Greg Hancock

[SteveEvans]

 

I would like to think that a new generation USA GP rider will come to fruition..... but the pool of young talented USa riders is quite small and probably not likely for a few years...

 

Its not exactly like Denmark or Poland yet but the USA production line is at its best for 2 decades right now, largely down to around 7 riders aged 16-18 from Billy Hamill's Academies graduating onto 500cc bikes within a year of each other. Having so many young guys graduate at the same time is great as they are all making each other better. When the likes of Fisher and Wells graduated to 500s they were one lone rider and didn't have peers to lift them up.

[CB252]

one has to say that Greg is the best ever American Speedway rider.

 

One could say it, but they would be incorrect.

 

Penhall rode in just three World Finals (80,81 and 82) and won two of them, in an era where there was genuine world class opposition. In his short career he probably won as many domestic and international titles as Hancock has in nigh on 30 years.

[lucifer sam]

How old was Per Olaf Serenius when he won his last Ice Racing WC?

 

Posa was 54.

 

International licenses expired at 55, but the rules were changed, because there would have been uproar to tell the reigning world champion that he's too old!!

 

All the best

Rob

 

One could say it, but they would be incorrect.

 

Penhall rode in just three World Finals (80,81 and 82) and won two of them, in an era where there was genuine world class opposition. In his short career he probably won as many domestic and international titles as Hancock has in nigh on 30 years.

 

It's subjective and down to opinion, though.

 

I would say Penhall, as well, but Hancock is not an incorrect answer. It's someone's opinion, just as some people would say the best-ever American is Jack Milne or Scott Autrey and so on.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited November 3, 2015 by lucifer sam

[BWitcher]

 

One could say it, but they would be incorrect.

 

Penhall rode in just three World Finals (80,81 and 82) and won two of them, in an era where there was genuine world class opposition. In his short career he probably won as many domestic and international titles as Hancock has in nigh on 30 years.

 

There was no more 'genuine' world class opposition around in the 80's than there is now.

[sommelier]

Although not racing regularly, Sam Ermolenko still takes part in a few meetings a year.

 

If it weren't for the accumulation of injuries he suffered he'd almost certainly still be racing full time.

 

He'll be 55 in 3 weeks time.

 

Darcy Ward and Maciej Janowski two of his scalps in his 50's

Sam, tell you what BW, you would never believe he is 55 how good he looked riding at Swindon the other week

[customhouseregular]

Not too sure I would agree with that statement BW.

[lucifer sam]

 

There was no more 'genuine' world class opposition around in the 80's than there is now.

 

Far more world class opposition. Look out 1980. So many world class riders, that reigning champion Ivan Mauger failed to reach the final and Ole Olsen was only reserve too.

 

All the best

Rob

[BWitcher]

 

Far more world class opposition. Look out 1980. So many world class riders, that reigning champion Ivan Mauger failed to reach the final and Ole Olsen was only reserve too.

 

All the best

Rob

 

No there wasn't.

 

Absolute and utter nonsense to suggest there was.

 

Peter Kildemand can make GP finals, but he couldn't qualify for the GP's on merit, in a field not containing most of the Worlds best.

 

You only think they were all stars because of the format you saw them race in. That's all.

 

Throw them into a format such as the Polish or Swedish League or even more so, stick them in an EL format and 50% of those 9pt men you thought were 'stars' become 7pt men and you think they're mediocre.

[waiheke1]

look at tge 1980 world finsl line up and tell me tgat ut was stronger than a modern day gp. no way.

81 was an excellent field, but at the time only olsen (3) and lee(1) had won a world title. thats identical to what greg faced last year.

i 80 and 82 only pc of penhalls rivals had been world chsmp.

for the record i rate penhall higher thsn greg

[lucifer sam]

 

No there wasn't.

 

Absolute and utter nonsense to suggest there was.

 

Peter Kildemand can make GP finals, but he couldn't qualify for the GP's on merit, in a field not containing most of the Worlds best.

 

You only think they were all stars because of the format you saw them race in. That's all.

 

Throw them into a format such as the Polish or Swedish League or even more so, stick them in an EL format and 50% of those 9pt men you thought were 'stars' become 7pt men and you think they're mediocre.

 

You're saying the likes of Mauger and Olsen would only be mediocre riders in the current Elite League?

 

Really????? What are you on???

 

All the best

Rob

Edited November 3, 2015 by lucifer sam

[The White Knight]

 

You're saying Mauger and Olsen would only be mediocre riders in the current Elite League?

 

Really????? What are you on???

 

All the best

Ro

You were so startled by that comment Rob - you left the 'B' off the end of your name. :rofl:

 

For what it is worth I totally agree with you.

[lucifer sam]

You were so startled by that comment Rob - you left the 'B' off the end of your name. :rofl:

 

For what it is worth I totally agree with you.

 

Now corrected.

 

I'm just wondering how BWitcher reckons the current Elite League, which probably contains around 10-15 of the top 50 riders in the world is tougher than the 1980 British League, which contained around 45-48 of the top 50 riders in the world.

