lucifer sam Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 are you living in some alternate universe rob? Nobody has said the current EL is tougher than the BL in 1980. I stated that there weren't many more world class riders in 1980 than there are now. Your way of proving that is how many 9 pt men there were, which is ENTIRELY format dependant. As for Emil he would be nowhere near 11 in the current EL. 10 at best. Did I? Where exactly? All I mentioned was that nearly every World Class rider was competing in the 1980 British League. Are you really claiming that was the case in 2015? All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) The format has little to do with it. It has nothing to do with the overall calibre of the league. Noone is saying the current EL is as stong as the old BL. Format does impact significantly on how "tough" a league is though for certain riders. In 1980, almost every top rider in the world rode in the British League. In 2015, I'd say around a fifth of the top riders ride in the Elite League. No, over a third of the top 20 riders in the world rode in the EL in 2015, and half of the worlds top 50 riders. 1980 is therefore, by definition, tougher. Another point: tactical subs. A heat leader could often spend the latter half of a meeting with some exceptionally difficult rides, if additional heat leaders were thrown in against him. And we're talking proper heat leaders. Yes. But still, not mathematically as tough as the cureent EL. Regardless, none of this answers Bwitchers argument about the number of world class riders in 1980 vs 2015. Unless you mean racing in Britain, in which case there is not even a debate, no-one would argue there are more wolrld class riders racing in britain today.But that would be irrelevant to discussion on achievements of Penhall vs Hancock All the best Rob Modern-day Poland is different: a very, very tough league. Similar to the British (Super) League of 1985, where some very good riders ended up with some very average averages!! Put Emil in the current EL, and he'd average 11.00+ no problem. All the best Rob There was no more 'genuine' world class opposition around in the 80's than there is now. Far more world class opposition. Look out 1980. So many world class riders, that reigning champion Ivan Mauger failed to reach the final and Ole Olsen was only reserve too. All the best Rob This is what you said Rob, in case you've forgotten. what grounds do you use to base this claim on? Edited November 3, 2015 by waihekeaces1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 The reality is, due to league size and race format plus bog standard riders at the bottom end of teams it was rare you saw heat leaders drop more than a couple of pts in a meet. Hence you consider them as world class, Throw in the fact bonuses were included in averages too. The worlds best riders are now far more condensed into teams in Poland and Sweden. As a result those riders who are good, but not world class get beat far more often so are judged to be of a lower standard compared to similar riders in past eras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 If it's the fact that Olsen and Mauger didn't make the world final, look at some who did: Davis, Thomsen, Ondrasik, Dryml, Stancl, Nieme, Plech. Decent riders sure, but hardly better than most current GP riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Did I? Where exactly? All I mentioned was that nearly every World Class rider was competing in the 1980 British League. Are you really claiming that was the case in 2015? All the best Rob For about the fifth time, I've never said anything of the sort, you've invented it. Now you can either discuss the topic at hand, or you can troll for a reaction. There's a good debate that could be had here and waihheke is providing some brilliant analysis, sadly you seem hell bent on acting like. Child, very sad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 If it's the fact that Olsen and Mauger didn't make the world final, look at some who did: Davis, Thomsen, Ondrasik, Dryml, Stancl, Nieme, Plech. Decent riders sure, but hardly better than most current GP riders. Name one of those riders who couldn't complete four laps on a wet track. The current World No 12 can't. I'd argue there were probably more skilled riders than him in the National League in 1980. In fact, I know they were. I recall several meetings held at Oxford in the pouring rain and yet the riders could handle it. Unlike a 2015 Elite League No 1. All the best Rob For about the fifth time, I've never said anything of the sort, you've invented it. Now you can either discuss the topic at hand, or you can troll for a reaction. There's a good debate that could be had here and waihheke is providing some brilliant analysis, sadly you seem hell bent on acting like. Child, very sad! Stop the insults - it does nothing for a meaningful debate. All the best Rob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Name one of those riders who couldn't complete four laps on a wet track. The current World No 12 can't. I'd argue there were probably more skilled riders than him in the National League in 1980. In