BWitcher Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 in fairness, Mauger in 1980 was still one of the top 20 riders in the world, which isn't something Harris could claim to be. And the commonwealth final did include 5 of the top 10 riders in the world, most of the rest were top 30, and all in the top 50. A stronger line up than the GP challenge by a decent margin. I agree with the ealrier parts of your post though. Penhall in 81 won the american and inter-continental finals, both with maximums iirc. missed out in the overseas final after a crash with Carter! he also won the world pairs. Penhall in 81 was by a considerable margin the best in the world, and that season IMHO surpassed anything Greg has produced. Put Penhall in GP series, and I think he would have been 2nd in 80, champ by a huge maring in 81, and probably just pipping Carter to the title in 82. at the same time i think some diminish Greg's world titles by assuming his latter titles are due to weaker opposition, whereas in fact I think he's actually just riding as well or better than in his younger days. It depends how you judge world class I suppose. For some people it would be the top 5 in the world, for others top 10, others maybe class top 20. Who have you ranked similar this year, to where Mauger ranked in 1980? That would be a good comparison. I'm not belittling Penhall's achievements at all by the way and I think he does rank above Hancock, just about. Hancock I think has most certainly got better, he has got the complete package dialled in now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Current year I have zagar at 16, who I would consider world class. But below that is prem pawlicki then aj, who I wouldn't. I'd say mauger 80 version is borderline, personally I'd say he was a shade below world class, but that's highly subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 If you're having Mauger as being World Class in 1980, then Harris is World Class in 2015. Seems you're setting a low bar. Don't be ridiculous. Mauger was clearly still within the best 20 riders in the world in 1980. As much as I applaud Bomber for his heroics in getting back into the GP, I doubt if Harris would be considered in the top 40 or 50. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben91 Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 But Penhall won 2 or 3 World finals. Does Hancock have a 66% sucess rate in the GPs? I guess it comes down to what you consider best. Are we talking the best on the that one day when they rode the best they had ever raced? Their best season? Or streched over 5 years? Or a whole career? For example, Danish GP last year. Batchelor was amazing. On that one meeting alone you've probably got one of the top 15 meetings ridden by anyone of all time. But over the season he was just ordinary and over a career a bit less than that. Over their whole careers Penhall for me by a long way. I can't comment on based no best ever meeting but I've certainly seen Greg ride like a man possessed at times and look like he could ride 100 times and not be beaten (the last GP and the GP last year where Puk wiped him out) as for longevity, then Hancock surely goes down as best ever, he must have the longest time span between World Titles? He's raced in far more GPs than Penhall did in World Finals though. Across a season luck can even out, in a one off individual any small mistake/misfortune can impact the end result completely. Take that Danish GP as an example, had that been a one off World Final then Troy Batchelor would have been World Champion. Then in thirty years when people were arguing over whether the sport was better in the halcyon days of the 2010s or the current crop in the 2040s Batchelor would have been seriously debated as one of the best ever. I don't think there's any doubt about Hancock from a longevity point of view, he's had peaks and troughs perhaps but he has been one of the top riders in the world throughout that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Lets take a 10 point average in 1980. Not consider the race format just for now, lets merely recalculate it to to what it would be today 10 point average included bonus points so simply recalculating it brings it down to 9.3 9.3 is still good so now lets factor in heat 15 That takes off 0.38 per rider in it on average off so our previous 10 point man is now only 8.9. All of a sudden he doesn't seem to be the superstar we thought he was. Now throw in fixed gate positions and the format that pits the top men together virtually every race and you can comfortably take another point away. Now our superstar seems pretty crap tbh, sub 8 average Of course the only constant, whatever the format or riders is that the mean will roughly be 6 so in the old days for every superstar on 10 point averages there was a wobbler on 2, every 8 point man had a mere 4 point counterpart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 He's raced in far more GPs than Penhall did in World Finals though. Across a season luck can even out, in a one off individual any small mistake/misfortune can impact the end result completely. It can, although there's a strong chance that Penhall would have won a Grand Prix series has it be held in 1980, 1981 and 1982. My own personal hunch is that Dave Jessup (if he could have kept the number of e/fs down!!) or Michael Lee would have just edged out Penhall across 1980, but Penhall would have triumphed in both 1981 and 1982. Domestically, Kenny Carter had the edge in 1982, but I'm not sure about internationally. Penhall was, in particular, the dominating force in 1981. I'm not sure if Greg has ever completely dominated a year, although he's certainly been the most consistent in a few. I'm going to plump for Bruce, but I appreciate it's comparing apples with oranges: the rider who achieved the most within a very short career, against a rider with incredible longevity. All the best Rob Lets take a 10 point average in 1980. Not consider the race format just for now, lets merely recalculate it to to what it would be today 10 point average included bonus points so simply recalculating it brings it down to 9.3 9.3 is still good so now lets factor in heat 15 That takes off 0.38 per rider in it on average off so our previous 10 point man is now only 8.9. All of a sudden he doesn't seem to be the superstar we thought he was. Now throw in fixed gate positions and the format that pits the top men together virtually every race and you can comfortably take another point away. Now our superstar seems pretty crap tbh, sub 8 average Of course the only constant, whatever the format or riders is that the mean will roughly be 6 so in the old days for every superstar on 10 point averages there was a wobbler on 2, every 8 point man had a mere 4 point counterpart. Stop making the same mistake as BWitcher. Yes, I agree with what you say, but it has nothing to do with this discussion. Who's mentioned the number of 10-point-men in 1980? Only you. