that

[waiheke1]

 

I don't think Britain were seeded a place at Bradford 85. Luckily Kelvin Tatum qualified.

I'm pretty sure that England were guaranteed one spot, as every other world final that era the host nayion was. It wasn't classed as seeded though, simply the top placed rider from that nation was guaranteed a spot *so in 84 Anderson just needed to finish ahead of Blixt in the inear continental final).

That was a different method to the one iris alludes to, which was used in the 70s and prior.

Not worth considering that period.If just 1 spot was up for grabs in the 60s then Jansson would likely never got a spot with Fundin pretty sure of getting that

If just one spot, surely more would have been available through the other qualifying rounds, as per 81 onwards? In which case he could well have qualified anyway. Edited December 12, 2015 by waihekeaces1

[iris123]

If just one spot, surely more would have been available through the other qualifying rounds, as per 81 onwards? In which case he could well have qualified anyway.

Coud be a point.But I would say those 3 Swedish world finals he wouldn't have made the spot as Fundin would have been favourite.Then as I mentioned before he failed to get through when a lot of relatively not so great East Europeans did.He also finished in other quali meetings behind the likes of Bob Valentine,John Boulger and Ray Wilson,who although decent riders were also not elite level.

Edited December 12, 2015 by iris123