waiheke1 Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 top 15 riders in 1980 (according to my rankings) Jessup, Penhall, Lee, Peter Collins, Morton,Autrey, Andersson, Nielsen, Petersen,Sanders,Olsen,Sigalos,Davis, L Collins, Carter. At that time 4 world titles between them (5 including the 80 title) Though of course the likes of Morton, L Collins, Petersen, Davis, Sigalos and Carter would in all probablility not been in the series, would have likely been Mauger (16th), K Moran (19th), Plech (32nd) and then perhaps Ross and Louis/Simmons/Kennett Top 15 riders in 2015: Woffinden, Emil, Hancock, Pedersen, Hampel, Zmarzlik, Ward, Janowski, Iversen, Lindback, Pawlicki, Kolodiej, Kildermand, Vaculik, Doyle. 7 world titles between them (8 including 2015) With the likes of Zagar, Holder, Laguta (x2), Pawlicki, AJ, Pepe outside that top 15. Once again, not all the top 15 riders in the GP series. . I think those two lists are pretty comparable in terms of quality. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Agreed, but even so, its no stronger than now. That will be the case for most eras. Yes, you've put up a list of 15 riders who "could" win a GP. But I've listed 24 from 1980 already, and there are still riders not on that list, who could come in and whip the world's best. I've just thought of one. Les Collins. Not among the 24 riders I've listed, but won the 1980 BLRC in a field worthy of a World Final or a Grand Prix series. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Agreed, but even so, its no stronger than now. That will be the case for most eras. Exactly Colin!! I 100% agree with you and this is in a way where speedway has gone wrong. With the larger league, the top riders meeting less often and bonus pts included in the averages, it created a situation where almost every team had 3 riders of 8+, sometimes 3 of 9+... didn't mean the riders were better, it was just Maths. There were no heat 15's so it was rare we'd see a teams no 1 rider trailing in last in any race which can happen on such a regular basis now. This meant in our heads there were many more superstars than there are now. Was that a good thing? In a way, yes it was! It was more exciting to see these big names we rarely saw get beat. I'll add to that the fact we see them race in so many places now.. GB (those left) Sweden, Poland, GP's, Euro Championships.. thus we're seeing them all beaten on a far more regular basis than ever before.. so they don't have that 'aura' about them. The standard isn't any different... just our perception. wasn't the buzz of the golden helmet fantastic? even that got ruined on its comeback...when it was involved every meeting it lost its appeal... the "golden era" we had a challenger turn up who wasn't even in the nights meeting, just for the golden helmet match race!! thiose challengers were the cream of the crop.. Yes, you've put up a list of 15 riders who "could" win a GP. But I've listed 24 from 1980 already, and there are still riders not on that list, who could come in and whip the world's best. I've just thought of one. Les Collins. Not among the 24 riders I've listed, but won the 1980 BLRC in a field worthy of a World Final or a Grand Prix series. All the best Rob we had our own golden oldie like hancock....john Louis winning the blrc in his 40s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Yes, you've put up a list of 15 riders who "could" win a GP. But I've listed 24 from 1980 already, and there are still riders not on that list, who could come in and whip the world's best. I've just thought of one. Les Collins. Not among the 24 riders I've listed, but won the 1980 BLRC in a field worthy of a World Final or a Grand Prix series. All the best Rob From your list. What big individual meeting did Larry Ross ever win?Bobby Schwartz, John Davis, Finn Thomsen? Can't see any of them winning a GP, in 1980 or any other season. Wheras outside the 22 names I've given you could throw in MJJ, Fast freddie, Batch and others who have shoown the ability to win a GP ona good day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 top 15 riders in 1980 (according to my rankings) Jessup, Penhall, Lee, Peter Collins, Morton,Autrey, Andersson, Nielsen, Petersen,Sanders,Olsen,Sigalos,Davis, L Collins, Carter. At that time 4 world titles between them (5 including the 80 title) Though of course the likes of Morton, L Collins, Petersen, Davis, Sigalos and Carter would in all probablility not been in the series, would have likely been Mauger (16th), K Moran (19th), Plech (32nd) and then perhaps Ross and Louis/Simmons/Kennett Top 15 riders in 2015: Woffinden, Emil, Hancock, Pedersen, Hampel, Zmarzlik, Ward, Janowski, Iversen, Lindback, Pawlicki, Kolodiej, Kildermand, Vaculik, Doyle. 