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 All the best Rob Stop making the same mistake as BWitcher. Yes, I agree with what you say, but it has nothing to do with this discussion. Who's mentioned the number of 10-point-men in 1980? Only you. All the best Rob OK, lets run with this one. Earlier you had John Davis in a list of top riders of the day. He never won anything of note on the world stage so on what basis was he any good (or better than Batchelor of today) What is it, if not averages and the number of points JD scored in league racing that sets John Davis into a top rider of 1980?. The point being made is that race formats can be used to engineer lots of so called superstars, likewise they can be used to suppress them 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) OK, lets run with this one. Earlier you had John Davis in a list of top riders of the day. He never won anything of note on the world stage so on what basis was he any good (or better than Batchelor of today) What is it, if not averages and the number of points JD scored in league racing that sets John Davis into a top rider of 1980?. The point being made is that race formats can be used to engineer lots of so called superstars, likewise they can be used to suppress them OK, we'll run with it, if you like. John Davis won the 1980 Daily Express Spring Classic. The meeting had terrestrial television coverage, and contained a World Class line-up. After World Championship rounds, the Internationale and the British League Riders' Championship, it was the biggest date on the calendar. It had been running since 1973, and with regular TV coverage, had quickly become a prestigious meeting. He also scored 9 points in the World Final. He actually had the beating of Michael Lee in his final outing, but decided he didn't want to get in the way of the new champion, and dutifully finished second behind him. All the best Rob Edited November 4, 2015 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) OK, we'll run with it, if you like. John Davis won the 1980 Daily Express Spring Classic. The meeting had terrestrial television coverage, and contained a World Class line-up. After World Championship rounds, the Internationale and the British League Riders' Championship, it was the biggest date on the calendar. He also scored 9 points in the World Final. He actually had the beating of Michael Lee in his final outing, but decided he didn't want to get in the way of the new champion, and dutifully finished second behind him. All the best Rob Edited November 4, 2015 by Oldace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) A world final of that era gave a rider 6 points for doing nothing other than beating the 5 no hopers. So your assertion of John Davis' world class status is 1 individual meeting victory ? Off the top of my head. And it was one of the biggest 12 individual meetings in the world that year e.g. the equivalent of a Grand Prix. He had an outstanding year. It would be interesting to see the list of riders he beat on the World Championship trail - Olsen, Autrey and Mauger at the ICF for starters. Again off the top of my head. Ironically you've picked the one year that JD really was World Class. All the best Rob Edited November 4, 2015 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 OK, we'll run with it, if you like. John Davis won the 1980 Daily Express Spring Classic. The meeting had terrestrial television coverage, and contained a World Class line-up. After World Championship rounds, the Internationale and the British League Riders' Championship, it was the biggest date on the calendar. It had been running since 1973, and with regular TV coverage, had quickly become a prestigious meeting. He also scored 9 points in the World Final. He actually had the beating of Michael Lee in his final outing, but decided he didn't want to get in the way of the new champion, and dutifully finished second behind him. All the best Rob Troy Batchelor won the 2014 ELRC and score 20 out of 21 point in a GP. Truly World Class in 2014. When people look back in years to come they'll be amazed to think we all consider him a pretty ordinary rider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) Troy Batchelor won the 2014 ELRC and score 20 out of 21 point in a GP. Truly World Class in 2014. When people look back in years to come they'll be amazed to think we all consider him a pretty ordinary rider I would be interested to know where Waikeace has Batch ranked for 2014. There were times during that season when he actually performed. Batch of 2015 was almost universally cr*p. When they are demolishing the Abbey and wondering who that bloke still going round the track is, it's Batch completing his final ride of the Swindon v BV play-off match. Although one point is that Batch followed up with 20 points in Denmark with 3 (?) at Cardiff. Whereas JD was a consistent performer in every round of the World Championship of 1980. Hence his presence in the final. All the best Rob Edited November 4, 2015 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 It can, although there's a strong chance that Penhall would have won a Grand Prix series has it be held in 1980, 1981 and 1982. My own personal hunch is that Dave Jessup (if