Your Own Great Memories.?

[steve roberts]

The 1983 final in Norden was a hell of a weekend,a long killing drive on the coach to get there with the weather at 6am P..... It down.All of us were resigned to the fact of the meeting being called off, but the weather improved and they did brilliantly to get the meeting on.Before the meeting most of us knew Muller would be a huge threat, we had heard he had behind closed door practice and knew the track would be suited to him.I was really confident Lee could win the meeting,and was really scared of Nielsen,Carter,Sanders but Muller was so fast it was unreal i was convinced he had a oversized engine.A great weekend the meeting not brilliant to be fair,but 1983 was one of my favourite years and Muller was a deserved winner. A few weeks later nearly the same line up rode at Coventry for the Ole farewell.

Also went to the same meeting and remember the long coach trip from our base Amsterdam. I had already been informed by a source that Hans Nielsen was to join Oxford the following year but had to keep that one under my hat (Dad had drawn his name on the coach 'sweepstake!') as it was still confidential! I wanted an Englishman to win and, as usual, Kenny Carter failed to deliver leaving Michael Lee the main threat. Dennis Sigalos was one of the favourites but was never really at the races. Muller was a class above that afternoon...but Hans did have the beating of him until throwing a chain!

[stratton]

Also went to the same meeting and remember the long coach trip from our base Amsterdam. I had already been informed by a source that Hans Nielsen was to join Oxford the following year but had to keep that one under my hat (Dad had drawn his name on the coach 'sweepstake!') as it was still confidential! I wanted an Englishman to win and, as usual, Kenny Carter failed to deliver leaving Michael Lee the main threat. Dennis Sigalos was one of the favourites but was never really at the races. Muller was a class above that afternoon...but Hans did have the beating of him until throwing a chain!

Two moments that day that stick in my mind was Lee looking for Carter in there race( he did the same in the 83 BLRC as well that year) that cost him dearly certainly at Hyde Rd.And Sanders gating Muller but was not ruthless anough he could of forced him wide but was to fair.I have always believed Sanders if he had not of died could of won a title, for his last couple of years he had been superb god bless him.

[steve roberts]

One of my last experiences of Billy was at Cowley (1984) on the occasion when he just rode straight thru' the tapes because a decision had gone against him! Last time I saw him ride was at Swindon (1985) which may have been his last ever meeting (?). Of course none of us knew what was about to happen and he was/is sadly missed.

 

Reminds me, also, when in 1973 Belle Vue visited Cowley and a decision went against Alan Wilkinson (another character) and he strode from the pits and tore the tapes out of its sockets!

 

As you can imagine the crowd went wild!

[Reviresco]

One of my last experiences of Billy was at Cowley (1984) on the occasion when he just rode straight thru' the tapes because a decision had gone against him! Last time I saw him ride was at Swindon (1985) which may have been his last ever meeting (?). Of course none of us knew what was about to happen and he was/is sadly missed.

 

Unlike Billy to react when a decision had gone against him, . And, as you say Steve, Bill's last ever meeting was at Swindon three days before he left us. I would have been at both those matches. He was programmed to ride at Monmore on the Monday, but John Berry & Chris Shears decided to withdraw him from the meeting.

 

Billy had come a long way from the raw 16 year old 'Kid' who, on his first appearance in the UK, was promoted into Heat 1 of the Spring Gold Cup at Foxhall against Hackney as a reserve substitution and went out and won the Heat beating the then current World No. 3, Bengt Jansson, and followed this up with another victory in Heat 2.

 

So many memories. Loads of ups and downs. A classy rider with a lovely riding style. Great company and a big fan of the sport. Lucky to have got to know him and his family well and be able to call him a friend. 1982 at Kings Lynn was good fun. Great to see how happy he was at Smallmead after the Witches had sown up the 1984 League Title under his captaincy, then to go on and clinch the Double with a Cup Final win against the Aces. Great times and happy days. A genuine character of the sport.

[stratton]

Unlike Billy to react when a decision had gone against him, . And, as you say Steve, Bill's last ever meeting was at Swindon three days before he left us. I would have been at both those matches. He was programmed to ride at Monmore on the Monday, but John Berry & Chris Shears decided to withdraw him from the meeting.

 

Billy had come a long way from the raw 16 year old 'Kid' who, on his first appearance in the UK, was promoted into Heat 1 of the Spring Gold Cup at Foxhall against Hackney as a reserve substitution and went out and won the Heat beating the then current World No. 3, Bengt Jansson, and followed this up with another victory in Heat 2.