7 world titles between them (8 including 2015) With the likes of Zagar, Holder, Laguta (x2), Pawlicki, AJ, Pepe outside that top 15. Once again, not all the top 15 riders in the GP series. . I think those two lists are pretty comparable in terms of quality. Phew! My list for 1980 was about right then! At this point, it comes down to subjective judgement. I would say that 1980 is superior (although not by as much as I expected it to be), but I understand people who think otherwise. I'm glad we're not looking at the mid-seventies, when I'm sure I could pick a list of British riders only comparable to the standard of the current GP series. At which point, I look at the standard of British riders now (who is your highest ranked Brit after Woffy?) and start to cry. All the best Rob we had our own golden oldie like hancock....john Louis winning the blrc in his 40s Yes, I think he may have actually been 38 or 39 at that point, but another example of the number of riders who could win a "biggie" around that time. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Agreed, saying which list is stronger is highly subjective, but i think most would agree there is not a lot in it. The same would apply if you look at riders from 16-30, or 31-50. Maybe there were slightly more world class riders in 80, maybe there are slightly more now, but reality is that there is very little difference (IMHO). I think it would also be fair to say that al ist from early 80s would be stronger than from latter 80s due to the relatively high number of genuine world title contenders riders who left the sport prematurely at a time they should have been at their peak (Penhall, Sigalos, Sanders, Carter, Lee). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 watching speedway on mainstream tv with household name commentators on world of sport....dickie davies, dave lanning, fred dinage, how did it go so wrong so quickly?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 I don't think it's possible to compare the stars of 1980 to today. Pop quiz, which riders shared the only golden helmet dead heat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 I don't think it's possible to compare the stars of 1980 to today. Pop quiz, which riders shared the only golden helmet dead heat? phil crump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Agreed, saying which list is stronger is highly subjective, but i think most would agree there is not a lot in it. The same would apply if you look at riders from 16-30, or 31-50. Maybe there were slightly more world class riders in 80, maybe there are slightly more now, but reality is that there is very little difference (IMHO). I think it would also be fair to say that al ist from early 80s would be stronger than from latter 80s due to the relatively high number of genuine world title contenders riders who left the sport prematurely at a time they should have been at their peak (Penhall, Sigalos, Sanders, Carter, Lee). Agreed. And the latter is a fair point. The depth in the late 80s did drop a bit. Another factor was the number of American riders who stayed in the States, and therefore their level of performance dropped from where it would have been from having regular European league (which at this point still meant British League) competition. Around 1982, it's scary how many good American riders they were. All the best Rob Pop quiz, which riders shared the only golden helmet dead heat? Bo Petersen and either PC or Mort... er.... I'll guess Mort. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 phil crump? Obviously it's 2 riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Obviously it's 2 riders. crump/Collins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Agreed. And the latter is a fair point. The depth in the late 80s did drop a bit. Another factor was the number of American riders who stayed in the States, and therefore their level of performance dropped from where it would have been from having regular European league (which at this point still meant British League) competition. Around 1982, it's scary how many good American riders they were. All the best Rob Bo Petersen and either PC or Mort... er.... I'll guess Mort. All the best Rob Well done sir! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 in the 80s Australians and Americans would go into the BL and average 8 in their first season. How was the last Aussie to even get 8 in their debut PL season? Ward and Holder before him, then who? The EL is stronger now than ever before. Speedway is stronger now that ever before. I think it was more down to natural talent back then (except for the top few) but I don't think thats enough even for EL boys these days who have to have the kit and work at it. Now when was the last time a rider got 8 in his debut EL season? Holder maybe did it. Lets say 7, riders who got 7 in their first EL season, Holder, Pedersen back in 1999, Cegielski in '03, Zagar in about '07. Yet it seemed to be a semi-regular occurrence in the 70s and 80s for riders to come over and get them sort of figures - how if the standard was so high? You have far less riders these days appear on the scene and just