fact, I know they were. I recall several meetings held at Oxford in the pouring rain and yet the riders could handle it. Unlike a 2015 Elite League No 1. All the best Rob Final confirmation that you're trolling, sad you have to be so childish, but it really does show you have nothing to back up your original statement, Glad you've accepted you're wrong though, we can move on now, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Final confirmation that you're trolling, sad you have to be so childish, but it really does show you have nothing to back up your original statement, Glad you've accepted you're wrong though, we can move on now, BWitcher, is it impossible for you to have a sensible discussion without resorting to insulting the other person? All the best Rob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) BWitcher, is it impossible for you to have a sensible discussion without resorting to insulting the other person? All the best Rob I haven't insulted you. I've quite rightly stated you are making things up and posting like a child, spoiling what could be a good debate. Whatever floats your boat I suppose. Edited November 3, 2015 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Name one of those riders who couldn't complete four laps on a wet track. The current World No 12 can't. I'd argue there were probably more skilled riders than him in the National League in 1980. In fact, I know they were. I recall several meetings held at Oxford in the pouring rain and yet the riders could handle it. Unlike a 2015 Elite League No 1. I'd back Batch over Ondrasik on any track! Would add also that my rankings put Batch outside the top 40 in the workd. Riders in the 80s had different skills, I would say more meetings were run on wet tracks than today. anyway, back to the point: On what grounds do you believe there were more world class riders in 1980 than today? Do you really think those riders I listed as 40-50th in the world were world class? Or the riders 40-50th in the BL averages were? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 If it's the fact that Olsen and Mauger didn't make the world final, look at some who did: Davis, Thomsen, Ondrasik, Dryml, Stancl, Nieme, Plech. Decent riders sure, but hardly better than most current GP riders. totally agree with this particular post.....but...if we still had the old system, I have no doubt the final line up wouldn't look like the current field is now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 When someone is acting like a child, I will say so. Grow up and discuss like an adult. So when someone makes a statement you don't agree with they are "acting like a child"? We were having a sensible discussion until you decided to start hurling around the insults. I believe the skill level of the modern-speedway rider has slipped, probably thanks to the rocket-ship lay downs, which require the riders to hang on, rather than develop as much trackcraft. It's why I believe the ultra-skilled Woffy will clean up for a few years to come, especially when Greg & Nicki retire and if Emil doesn't see sense. All the best Rob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) Stop the insults - it does nothing for a meaningful debate. All the best Rob Neither does inventing things.. Try sticking to the debate and answering the question waihheke has asked you three times now instead of your childish posts. You know exactly what you're doing. So when someone makes a statement you don't agree with they are "acting like a child"? We were having a sensible discussion until you decided to start hurling around the insults. I believe the skill level of the modern-speedway rider has slipped, probably thanks to the rocket-ship lay downs, which require the riders to hang on, rather than develop as much trackcraft. It's why I believe the ultra-skilled Woffy will clean up for a few years to come, especially when Greg & Nicki retire and if Emil doesn't see sense. All the best Rob No, it's when you change what is being debated to suit your purpose and invent what has been said, despite being corrected numerous times you continue with it. As regards the skill level of the modern rider... In the past you could pop along to a practice, have your first ride on a bike and be in a team within weeks, happened many times as riders have said in interviews in backtrack. Absolutely NO chance of that happening now. None at all. Edited November 3, 2015 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 totally agree with this particular post.....but...if we still had the old system, I have no doubt the final line up wouldn't look like the current field is now no, it would be weaker, as the old system meant one bad meeting, a poorly timed injury and you were out. the current system generally ensures the majority of the field are in the top 20 or so riders in the world, though of course you get the odd abberation like KK who slipped from being world number 2 to not even in the best 100 riders in 2015. It would end up stronger than the old fields though, because there is a pretty even spread of talent between riders who would come through the old "overseas final" the :"nordic final" and the continental final routes, wheras in the 80s you had 5 riders guaranteed a spot of whom generall at least 4 were sub-standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) totally agree with this particular post.....but...if we still had the old system, I have no doubt the final line up wouldn't look like the current field is now Good point Colin. Turning your argument on its head for a moment, and looking at a possible 1980 Grand Prix series... The line-up could have been: Ivan Mauger Michael Lee Ole Olsen Peter Collins Dave Jessup Billy Sanders Zenon Plech Kelly Moran Jan Andersson Bruce Penhall Chris Morton Hans Nielsen Scott Autrey John Davis Phil Crump Or any of these could have been in: Bo Petersen Bobby Schwartz Gordon Kennett Dennis Sigalos Malcolm Simmons Larry Ross John Louis Edward Jancarz Finn Thomsen I've probably missed a big name or two as well. It's not possible to match that sort of list in 2015. There's no way the likes of Batchelor, THJ and although it pains me to say it (because I love watching him race) Harris, would have got near a GP series in 1980. All the best Rob Edited November 3, 2015 by lucifer sam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) Ah the benefit of hindsight. Brilliant isn't it. It's easy to match that list now based upon the level of those riders in 1980. Waiheke will no doubt do so. Here's just a rough list of the top of my head in no particular order Tai Woffinden Emil Sayfutdinov Greg Hancock Nicki Pedersen Patryk Dudek Niels Kristian Iversen Maciej Janowski Chris Holder Matej Zagar Jason Doyle Peter Kildemand Martin Vaculik Gregorij Laguta Piotr Pawlicki Bartosz Zmarzlik All 15 of those could win a GP. In your 15, about 5 of them wouldn't get near. Current list is stronger (and its prob not even the strongest). Edited November 3, 2015 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Good point Colin. Turning your argument on its head for a moment, and looking at a possible 1980 Grand Prix series... The line-up could have been: Ivan Mauger Michael Lee Ole Olsen Peter Collins Dave Jessup Billy Sanders Zenon Plech Kelly Moran Jan Andersson Bruce Penhall Chris Morton Hans Nielsen Scott Autrey John Davis Phil Crump Or any of these could have been in: Bo Petersen Bobby Schwartz Gordon Kennett Dennis Sigalos Malcolm Simmons Larry Ross John Louis Edward Jancarz Finn Thomsen I've probably missed a big name or two as well. It's not possible to match that sort of list in 2015. There's no way the likes of Batchelor, THJ and although it pains me to say it (because I love watching him race) Harris, would have got near a GP series in 1980. All the best Rob 8 English riders in your choice list!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Ah the benefit of hindsight. Brilliant isn't it. It's easy to match that list now based upon the level of those riders in 1980. Waiheke will no doubt do so. I tried not to "cheat" and picked the riders on their level in 1979 or 1980. Hence no Erik Gundersen, Tommy Knudsen, Kenny Carter, etc. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 I would actually agree bw with your field being stronger....this point im making could be due to my age at the time, but when I was watching speedway in the 70s/80s, Olsen, Mauger, Briggs, Michanek, always felt a buzz going to watch them.. cant quite say the same with the current crop, but do agree that most of todays list "could" win a gp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) I tried not to "cheat" and picked the riders on their level in 1979 or 1980. Hence no Erik Gundersen, Tommy Knudsen, Kenny Carter, etc. All the best Rob Agreed, but even so, its no stronger than now. That will be the case for most eras. I would actually agree bw with your field being stronger....this point im making could be due to my age at the time, but when I was watching speedway in the 70s/80s, Olsen, Mauger, Briggs, Michanek, always felt a buzz going to watch them.. cant quite say the same with the current crop, but do agree that most of todays list "could" win a gp Exactly Colin!! I 100% agree with you and this is in a way where speedway has gone wrong. With the larger league, the top riders meeting less often and bonus pts included in the averages, it created a situation where almost every team had 3 riders of 8+, sometimes 3 of 9+... didn't mean the riders were better, it was just Maths. There were no heat 15's so it was rare we'd see a teams no 1 rider trailing in last in any race which can happen on such a regular basis now. This meant in our heads there were many more superstars than there are now. Was that a good thing? In a way, yes it was! It was more exciting to see these big names we rarely saw get beat. I'll add to that the fact we see them race in so many places now.. GB (those left) Sweden, Poland, GP's, Euro Championships.. thus we're seeing them all beaten on a far more regular basis than ever before.. so they don't have that 'aura' about them. The standard isn't any different... just our perception. Edited November 3, 2015 by BWitcher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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