 

So many memories. Loads of ups and downs. A classy rider with a lovely riding style. Great company and a big fan of the sport. Lucky to have got to know him and his family well and be able to call him a friend. 1982 at Kings Lynn was good fun. Great to see how happy he was at Smallmead after the Witches had sown up the 1984 League Title under his captaincy, then to go on and clinch the Double with a Cup Final win against the Aces. Great times and happy days. A genuine character of the sport.

A classy rider i was a massive Phil Crump fan but i admired Billy so much a fantastic rider and i still regularly watch the Pairs meeting where he was asesome for Australia at Gothenburg could he of been a WC he had every chance. Edited December 10, 2015 by sidney

[Reviresco]

A classy rider i was a massive Phil Crump fan but i admired Billy so much a fantastic rider and i still regularly watch the Pairs meeting where he was asesome for Australia at Gothenburg could he of been a WC he had every chance.

 

Thanks Sidney. Of course we all know about the fall out between Phil and Billy, which pleasingly they patched up before Bill left us. It guaranteed a warm welcome at Blunsdon at least. The time Bill landed a right hook on a Swindon fan - it wasn't you was it Sid , who had come onto the dog track to give him the W@anker sign after a heat. Billy had been an amateur boxer and knew how to look after himself. Also, Billy going into the bar at Blunsdon after a meeting and after being roundly derided, jumped up and did a 'we are all speedway fans' speech, which I think earned him some new admirers. Will always remember Phil flicking the finger at Billy after finishing in front of him in a heat at Foxhall and then in the 2nd half final, Phil took the route of discretion over valour and trundled round at the back of the field, rode straight out of the pits, onto his Citroen Safari and straight down the A12 still dressed in his leathers.

 

Two great riders during a golden era of speedway and despite Billy's curtailed career, both known for their club loyalty and longevity. A great shame they didn't get their act together in the World Pairs. Of course, under the previous 3 year rotation, Ullevi would have been due to host the 1983 World Individual Final and not the Pairs. The 1983 Pairs showed Bill was back to top level and was going to be right up there in the Individual Final that year. I think Bill would've gone well at Odsal in the 1985 Final and been a contender for a number of years to come, as he was only 29 when he passed away.

 

I was lucky to spend some time in the pits with Bill, both in the UK and Australia and well remember young Jason tearing round during practice for the 1981 Australasian Final at Liverpool. Was also in the Blunsdon pits with him when Bill pulled out of the meeting due to track conditions. That was a fun time. Strange that Blunsdon was the last time we saw him on track.

[stratton]

Thanks Sidney. Of course we all know about the fall out between Phil and Billy, which pleasingly they patched up before Bill left us. It guaranteed a warm welcome at Blunsdon at least. The time Bill landed a right hook on a Swindon fan - it wasn't you was it Sid , who had come onto the dog track to give him the W@anker sign after a heat. Billy had been an amateur boxer and knew how to look after himself. Also, Billy going into the bar at Blunsdon after a meeting and after being roundly derided, jumped up and did a 'we are all speedway fans' speech, which I think earned him some new admirers. Will always remember Phil flicking the finger at Billy after finishing in front of him in a heat at Foxhall and then in the 2nd half final, Phil took the route of discretion over valour and trundled round at the back of the field, rode straight out of the pits, onto his Citroen Safari and straight down the A12 still dressed in his leathers.

 

Two great riders during a golden era of speedway and despite Billy's curtailed career, both known for their club loyalty and longevity. A great shame they didn't get their act together in the World Pairs. Of course, under the previous 3 year rotation, Ullevi would have been due to host the 1983 World Individual Final and not the Pairs. The 1983 Pairs showed Bill was back to top level and was going to be right up there in the Individual Final that year. I think Bill would've gone well at Odsal in the 1985 Final and been a contender for a number of years to come, as he was only 29 when he passed away.

 

I was lucky to spend some time in the pits with Bill, both in the UK and Australia and well remember young Jason tearing round during practice for the 1981 Australasian Final at Liverpool. Was also in the Blunsdon pits with him when Bill pulled out of the meeting due to track conditions. That was a fun time. Strange that Blunsdon was the last time we saw him on track.

"Macca i can always remember when Bill got on the mike and ripped into the Aussie fans i think that incident really hurt him.Remember also when Crumpy was eliminated on 12 points from the WC ( Billy and Glyn Taylor qualified ) after Bill/Phil clashed in a racing incident.I don't know if they ever patched thing's up properly but i know that they got on well most of the time.Both great riders and both very hard men and riders,it was a pleasure to see both of them ride.I can remember Bill walking out at Swindon for King's Lynn in terrible conditions,i can remember Heat 1 in that meeting Holloway gated and won it and Mike Lee got Crumpy on the last bend for second place. Edited December 10, 2015 by sidney

[customhouseregular]

Sorry, not 1972 to 76 as I don't agree with your premise that they were the great days! But, yes, looking through old programmes is great for bringing back the memories, Sidney,

