steve roberts Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 Would be interested in fellow contributors views regarding Fixed Gates. Personally I was always against the idea (I know the argument was that the best riders generally took the best gate) I haven't been for many years (as I keep quoting) and I'm guessing that the heat formula is the same, but one team always got an early advantage because they had successive inside gates when the dirt (I'm assuming tracks still have dirt!) was still on the inside. When the dirt moved out that same team had a further advantage as they then had a succession of outside gates. Also, I felt, it restricted team-riding (remember that?) possibilities as the inside rider could often dictate the first bend as Hans Nielsen often was able to do, allowing his partner to sweep around the outside. I used to find the Fixed Gate option too sterile and limited tactical awareness. I've read recently that John Berry had the same views when quoting the Best Pairs formula (when he was England Manager) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 Would be interested in fellow contributors views regarding Fixed Gates. Personally I was always against the idea (I know the argument was that the best riders generally took the best gate) I haven't been for many years (as I keep quoting) and I'm guessing that the heat formula is the same, but one team always got an early advantage because they had successive inside gates when the dirt (I'm assuming tracks still have dirt!) was still on the inside. When the dirt moved out that same team had a further advantage as they then had a succession of outside gates. Also, I felt, it restricted team-riding (remember that?) possibilities as the inside rider could often dictate the first bend as Hans Nielsen often was able to do, allowing his partner to sweep around the outside. I used to find the Fixed Gate option too sterile and limited tactical awareness. I've read recently that John Berry had the same views when quoting the Best Pairs formula (when he was England Manager) I've just checked a programme from 2004 and a team had inside gates during heats 1, 3, 4 & 6 and the same team outside gates during heats 7, 8, 9 & 10. Much preferred alternate gates! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 A very interesting subject Steve, i have changed my mind over the years i was not in favour of fixed gates but now i am.I used to go to Reading every week from 1984 to 89 as i followed Malc Holloway when he was paired with Jan Andersson Jan used to mainly get the best gates they both liked the inside gates.That used to really annoy me,but it was the norm then with Olsen,Mauger,Briggo,Nielsen (ect) always getting the cream of the gates.Would those great riders Mauger(ect) have got those great inflated averages in today's format?. i have my doubts but the likes of those four named were generally great off any gate anyway.So i think the fixed gates are the way to go fairer for everybody what is your take on it Steve.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 A very interesting subject Steve, i have changed my mind over the years i was not in favour of fixed gates but now i am.I used to go to Reading every week from 1984 to 89 as i followed Malc Holloway when he was paired with Jan Andersson Jan used to mainly get the best gates they both liked the inside gates.That used to really annoy me,but it was the norm then with Olsen,Mauger,Briggo,Nielsen (ect) always getting the cream of the gates.Would those great riders Mauger(ect) have got those great inflated averages in today's format?. i have my doubts but the likes of those four named were generally great off any gate anyway.So i think the fixed gates are the way to go fairer for everybody what is your take on it Steve.? Fair comment. I preferred alternate gates as it allowed for greater flexibility and tactical awareness and I know that Nielsen often chose the inside gate but we saw some tremendous team-riding whereby he waited for his partner (Marvyn Cox and Jens Rasmussen come immediately to mind) to join him. Far more difficult to team-ride from the outside. For example I remember occasions that a strong pairing (under the fixed gate scenario) had gates 1 & 3 and the opposite team's 'star' man would be off 4 with a reserve on gate 2. It gave the strong team a distinct advantage (especially at Oxford where there was a short run to the first bend) as they could dominate the first bend (unless the outside rider achieved an immaculate gate enabling him to close them down) I would have preferred having my 'star' rider in between (gate 2) the riders so that he was in a better position to 'put himself about a bit' if you get my meaning! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 When I saw the thread title I thought it would be about the cash admissions policy.... one for me, one for the books, one for me, one for the books..... Wink!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar_art Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 Any way of increasing the tactical element of speedway is good in my book. This helps to create points of discussion on the terraces and to alleviate the wait between races. One of the reasons that the old T/S rule was so good, although I now think that would not be good at NL level. I also think that saying the highest averaged rider has to ride at number 1 is wrong as well. There should be more leeway for the team manager to move his forces around, make him/her work for his/her living. (This might have the added benefit, for the clubs if not for us fans, of selling more programs if you don't know the line up beforehand.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 prefer free choice of gates myself, anything that add a bit of tactics to a team manager a bonus imo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 Any way of increasing the tactical element of speedway is good in my book. This helps to create points of discussion on the terraces and to alleviate the wait between races. One of the reasons that the old T/S rule was so good, although I now think that would not be good at NL level. I also think that saying the highest averaged rider has to ride at number 1 is wrong as well. There should be more leeway for the team manager to move his forces around, make him/her work for his/her living. (This might have the added benefit, for the clubs if not for us fans, of selling more programs if you don't know the line up beforehand.) I agree. I remember when Exeter occasionally programmed Ivan Mauger at number 2 for tactical purposes to counteract a tactical move in heat eight. He also rode at number 4 to give a strong pairing away from home under the old 13 heat formula. I agree. I remember when Exeter occasionally programmed Ivan Mauger at number 2 for tactical purposes to counteract a tactical move in heat eight. He also rode at number 4 to give a strong pairing away from home under the old 13 heat formula. In the last race that is! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKYLANE Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 Fixed gates are an example of one of the very few regulations that have come in for the benefit of the Sport as a whole, I seem to remember that Peter Craven used to frequently ask his partner which gate he wanted as opposed to the rest of the heat leaders who bagged the best gate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 Fixed gates are an example of one of the very few regulations that have come in for the benefit of the Sport as a whole, I seem to remember that Peter Craven used to frequently ask his partner which gate he wanted as opposed to the rest of the heat leaders who bagged the best gate. Same with Mauger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enotian Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 Replace the double point tactical rides with choice of gates. So the match starts with fixed gates but if a team is 6 or more behind they get the opportunity to have the choice of gates. Should help to keep scores closer and become a point of tactical discussion without the "joker" unpopular element of double points. I'm always surprised by how little is made of gate positions during TV coverage and in general. In this information age there should be stats on what each rider averages out of each of the 4 gates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKYLANE Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 (edited) Replace the double point tactical rides with choice of gates. So the match starts with fixed gates but if a team is 6 or more behind they get the opportunity to have the choice of gates. Should help to keep scores closer and become a point of tactical discussion without the "joker" unpopular element of double points. I'm always surprised by how little is made of gate positions during TV coverage and in general. In this information age there should be stats on what each rider averages out of each of the 4 gates. Just get rid of the double points. I call double points the Mickey mouse rule as it makes our sport look Mickey Mouse Edited November 29, 2015 by KIRKYLANE 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 think we all agree with that! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Fair comment. I preferred alternate gates as it allowed for greater flexibility and tactical awareness and I know that Nielsen often chose the inside gate but we saw some tremendous team-riding whereby he waited for his partner (Marvyn Cox and Jens Rasmussen come immediately to mind) to join him. Far more difficult to team-ride from the outside. For example I remember occasions that a strong pairing (under the fixed gate scenario) had gates 1 & 3 and the opposite team's 'star' man would be off 4 with a reserve on gate 2. It gave the strong team a distinct advantage (especially at Oxford where there was a short run to the first bend) as they could dominate the first bend (unless the outside rider achieved an immaculate gate enabling him to close them down) I would have preferred having my 'star' rider in between (gate 2) the riders so that he was in a better position to 'put himself about a bit' if you get my meaning! Just reading Simon Wigg's book 'Wiggy' and to quote... '...by starting off gates four and three, in my first two rides, it meant that one of the visiting heat leaders would be on the inside of me. I could usually just about gate on them but not always. Gate four was b****** of a start to go from early in the meeting at Oxford, although it was not that bad later on if there was a bit of dirt out wide' However Wiggy was often his own worst enemy in some cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAST GATER Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Fixed gates are the reason that the averages of the top riders today are lower than years ago ,would rather have freedom of gates do away with double points but then I also like tape touching and the old tac/rule because i am out of touch and living in the past . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Fixed gates are the reason that the averages of the top riders today are lower than years ago ,would rather have freedom of gates do away with double points but then I also like tape touching and the old tac/rule because i am out of touch and living in the past .Like myself GATER and i wish we could have those days back. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Fixed gates are the reason that the averages of the top riders today are lower than years ago ,would rather have freedom of gates do away with double points but then I also like tape touching and the old tac/rule because i am out of touch and living in the past . Agree with you apart from tape touching, which I think doing away with has been the best decision over the last thirty odd years. I used to hate watching riders fannying about, rolling forwards and backwards at the tapes. I do think that races shouldn't be brought back if a rider makes a 'flyer' though. He's running the risk of being excluded for touching/breaking the tapes, so if he gets away with it, good luck to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 never get when riders pick gate 2 at a gp.. if the rider in gate 1, slightly move, it must be off putting and instincts must push you into the tapes. you also have to gate, on par, at least with gate one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Fixed gates are the reason that the averages of the top riders today are lower than years ago ,would rather have freedom of gates do away with double points but then I also like tape touching and the old tac/rule because i am out of touch and living in the past . So you prefer the best riders, to have the best gates all the time. Wow.. exciting racing that would provide! How about everyone gets an equal share of gates... seems perfectly reasonable to me.. then if 'the best' rider has a tougher gate he can show why he is 'the best' by overtaking those lesser souls in front of him. A very interesting subject Steve, i have changed my mind over the years i was not in favour of fixed gates but now i am.I used to go to Reading every week from 1984 to 89 as i followed Malc Holloway when he was paired with Jan Andersson Jan used to mainly get the best gates they both liked the inside gates.That used to really annoy me,but it was the norm then with Olsen,Mauger,Briggo,Nielsen (ect) always getting the cream of the gates.Would those great riders Mauger(ect) have got those great inflated averages in today's format?. i have my doubts but the likes of those four named were generally great off any gate anyway.So i think the fixed gates are the way to go fairer for everybody what is your take on it Steve.? Glad to see Sidney after you arguing against this for page after page on thread after thread you've finally seen the light and agree with what folk like myself, SVB, Waihekeaces have been telling you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted December 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) Agree with you apart from tape touching, which I think doing away with has been the best decision over the last thirty odd years. I used to hate watching riders fannying about, rolling forwards and backwards at the tapes. I do think that races shouldn't be brought back if a rider makes a 'flyer' though. He's running the risk of being excluded for touching/breaking the tapes, so if he gets away with it, good luck to him. If I allowed my heart to rule my head I would advocate tape touching as it created tension and the likes of Garry Middleton, I remember, used to con people into breaking the tapes when he would drop his clutch momentarily nudging the tapes! Malcolm Simmons did a similar thing to Kenny Carter. Middleton used to get up to all sorts of tricks and it really got the opposition riders and fans in a state! But I have to agree, it used to become a right pain with riders constantly rolling into the tapes, and it's one of the better rules that have been implemented. Edited December 1, 2015 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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