do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 agree with your point SCB, but your opening statement isn't correct. For a start, there weren't any truly decent you ng Aussies in the 80s. Baker, Regeling,Davies were probably the pick of the bunch, and they averaged around 4-5 in their first seasons (would have to look at what Wiltshire averaged in his first season at the tail end of the decase he may have met your criteria). Ermolenko, King, SMoran all averaged around 6.5 in their first seasons, though Siggy and Penhall did average more (that was late 70s). Cook avergaed around 4.5 I think, the likes of Pfetzing and Lucero aroudn that also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 agree with your point SCB, but your opening statement isn't correct. For a start, there weren't any truly decent you ng Aussies in the 80s. Baker, Regeling,Davies were probably the pick of the bunch, and they averaged around 4-5 in their first seasons (would have to look at what Wiltshire averaged in his first season at the tail end of the decase he may have met your criteria). Ermolenko, King, SMoran all averaged around 6.5 in their first seasons, though Siggy and Penhall did average more (that was late 70s). Cook avergaed around 4.5 I think, the likes of Pfetzing and Lucero aroudn that also. think shane parker had decent 1st season, though not ground breaking going back a bit here, but did john boulger have a good 1st season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 in the 80s Australians and Americans would go into the BL and average 8 in their first season. How was the last Aussie to even get 8 in their debut PL season? Ward and Holder before him, then who? The EL is stronger now than ever before. Speedway is stronger now that ever before. I think it was more down to natural talent back then (except for the top few) but I don't think thats enough even for EL boys these days who have to have the kit and work at it. Now when was the last time a rider got 8 in his debut EL season? Holder maybe did it. Lets say 7, riders who got 7 in their first EL season, Holder, Pedersen back in 1999, Cegielski in '03, Zagar in about '07. Yet it seemed to be a semi-regular occurrence in the 70s and 80s for riders to come over and get them sort of figures - how if the standard was so high? You have far less riders these days appear on the scene and just do it. The highest "new entry" in 1980 was Andrzej Huszcza (6.72), a Pole in his mid-twenties who already had a fair amount of experience. Highest genuine newcomer was Shawn Moran (6.15). Although I never centred in this discussion on averages - there's too many differences between the eras. That's not the point. What was the point is the number of genuine world class riders competing across the globe and whether that number has increased or decreased, and whether therefore it was tougher to win two World Finals in 1981 and 1982 than three GPs in 1997, 2011 and 2014. All the best Rob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 TBh, I'm not sure even that is the point Rob is you are assessing who was better Penhall or Hancock. I think there is not much difference in standard of achievement. The argument for Penhall is that he retired in his prime, and would almost certainly have added to his world titles had he cotinued. Whereas Hancock has redfined longevity at the top level. Which you rank higher is probably dependent on whether you place a higher value on peak ability and "potential" or on sustained excellence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) It was a hell of a lot easier to be considered a world class rider back in the day for the reasons I stated earlier. A hell of a lot easier to get into the sport. A hell of a lot easier to ride the bikes. The sport is infinitely more professional now, in particular in Sweden and Poland, it is light years ahead of the standard in the 80's. In no circumstance would you ever, even in the tailored down Elite League, have a rider turn up to a practice for his first ever ride and be in a team within weeks... which happened quite often back in the 70's. Why? Because it's a lot harder. Edited November 3, 2015 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 TBh, I'm not sure even that is the point Rob is you are assessing who was better Penhall or Hancock. I think there is not much difference in standard of achievement. The argument for Penhall is that he retired in his prime, and would almost certainly have added to his world titles had he cotinued. Whereas Hancock has redfined longevity at the top level. Which you rank higher is probably dependent on whether you place a higher value on peak ability and "potential" or on sustained excellence. I'm still going for Juicey Brucey. Only nine riders have won back-to-back titles... it's extremely hard to do. But yes it's tricky when it's not comparing like with like. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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