 

As I've said on here before, my greatest memory, and one I can still recall vividly, much better than any recent matches, is the afternoon West Ham beat Wimbledon at Wimbledon in the Knock Out Cup Quarter Final replay on 14 August 1965 without Sverre Harrfeldt or Norman Hunter. The night our five point second string Malcolm Simmons suddenly became a star.14 points in the match, including the three fastest times of the night, a victory over Olle Nygren in the 2nd half and then, to top it all off, beating him in a special race with Malcolm giving 10 yards in a handicap! Oh yes, it also saw Tony Clarke's debut. It was an unbelievable meeting and the start of West Ham's total dominance for the rest of that season, remaining unbeaten, taking the League, Cup and London Cup treble.

Like this, like this a lot.

A lot of memories for me but Stan Stevens holding off Briggo for 4 laps at Custom House is a strong one.

[stratton]

Like this, like this a lot.A lot of memories for me but Stan Stevens holding off Briggo for 4 laps at Custom House is a strong one.

Hand on my heart Custom i still believe Briggo was a better rider he reached more world finals than Ove.Also someone posted the other day if Bengt Jansson had of Won the better gate Ove would not of won five titles.Ove was a great rider but Craven beat him regular and you would have to say Briggo outlasted Ove for longevity.

[iris123]

One of those pieces of luck,but I have to say Fundins name on the trophy sits a lot better than that of Banga.Ok he might have grown in stature as a rider with a world title,but from my experience if he had of won he would go down as one of the worst ever to win the title.Nothing against him,but was he really world champ quality?

 

Actually looking at the records,Jansson qualified for 5 world finals,3 of which were in Sweden where he only had the Swedish riders to beat and hardly ever won a qualifying meeting even against his fellow countrymen

Edited December 10, 2015 by iris123

[customhouseregular]

Hand on my heart Custom i still believe Briggo was a better rider he reached more world finals than Ove.Also someone posted the other day if Bengt Jansson had of Won the better gate Ove would not of won five titles.Ove was a great rider but Craven beat him regular and you would have to say Briggo outlasted Ove for longevity.

No argument from me my friend.

[stratton]

No argument from me my friend.

Very close Custom i recon down to your overall inner feeling, both GREAT riders that is a certainty.!!

[norbold]

Hand on my heart Custom i still believe Briggo was a better rider he reached more world finals than Ove.Also someone posted the other day if Bengt Jansson had of (sic) Won the better gate Ove would not of (sic) won five titles.Ove was a great rider but Craven beat him regular and you would have to say Briggo outlasted Ove for longevity.

As you know, Sidney, I completely disagree with you, both from having seen them both myself from 1960 onwards and statistically. There is no doubt in my mind that Ove was superior to Briggo. Indeed in 1960, Briggo rode for my team, New Cross, and Ove regularly beat him round the Frying Pan on Briggo's home track. You can't say with any certainty what would have happened if the gates had been reversed for the 1967 final. I was at the 1967 final and Ove was the best rider there and deserved to win. Also, speedway is full of couldave, wouldave, shouldave, mightaves. Do you know for certain that there were no "lucky" incidents that went in Briggo's favour when he won his World titles?

 

Also, Peter Craven did NOT regularly beat Fundin. All the record shows is that he beat Fundin more times than Briggo, Moore or Knutson did, not that he regularly beat him. In the Golden Helmet, for example, Fundin and Craven met eight times, with Fundin winning 5-3. And one of those three he lost was because he had to forfeit the 3rd leg, due to a prior commitment in Sweden. In any case, apart from not being correct in itself, it also shows that Briggo's own record against Fundin was inferior to Craven's. Not good for a rider supposedly better.

 

We've seen published on this forum the Speedway Star ratings from 1956 to 1966, showing Fundin's record was far superior to Briggo's. I know you have a thing about Briggo, Sidney, but his being superior to Fundin is not borne out by any proper analysis of the two records, whether on paper or from memories of people around at the time.

[stratton]

As you know, Sidney, I completely disagree with you, both from having seen them both myself from 1960 onwards and statistically. There is no doubt in my mind that Ove was superior to Briggo. Indeed in 1960, Briggo rode for my team, New Cross, and Ove regularly beat him round the Frying Pan on Briggo's home track. You can't say with any certainty what would have happened if the gates had been reversed for the 1967 final. I was at the 1967 final and Ove was the best rider there and deserved to win. Also, speedway is full of couldave, wouldave, shouldave, mightaves. Do you know for certain that there were no "lucky" incidents that went in Briggo's favour when he won his World titles?