 

All the best

Rob

[waiheke1]

 

Now corrected.

 

I'm just wondering how BWitcher reckons the current Elite League, which probably contains around 10-15 of the top 50 riders in the world is tougher than the 1980 British League, which contained around 45-48 of the top 50 riders in the world.

 

All the best

Rob

 

He's not saying theEL is tougher now. He is saying it is tougher for a heat leader.

In 1980 the "average" BL side would have a wolrd top 20 rider as a number one, 2 heat leaders ranked in the top 50 in the world, two second strings ranked in the top 100, and two reserves ranked outside the top 100. A numnber one would meet in a typical meeting: 1 number one, 3 heat leaders, 7 second strings, one reserve. (including his team mates):

 

Using the above criteria and my statistical ranking system: The EL in 2015 contained 6 riders of "number one" calibre (I'm counting Ward/Kildermand as one rider, as they never rode for Swindon at the same time), 14 riders of heat leader quality and 14 of second string quality. So an average a side would have 0.75 numbe rone, 1.75 hear leader, 1.75 second string, 2.75 riders of reserve standard. Slightly weaker than in 1980, but not a lot (i would say the top sides are now a lot weaker, the average sides about the same, the weakest sides slightly stronger).

 

But a number one would now come up against a number one quality rider 3 times, heatleaders 8 times, second strings 4 times. Taking into account the slight diminishment in quality of the EL, he'ss till coming up against a rider of number one standard 2.25 times, a heatleader quality rider 7 times, a second string 3.5 times, and a reserve quality rider 2.25 times. So well over half the other riders in his races are heat leaders or better quality, compared to only a third in 1980.

 

So it's fair to say that Mauger and Olsen (the 1980 versions remember, where Mauger was only just a 9 point man and arguably neither was a top 10 in the world rider), would have averaged around 7 in the current EL (exclduing bonus points).

[BWitcher]

You're saying the likes of Mauger and Olsen would only be mediocre riders in the current Elite League?

 

Really????? What are you on???

 

All the best

Rob

No,that is something you've made up.

 

Usual when you can't argue the actual point.

You were so startled by that comment Rob - you left the 'B' off the end of your name. :rofl:

 

For what it is worth I totally agree with you.

You totally agree with a made up point? Brilliant.

Now corrected.

 

I'm just wondering how BWitcher reckons the current Elite League, which probably contains around 10-15 of the top 50 riders in the world is tougher than the 1980 British League, which contained around 45-48 of the top 50 riders in the world.

 

All the best

Rob

And yet more made up nonsense!

[lucifer sam]

 

He's not saying theEL is tougher now. He is saying it is tougher for a heat leader.

In 1980 the "average" BL side would have a wolrd top 20 rider as a number one, 2 heat leaders ranked in the top 50 in the world, two second strings ranked in the top 100, and two reserves ranked outside the top 100. A numnber one would meet in a typical meeting: 1 number one, 3 heat leaders, 7 second strings, one reserve. (including his team mates):

 

Using the above criteria and my statistical ranking system: The EL in 2015 contained 6 riders of "number one" calibre (I'm counting Ward/Kildermand as one rider, as they never rode for Swindon at the same time), 14 riders of heat leader quality and 14 of second string quality. So an average a side would have 0.75 numbe rone, 1.75 hear leader, 1.75 second string, 2.75 riders of reserve standard. Slightly weaker than in 1980, but not a lot (i would say the top sides are now a lot weaker, the average sides about the same, the weakest sides slightly stronger).

 

But a number one would now come up against a number one quality rider 3 times, heatleaders 8 times, second strings 4 times. Taking into account the slight diminishment in quality of the EL, he'ss till coming up against a rider of number one standard 2.25 times, a heatleader quality rider 7 times, a second string 3.5 times, and a reserve quality rider 2.25 times. So well over half the other riders in his races are heat leaders or better quality, compared to only a third in 1980.

 

So it's fair to say that Mauger and Olsen (the 1980 versions remember, where Mauger was only just a 9 point man and arguably neither was a top 10 in the world rider), would have averaged around 7 in the current EL (exclduing bonus points).

 

But the above argument falls down when you consider the number of World Class riders in the modern day Elite League. In 1980, most of the 17 BL sides had three World class riders (it's not an exact science: some teams had one or two, others four or five).

 

They are almost non-existent the current EL. For example, Swindon had a No 1 in the play-offs who couldn't complete four laps on a wet track. A rider like that wouldn't have been a second string in 1980, yet alone a No 1.

 

Yes, the current EL format does pitch heat leaders against heat leaders. But when those heat leaders are weak, it's not that tough.

 

1980 (around 50 World class riders in BL - around three per team)

No 1 rider met No 1,3 and 5 a total of five times - meets five world class riders in four outings

 

2015 (around 10 world class riders in EL - around one per team)

No 1 rider meets opposing No 1 three times - meets three world class riders in five outings

 

1980 was tougher.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited November 3, 2015 by lucifer sam

[BWitcher]

But the above argument falls down when you consider the number of World Class riders in the modern day Elite League. In 1980, most of the 17 BL sides had three World class riders (it's not an exact science: some teams had one or two, others four or five).