he could have kept the number of e/fs down!!) or Michael Lee would have just edged out Penhall across 1980, but Penhall would have triumphed in both 1981 and 1982. Domestically, Kenny Carter had the edge in 1982, but I'm not sure about internationally. Penhall was, in particular, the dominating force in 1981. I'm not sure if Greg has ever completely dominated a year, although he's certainly been the most consistent in a few. I'm going to plump for Bruce, but I appreciate it's comparing apples with oranges: the rider who achieved the most within a very short career, against a rider with incredible longevity. All the best Rob Stop making the same mistake as BWitcher. Yes, I agree with what you say, but it has nothing to do with this discussion. Who's mentioned the number of 10-point-men in 1980? Only you. All the best Rob It has everything to do with it as it determines how we perceive a rider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) It has everything to do with it as it determines how we perceive a rider. With you, maybe. Not with me. Position in averages is far more interesting than actual average. Look at actual average, and then suddenly lots of ex-NL riders became twice as good in 1965, than they had been in 1964. I don't think they had somehow; more to do with 18 teams in the league rather than 7. All the best Rob Edited November 4, 2015 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) With you, maybe. Not with me. Position in averages is far more interesting than actual average. All the best Rob Which nullifies almost your entire argument.... unless you're going to claim there were more riders in the top 20 in the averages in 1980 than there are in 2015. Who ranked 12th in the averages in 1980? Emil Sayfutdinov was 12th in the Polish league averages...... Off the top of my head. And it was one of the biggest 12 individual meetings in the world that year e.g. the equivalent of a Grand Prix. He had an outstanding year. It would be interesting to see the list of riders he beat on the World Championship trail - Olsen, Autrey and Mauger at the ICF for starters. Again off the top of my head. Ironically you've picked the one year that JD really was World Class. All the best Rob One off meetings here and there don't make you world class. Davis was a decent rider who could sometimes have good meetings. Never in the upper echelon of riders. Gert Handberg was 3rd in the World Final, was he a world class rider?? Absolutely not, not even in the year he managed that. Edited November 4, 2015 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) Which nullifies almost your entire argument.... unless you're going to claim there were more riders in the top 20 in the averages in 1980 than there are in 2015. Who ranked 12th in the averages in 1980? Emil Sayfutdinov was 12th in the Polish league averages...... Dunno? Ole Olsen was about 15th, if I recall correctly. Michael Lee was only sixth. Although again it's subjective at which point in the list you believe the world class riders are starting to dry up for any given year. And while positions in league averages are part of the equation, form in international and major events are far more of that equation. All the best Rob Edited November 4, 2015 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 If you're having Mauger as being World Class in 1980, then Harris is World Class in 2015. Seems you're setting a low bar. Would that be the same Ivan Mauger that spent the majority of the 1980 season as reigning World Champion? Not sure Chris Harris did that in 2015. On the subject of race formats, averages and so on, there are all sorts of factors that bring averages down now. Rae formates, tac sub rides in heat 8, gate positions, nominated riders races and so on. But stick a 1980s Hans Neilsen in amongst all that and I bet he'd still average over 11 with bonus points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Would that be the same Ivan Mauger that spent the majority of the 1980 season as reigning World Champion? Not sure Chris Harris did that in 2015. On the subject of race formats, averages and so on, there are all sorts of factors that bring averages down now. Rae formates, tac sub rides in heat 8, gate positions, nominated riders races and so on. But stick a 1980s Hans Neilsen in amongst all that and I bet he'd still average over 11 with bonus points. Irrelevant. KK spent this year as World No 2. Was he any good? As for Nielsen, a mid 80's Hans Nielsen very likely would still average over 11 with bonus pts, but that's another topic. So would Ivan Mauger at his peak or Ole Olsen at his peak.. or the 1993 Sam Ermolenko etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) Irrelevant. KK spent this year as World No 2. Was he any good? As for Nielsen, a mid 80's Hans Nielsen very likely would still average over 11 with bonus pts, but that's another topic. So would Ivan Mauger at his peak or Ole Olsen at his peak.. or the 1993 Sam Ermolenko etc. Ole Olsen rarely averaged over 11 even at his peak and in the old system, so I doubt he would. Or Ermolenko. Mauger possibly would though. Being World number 2 after the reigning World Champ has realised he's not going to win and has eased off is a million miles from becoming World Champion for the sixth time. Edited November 4, 2015 by grachan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Ole Olsen rarely averaged over 11 even at his peak and in the old system, so I doubt he would. Or Ermolenko. Mauger possibly would though. Being World number 2 after the reigning World Champ has realised he's not going to win and has eased off is a million miles from becoming World Champion for the sixth time. The point is, that was a different year. What happened in 79 is irrelevant to what happened in 80.. likewise 2014 and 2015. Ivan Mauger was world class for almost his entire career, in 1980 he wasn't as good as previous years. That's not diminishing him at all, just the truth. With Ermolenko I said 1993 Ermolenko.. he was 11+ that year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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