g13webb Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 I find it useless trying to reason, the obvious problems of the Draft section, with most of Poole posters, they come across as 'clueless in the extreme', But I'm in no doubt, that if the shoe was on the other foot, they would be the first to understand the issues and voice concern. As always they come out smelling of 'Roses' while other teams are scrapping around, trying to find riders good enough to offer fair competition. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Once the BSPA included rider's like Howarth who was a 2nd string last season PL averages was the only option. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 We finished Champions, remember.. We ? YOU are not champion of anything. Poole Speedwáy team, of which you are not a member are Elite League Champions. You are just a hanger on, even if your dream world tells you that you are part of the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Once the BSPA included rider's like Howarth who was a 2nd string last season PL averages was the only option. why? they could have simply had a different conversion rate for his average? as it is it seems there is one rider (Howarth) who didn't have an EL average from 2015 earned from an FTR position. There is one rider who did have an average earned from EL FTS spot, but didn't have a 2015 PL average (Ellis). Maybe there are a couple of others ( R Worrall, Barker have been mentioned?), but I don't see that as a good reason to throw common sense out of the window - use the method which most accurately reflects the bulk of riders, and work out a fair way to deal with the "exceptions." We ? YOU are not champion of anything. Poole Speedwáy team, of which you are not a member are Elite League Champions. You are just a hanger on, even if your dream world tells you that you are part of the team. i disagree. surely the Jerran Hart thread is one of two contenders (the Mason Wear thread is the other one) for unintentional comedy threads of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 So - answer this for me - how did Poole pick before Swindon?? Â They didn't! Ellis had already spoken to Swindon and Poole and there were likely to be more fixture clashes with Swindon!! Â Rosco knows who he has selected from Tier 2, but theres a similar issue with potential fixture clashes which needs to be clarified before any announcement. Same with BV 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirates Of Poole Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Skidder1 is right, Newman was protected in grade 1 selection and Poole got to pick before Swindon in grade 2. Where Adam is riding in the PL would have also effected his Swindon duty. BV and Swindon know who they want but will have to wait until their PL teams are confirmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeds Pirate Blue Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) I find it useless trying to reason, the obvious problems of the Draft section, with most of Poole posters, they come across as 'clueless in the extreme', But I'm in no doubt, that if the shoe was on the other foot, they would be the first to understand the issues and voice concern. As always they come out smelling of 'Roses' while other teams are scrapping around, trying to find riders good enough to offer fair competition.Sounds like your opinion is that any Poole fan who doesn't think their side cheats and manipulates the rules every year is 'clueless in the extreme'. Â Some general points on this topic... Â Howarth at reserve is a bit of a p***take. But who cares? It's helping a young British rider make sure he gets an Elite League place. The goal of the system is to make sure young British talent is included in the Elite League, which in this case it is doing as its unlikely Howarth (and Newman) would have NOT got a spot in a 1-5 this year. Â Considering the draft hasn't really been published, there are a lot of assumptions being made in here by some very assertive people. Does anyone on here definitively know the order riders were taken?? Did Poole defo get Ellis as the 2nd pick in the 2nd tier? Â It's interesting the some people seem to think riders are opinionless robots who will ride anywhere, for anyone. Not human beings with preferences and other commitments. Is it not within reason that Adam Ellis made himself unavailable to some teams because of travel and PL duties etc? Let alone personal preference! Â Also, it is all very tiring reading the same old opinion that Poole and/or Matt Ford are secretly running the sport behind the scenes by setting up the rules to suit themselves every year. Or coercing the other promoters to consent to his Poole-favouring rules. It's madness. It seems much more plausible that Ford is an astute Promoter with a commitment and work ethic that makes the difference. I'm not saying he doesn't push his luck and test the rules to breaking point, even stepping over the line on a few occasions. However, the idea that he is actively pulling all the strings behind the scenes is just fantasy. Â There is no point pretending speedway isn't a mickey mouse sport, and the British league is on its knees. Poole are the most successful club in the last decade. They are the best supported, its a nice area to live and there is a decent amount of local sponsors keen to get involved. Riders actually get paid. On top of this, success breeds success. Is it really that surprising that the wealthiest and best run club is continually successful? Edited November 10, 2015 by Bleeds Pirate Blue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tellboy Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Once the BSPA included rider's like Howarth who was a 2nd string last season PL averages was the only option. If this is the case couldn't Lynn for instance use Lamberts converted PL average of 5.02 put him at reserve,Kerr in the main 1-5 they swap after 4 matches when Lambert gets a new average.This would enable Lynn to have an extra 1.57 points for the 1-5 as Lamberts starting average would be 6.59 if starting in the 1-5. It's all fu*k*d up as usual. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 If this is the case couldn't Lynn for instance use Lamberts converted PL average of 5.02 put him at reserve,Kerr in the main 1-5 they swap after 4 matches when Lambert gets a new average.This would enable Lynn to have an extra 1.57 points for the 1-5 as Lamberts starting average would be 6.59 if starting in the 1-5. It's all fu*k*d up as usual. Â If you mean Robert Lambert - there is no way he would ride for reserve or a second string wages as he believes he is an established heat leader!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tellboy Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Â If you mean Robert Lambert - there is no way he would ride for reserve or a second string wages as he believes he is an established heat leader!! You think having to ride at reserve for 4 matches he would only get a reserve wage.This is speedway we are talking about here,lots of things go underhanded,he wouldn't get a reserves wage that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 Sounds like your opinion is that any Poole fan who doesn't think their side cheats and manipulates the rules every year is 'clueless in the extreme'. Â Some general points on this topic... Â Howarth at reserve is a bit of a p***take. But who cares? It's helping a young British rider make sure he gets an Elite League place. The goal of the system is to make sure young British talent is included in the Elite League, which in this case it is doing as its unlikely Howarth (and Newman) would have NOT got a spot in a 1-5 this year. Â Considering the draft hasn't really been published, there are a lot of assumptions being made in here by some very assertive people. Does anyone on here definitively know the order riders were taken?? Did Poole defo get Ellis as the 2nd pick in the 2nd tier? Â It's interesting the some people seem to think riders are opinionless robots who will ride anywhere, for anyone. Not human beings with preferences and other commitments. Is it not within reason that Adam Ellis made himself unavailable to some teams because of travel and PL duties etc? Let alone personal preference! Â Also, it is all very tiring reading the same old opinion that Poole and/or Matt Ford are secretly running the sport behind the scenes by setting up the rules to suit themselves every year. Or coercing the other promoters to consent to his Poole-favouring rules. It's madness. It seems much more plausible that Ford is an astute Promoter with a commitment and work ethic that makes the difference. I'm not saying he doesn't push his luck and test the rules to breaking point, even stepping over the line on a few occasions. However, the idea that he is actively pulling all the strings behind the scenes is just fantasy. Â There is no point pretending speedway isn't a mickey mouse sport, and the British league is on its knees. Poole are the most successful club in the last decade. They are the best supported, its a nice area to live and there is a decent amount of local sponsors keen to get involved. Riders actually get paid. On top of this, success breeds success. Is it really that surprising that the wealthiest and best run club is continually successful? Â You have stated that 'Howarth at reserve is a bit of a p***take' and I, for the life of me don't see it that way. As much as I think Howarth is a decent rider, he is not of the class of Newman. Newman is a great talent destined for a brilliant career. Already he has helped Poole secure successive Championships, a important factor of any winning team. He is without doubt the top Draft rider since the scheme began. Â Thinking about Drafts logically:......Even forgetting Poole won the League, because Newman is the best of the bunch, and was protected by Poole. No problem with that, then Poole should have had last choice of the tier2 riders. This is where the problems start. Whatever method they choose to use, if the riders are not in the correct order then the selection process is flawed. PL averages are being used this year, and like previously, it gives the wrong outcome. Like someone else says, why didn't they use Golf as an way of choosing, why not a Penalty competition , each are as relevant than the PL averages... Â Matt Ford has immense power generated just by the assets he holds. With them, he can pull in a lot of favours from other promoters, them wanting to use some.... Don't blame him for that either. but we are desperate for the sport to be open, and where, honesty rules all.... Â A massive issue with the way the sport is run is the secrecy of it all. We now had 3 AGM's and we still don't have the list of heat leaders, we don't know the no of clubs or about the fixture process yet. Why is every decision clouded in mystery as though it is of the upmost importance. Why can't the committee be open and stand up for their opinions? What are they ashamed of? Decisions like the above will always happen until we get an open and honest BSPA. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen chemistry Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Â You have stated that 'Howarth at reserve is a bit of a p***take' and I, for the life of me don't see it that way. As much as I think Howarth is a decent rider, he is not of the class of Newman. Newman is a great talent destined for a brilliant career. Already he has helped Poole secure successive Championships, a important factor of any winning team. He is without doubt the top Draft rider since the scheme began. Â Thinking about Drafts logically:......Even forgetting Poole won the League, because Newman is the best of the bunch, and was protected by Poole. No problem with that, then Poole should have had last choice of the tier2 riders. This is where the problems start. Whatever method they choose to use, if the riders are not in the correct order then the selection process is flawed. PL averages are being used this year, and like previously, it gives the wrong outcome. Like someone else says, why didn't they use Golf as an way of choosing, why not a Penalty competition , each are as relevant than the PL averages... Â Matt Ford has immense power generated just by the assets he holds. With them, he can pull in a lot of favours from other promoters, them wanting to use some.... Don't blame him for that either. but we are desperate for the sport to be open, and where, honesty rules all.... Â A massive issue with the way the sport is run is the secrecy of it all. We now had 3 AGM's and we still don't have the list of heat leaders, we don't know the no of clubs or about the fixture process yet. Why is every decision clouded in mystery as though it is of the upmost importance. Why can't the committee be open and stand up for their opinions? What are they ashamed of? Decisions like the above will always happen until we get an open and honest BSPA. Â they dont want to be open and transparent, the cat would be out the bag then and us fans will get to see how there scratch my back , hidden favours system really is as pathetic as it is Edited November 10, 2015 by heathen chemistry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Â You have stated that 'Howarth at reserve is a bit of a p***take' and I, for the life of me don't see it that way. As much as I think Howarth is a decent rider, he is not of the class of Newman. Newman is a great talent destined for a brilliant career. Already he has helped Poole secure successive Championships, a important factor of any winning team. He is without doubt the top Draft rider since the scheme began. Â Thinking about Drafts logically:......Even forgetting Poole won the League, because Newman is the best of the bunch, and was protected by Poole. No problem with that, then Poole should have had last choice of the tier2 riders. This is where the problems start. Whatever method they choose to use, if the riders are not in the correct order then the selection process is flawed. PL averages are being used this year, and like previously, it gives the wrong outcome. Like someone else says, why didn't they use Golf as an way of choosing, why not a Penalty competition , each are as relevant than the PL averages... Â Matt Ford has immense power generated just by the assets he holds. With them, he can pull in a lot of favours from other promoters, them wanting to use some.... Don't blame him for that either. but we are desperate for the sport to be open, and where, honesty rules all.... Â A massive issue with the way the sport is run is the secrecy of it all. We now had 3 AGM's and we still don't have the list of heat leaders, we don't know the no of clubs or about the fixture process yet. Why is every decision clouded in mystery as though it is of the upmost importance. Why can't the committee be open and stand up for their opinions? What are they ashamed of? Decisions like the above will always happen until we get an open and honest BSPA. 3 AGMs???? The main reason the AGM was in 2 parts is a constitutional one. The BSPA constitution (like most other associations) will state that the AGM must be on a specific date or in a specific month. When BSPA tried to do the decent thing and make some decisions earlier than usual ie in October, someone forgot that the Constitution says November - which is why the AGM had to be re-convened (and I'm sure the Constitution updated!!). Â We do know the number of EL clubs - 8. We do know the number of fixtures - just look at some of the club season ticket prices for the number of meetings (although that does raise the question of whether it is right to announce season ticket prices before teams are known??!) Â In many respects - from an administrative point of view - the BSPA is no different to any other national association. Its meeting minutes are made available to its members (the Promoters) and a statement/press release is issued to the public/media if and when appropriate as a summary of their key decisions. Â Â We are still a couple of weeks ahead of previous years. Edited November 10, 2015 by Skidder1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeds Pirate Blue Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 @GRW123 thank you for your reasoned and honest response that featured no bickering. You've instantly become one of the most respected people on this forum in my eyes. Sorry if my initial lines seemed petty. Being a Poole fan in here grates after a while... Â While I don't disagree Newman is better than Howarth, Howarth is only 21, and the reigning BU21 champ. The British league should, in my opinion, be doing their utmost to help his development. A season at reserve to ensure his employment in the top British league is fine in my books. Â As a huge NFL and fantasy football fan I'm very much au fait drafts and their benefits (and pitfalls). For it to actually work anyone in the draft should not be an asset of any club, or