 

They are almost non-existent the current EL. For example, Swindon had a No 1 in the play-offs who couldn't ride a wet track. A rider like that wouldn't have been a second string in 1980, yet alone a No 1.

 

Yes, the current EL format does pitch heat leaders against heat leaders. But when those heat leaders are weak, it's not that tough.

 

1980 (50 World class riders in BL - three per team)

No 1 rider met No 1,3 and 5 a total of five times - meets five world class riders in four outings

 

2015 heat format (10 world class riders in EL - one per team)

No 1 rider meets opposing No 1 three times - meets three world class riders in five outings

 

1980 was tougher.

 

All the best

Rob

This isn't even the argument. You're desperately trying (and failing) to prove your point there were more world class riders in that period by introducing something totally different.

 

I have made no comparisons to the current elite league, only the format. Take the group of riders in the 80's, place them into a league with 8 teams and the current format and that's what you watch season after season you wouldn't think there were anywhere near as many world class riders.

 

If you want to make a comparison compare with the polish league where the teams are miles stronger.. As in Sweden.

Edited November 3, 2015 by BWitcher

[waiheke1]

Rob - you've conveniently ignored all the analysis I did in the quoted post which shows the calibre of a rider an EL rider meets?

and look at what some very good riders average in poland, where you have most of the worlds top riders in an 8 team league

[lucifer sam]

This isn't even the argument. You're desperately trying (and failing) to prove your point there were more world class riders in that period by introducing something totally different.

 

I have made no comparisons to the current elite league, only the format. Take the group of riders in the 80's, place them into a league with 8 teams and the current format and that's what you watch season after season you wouldn't think there were anywhere near as many world class riders.

 

The format has little to do with it.

 

In 1980, almost every top rider in the world rode in the British League. In 2015, I'd say around a fifth of the top riders ride in the Elite League.

 

1980 is therefore, by definition, tougher. Another point: tactical subs. A heat leader could often spend the latter half of a meeting with some exceptionally difficult rides, if additional heat leaders were thrown in against him. And we're talking proper heat leaders.

 

All the best

Rob

Rob - you've conveniently ignored all the analysis I did in the quoted post which shows the calibre of a rider an EL rider meets?

and look at what some very good riders average in poland, where you have most of the worlds top riders in an 8 team league

 

Modern-day Poland is different: a very, very tough league. Similar to the British (Super) League of 1985, where some very good riders ended up with some very average averages!!

 

Put Emil in the current EL, and he'd average 11.00+ no problem.

 

All the best

Rob

[BWitcher]

The format has little to do with it.

 

In 1980, almost every top rider in the world rode in the British League. In 2015, I'd say around a fifth of the top riders ride in the Elite League.

 

1980 is therefore, by definition, tougher. Another point: tactical subs. A heat leader could often spend the latter half of a meeting with some exceptionally difficult rides, if additional heat leaders were thrown in against him. And we're talking proper heat leaders.

 

All the best

Rob

 

Modern-day Poland is different: a very, very tough league. Similar to the British (Super) League of 1985, where some very good riders ended up with some very average averages!!

 

Put Emil in the current EL, and he'd average 11.00+ no problem.

 

All the best

Rob

are you living in some alternate universe rob?

 

Nobody has said the current EL is tougher than the BL in 1980.

 

I stated that there weren't many more world class riders in 1980 than there are now. Your way of proving that is how many 9 pt men there were, which is ENTIRELY format dependant.

 

As for Emil he would be nowhere near 11 in the current EL. 10 at best.

Edited November 3, 2015 by BWitcher

[waiheke1]

Rob - you've aslo said in 1980 there were 50 world class riders in the BL. Let's have a look at a list of riders ranked 41-50 in the world in 1980 according to my ranking system):

Rob Maxfeild, Bob kilby, Egon Muller, Joe Owen, Andy Grahame, Vaclav Verner, Steve Gresham, Doug Wyer, Ales Dryml, Reg Wilson. You'd be stretching to call any of those world class at that point in time (possible exception egon).

In 2015 my list is:

Anders Thomsen, Peter Ljung, Chris Harris, Damian Balinski, Troy Batchelor, Scott Nicholls, Maksim Bogdanov, Robert Lamber, Peter Karlsson, Edward Kennet.

Again, not world class, but certainly comparable to the list from 1980, I would argue stronger.

 

You can do the same with riders ranked 30-40 and get similar results, though of course there is a natural bias towards the 80s list as you could look at someone like erig Gundersen (27th) and say Look a future 3 times world chanmp at 27! But at thst stage he was just a very promising youngster. Or Malcom Simmons at 24th, but not take into account that this was a rider who was no longer an england regular and wouldn't get close to making a world final appearance that decade.