Also, Peter Craven did NOT regularly beat Fundin. All the record shows is that he beat Fundin more times than Briggo, Moore or Knutson did, not that he regularly beat him. In the Golden Helmet, for example, Fundin and Craven met eight times, with Fundin winning 5-3. And one of those three he lost was because he had to forfeit the 3rd leg, due to a prior commitment in Sweden. In any case, apart from not being correct in itself, it also shows that Briggo's own record against Fundin was inferior to Craven's. Not good for a rider supposedly better.

We've seen published on this forum the Speedway Star ratings from 1956 to 1966, showing Fundin's record was far superior to Briggo's. I know you have a thing about Briggo, Sidney, but his being superior to Fundin is not borne out by any proper analysis of the two records, whether on paper or from memories of people around at the time.

I believe he was the better rider " Norbold" but that is only my opinion and my uncle who clouded my judgement!!! and your opinion well i respect that bigtime up there with the best of um no doubt about that.Craven died in 62 and i am sure if he had lived beyond his 29 years he had Ove's measure Briggo with his four titles six British Titles and six BLRC titles (on the bounce) he did ok for me anyway. Edited December 10, 2015 by sidney

[lucifer sam]

he had Ove's measure Briggo with his four titles six British Titles and six BLRC titles (on the bounce) he did ok for me anyway.

 

Sid, so Briggo had Ove's measure because he won six British titles and six BLRC titles, even though Ove wasn't in these meetings??

 

I think the figures speak for themselves. Briggo was a fabulous rider, but Ove was just a little bit better.

 

Ronnie Moore was the best rider in the world, and overtaken by Fundin. Briggo hit a real purple patch around 1958, but slipped back after missing most of the 1959 season. From 1960 up until Craven's death, Craven was a little ahead of Briggo.

 

Briggo was the best rider in the world for around a 3-4 year spell, after Fundin slipped into semi-retirement after the closure of Norwich. The 1967 World Final is notable. Fundin had only done a handful of meetings all year but still won it.

 

All the best

Rob

[BOBBATH]

Great thread , although Sidney I have to correct one thing- PC died in 63 not 62. He was in 63 World Final defending his title but had a rough evening what with one thing and another.

[bruno]

As you say great thread,what happened in 63 world final.bit before my time

[stratton]

Great thread , although Sidney I have to correct one thing- PC died in 63 not 62. He was in 63 World Final defending his title but had a rough evening what with one thing and another.

Sorry Bobbath going a bit senile in me old age, bloody hell it was 63 Peter was only 29 so do you recon he had at least five more years at the top level "Bobbath"?? i think he did another subject but his early rides at Liverpool did no suggest he would be a great.! what do you think.

[norbold]

As you say great thread,what happened in 63 world final.bit before my time

Ove Fundin won and Briggo was 3rd.

Craven died in 62 and i am sure if he had lived beyond his 29 years he had Ove's measure.

I don't understand your reasoning. By 1963 they had both qualified for every final since 1954. Fundin's record was far superior to Craven's in those finals and in 1963, Fundin won and Craven was 10th. Why, after all this time, would Craven suddenly have got Fundin's measure? He didn't show much sign of it in the 1963 final! Edited December 11, 2015 by norbold

[stratton]

Sid, so Briggo had Ove's measure because he won six British titles and six BLRC titles, even though Ove wasn't in these meetings??

 

I think the figures speak for themselves. Briggo was a fabulous rider, but Ove was just a little bit better.

 

Ronnie Moore was the best rider in the world, and overtaken by Fundin. Briggo hit a real purple patch around 1958, but slipped back after missing most of the 1959 season. From 1960 up until Craven's death, Craven was a little ahead of Briggo.

 

Briggo was the best rider in the world for around a 3-4 year spell, after Fundin slipped into semi-retirement after the closure of Norwich. The 1967 World Final is notable. Fundin had only done a handful of meetings all year but still won it.

 

All the best

Rob

Sam it is funny really because as you know i am very bias when Briggo is concerned.With speaking to people over the years i recon it was nearly split in opinion on who was the better rider Fundin i only see ride twice but he was a legend.I have a farewell meeting for Briggo signed by Ove in 76 at Hull also a picture when riding for Norwich signed a prized asset for me.

Ove Fundin won and Briggo was 3rd.

I don't understand you're reasoning. By 1963 they had both qualified for every final since 1954. Fundin's record was far superior to Craven's in those finals and in 1963, Fundin won and Craven was 10th. Why, after all this time, would Craven suddenly have got Fundin's measure? He didn't show much sign of it in the 1963 final!

Was Fundin finished by about 69 ? being generous that is why Briggo beat him for Longevity Barry SHOULD of won it in 72.?IN 68 PC would of only been aged 34/35 so who knows. Edited December 10, 2015 by sidney