protected. They should essentially be free agents or temps awaiting assignment. And there should be a set draft order based on league finishing position. I'm fine with using PL averages for team building, but deciding draft pick position allows for manipulation. That is something all promoters agreed to. They wanted a system they could game, not one that is actually fair... Â Your points on MF and his use of assets are likely valid. This situation would have been arrived at though after several years of MF out promoting the others. It didn't just fall in his lap. I have a hard time disliking MF for his success (I dislike him for my own reasons), and I have a feeling that most promoters wished they were as sharp and astute when it comes to running their clubs. Loopholes and obviously abusable rules are left in so everyone gets their shot at the cheeky fiddle. Unfortunately for them, they always come off second best to MF. Â As for your point on secrecy, well, its no big deal to me. It tends to be the conspiracy theorists that have the issues with all the cloak and dagger goings on at the AGM. Probably just covering their asses. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loudermilk Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 The strongest reserve pairing has to be Kyle Newman and Adam Ellis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 The strongest reserve pairing has to be Kyle Newman and Adam Ellis.Auty and Starke is stronger TBF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starman2006 Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 Â Â Auty and Starke is stronger TBF. Not so sure about that. Adam has a lot improvement in him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 (edited) You have stated that 'Howarth at reserve is a bit of a p***take' and I, for the life of me don't see it that way. As much as I think Howarth is a decent rider, he is not of the class of Newman. Newman is a great talent destined for a brilliant career. Already he has helped Poole secure successive Championships, a important factor of any winning team. He is without doubt the top Draft rider since the scheme began. Â Thinking about Drafts logically:......Even forgetting Poole won the League, because Newman is the best of the bunch, and was protected by Poole. No problem with that, then Poole should have had last choice of the tier2 riders. This is where the problems start. Whatever method they choose to use, if the riders are not in the correct order then the selection process is flawed. PL averages are being used this year, and like previously, it gives the wrong outcome. Like someone else says, why didn't they use Golf as an way of choosing, why not a Penalty competition , each are as relevant than the PL averages... Â Matt Ford has immense power generated just by the assets he holds. With them, he can pull in a lot of favours from other promoters, them wanting to use some.... Don't blame him for that either. but we are desperate for the sport to be open, and where, honesty rules all.... Â A massive issue with the way the sport is run is the secrecy of it all. We now had 3 AGM's and we still don't have the list of heat leaders, we don't know the no of clubs or about the fixture process yet. Why is every decision clouded in mystery as though it is of the upmost importance. Why can't the committee be open and stand up for their opinions? What are they ashamed of? Decisions like the above will always happen until we get an open and honest BSPA. Â I respect your opinion GRW bigtime,but i am not convinced with your opinion, ( ie Howarth did really well in a mega top five he really surprised me so much so unlucky to go because of Darcy coming in .Newman has never done this, he has rode just in his safety zone at reserve i believe Howarth,Auty,Garrity are better than him this year is a massive year for Kyle Newman we shall see. Edited November 11, 2015 by sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy robin Posted November 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 I respect your opinion GRW bigtime,but i am not convinced with your opinion, ( ie Howarth did really well in a mega top five he really surprised me so much so unlucky to go because of Darcy coming in .Newman has never done this, he has rode just in his safety zone at reserve i believe Howarth,Auty,Garrity are better than him this year is a massive year for Kyle Newman we shall see. Totally agree as until Newman rides in the top 5 he hasn't achieved what Howarth has. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted November 12, 2015 Report Share Posted November 12, 2015 I respect your opinion GRW bigtime,but i am not convinced with your opinion, ( ie Howarth did really well in a mega top five he really surprised me so much so unlucky to go because of Darcy coming in .Newman has never done this, he has rode just in his safety zone at reserve i believe Howarth,Auty,Garrity are better than him this year is a massive year for Kyle Newman we shall see. I respect your opinion also Sidney, but to me when the chips are down its Newman who you can count on. In each of the last two years when it get to the play-offs Newman has come to the fore, leaving others in his wake. Howarth is a good prospect and has done well, Garrity good to watch but is so erratic and drops silly points, Auty because of injury hasn't done much for a couple of years , all good riders but still someway behind Newman's consistency. If I had to choose it would be Newman everytime. Â Like you say, different people, different opinions......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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