Big Al Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 What !! No loop holes ???? Now why couldn't the BSPA have done something along similar lines. So straight forward, so self-explanatory and everyone would see a clear situation of fairness. Just proves what can be done, with the right application.......... Well done that man........ And how very interesting that 8 (teams) x 3 (heatleaders per team) = 24 Rider no.24 is Edward Kennett, with an average just above the mooted 6.50 criteria for counting as heatleaders! However, with rider withdrawals and retirements certain among the 1-24, that group will need to be topped-up by the same number of new arrivals/returners, and/or lowering the heatleader threshold average? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A ORLOV Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 And how very interesting that 8 (teams) x 3 (heatleaders per team) = 24 Rider no.24 is Edward Kennett, with an average just above the mooted 6.50 criteria for counting as heatleaders! However, with rider withdrawals and retirements certain among the 1-24, that group will need to be topped-up by the same number of new arrivals/returners, and/or lowering the heatleader threshold average? Which will make it interesting if a few new riders from abroad come in as tier 1 riders and some at the end of the tier 1 list cannot be signed as all teams already have their three riders. What then would happen to a rider like Kennett. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocha Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 And how very interesting that 8 (teams) x 3 (heatleaders per team) = 24 Rider no.24 is Edward Kennett, with an average just above the mooted 6.50 criteria for counting as heatleaders! However, with rider withdrawals and retirements certain among the 1-24, that group will need to be topped-up by the same number of new arrivals/returners, and/or lowering the heatleader threshold average? I believe 8 x 3 has been 24 since the dawn of time! Ed might be 24th just by using final averages (his is 5.86 BTW) but that is not the object of the excercise. It is to evaluate the performance of riders over the course of last season and specifically those who have alternated between heat leader and second string. I have no idea which method is to be used but one way would be to compare monthly averages achieved in both categories then adjust accordingly. The 6.50 figure seems to have become something of a red herring. It only applies to overseas riders entering our EL for the first time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted October 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 Thanks to CVS in the Speedway Star we now know a bit more. The heat leader list has already been agreed by all 8 promotions & he doesn't know if it will be made public. The reserves will still be subject to a 2 round draft with tier 1 having 12 riders & the 4 unselected joining tier 2. They'll be signed on 60% of their PL average. All GSAs are going to be calculated every 4 matches rather than monthly. Only just seen this, missed it earlier. It cannot be done as a draft now. i the past you picked your first rider in a pre-defined order and then the 2nd rider based on your first. The theory being if you had a good rider in 1 you got a poorer rider in 2. Fine. But now if you get a better rider in draft 1, you use up more points in the points limit, so to then get a worse tier two rider you are punished. It should just be all teams have to have a tier 1 and a tier 2 rider. It should NOT be a draft. If it is a draft, I hope Coventry get Garrity to ride in the 1-5 and pick lower down the draft so they get two middle of the road riders rather than a good and a bad one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 I believe 8 x 3 has been 24 since the dawn of time! Ed might be 24th just by using final averages (his is 5.86 BTW) but that is not the object of the excercise. It is to evaluate the performance of riders over the course of last season and specifically those who have alternated between heat leader and second string. I have no idea which method is to be used but one way would be to compare monthly averages achieved in both categories then adjust accordingly. The 6.50 figure seems to have become something of a red herring. It only applies to overseas riders entering our EL for the first time. It was just an interesting co-incidence, nothing more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_Jones Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 Only just seen this, missed it earlier. It cannot be done as a draft now. i the past you picked your first rider in a pre-defined order and then the 2nd rider based on your first. The theory being if you had a good rider in 1 you got a poorer rider in 2. Fine. But now if you get a better rider in draft 1, you use up more points in the points limit, so to then get a worse tier two rider you are punished. It should just be all teams have to have a tier 1 and a tier 2 rider. It should NOT be a draft. If it is a draft, I hope Coventry get Garrity to ride in the 1-5 and pick lower down the draft so they get two middle of the road riders rather than a good and a bad one. I assumed the same, but they are using a draft. There isn't a direct quote on this from CVS but Paul Burbidge's exact words are: "There will be 12 riders in the tier one draft, with the four not selected eligible to be chosen when the tier two picks are made, ensuring the best Fast Track stars are given every chance of getting a job". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen chemistry Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 wont the protected draft riders from last yr still be protected.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 scb any chancecu coukd post a table comparing yoyr weighted averages to officiak greenshets. ti show variance in absokute or percentage terns as an example swindon fans ate ckamouring to sign zengivand ditch batch, but your stats show batchvis the better signing by about 2 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) As its still not clear what the cut-off point for heat leaders is to be, plus we also don't know how many other foreign riders may want to race EL at 6.5+, won't this mean the risk of some 'heat leaders' not getting an EL place and consequently not being able to ne a 2nd string either?! Or does the BSPA heat leader list only include 24 riders to start with? Edited October 23, 2015 by Skidder1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted October 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 scb any chancecu coukd post a table comparing yoyr weighted averages to officiak greenshets. ti show variance in absokute or percentage terns as an example swindon fans ate ckamouring to sign zengivand ditch batch, but your stats show batchvis the better signing by about 2 points. I'll have a look later. As its still not clear what the cut-off point for heat leaders is to be, plus we also don't know how many other foreign riders may want to race EL at 6.5+, won't this mean the risk of some 'heat leaders' not getting an EL place and consequently not being able to ne a 2nd string either?! Or does the BSPA heat leader list only include 24 riders to start with? Just another case of some messed up thinking by the BSPA and why weighting riders based on their riding position makes more sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 As its still not clear what the cut-off point for heat leaders is to be, plus we also don't know how many other foreign riders may want to race EL at 6.5+, won't this mean the risk of some 'heat leaders' not getting an EL place and consequently not being able to ne a 2nd string either?! Or does the BSPA heat leader list only include 24 riders to start with? As you were one of those who accused me of Scare-Mongering, when these average differentials was first implemented. It's nice that you can now see problems, that was always gong to happen when trying to make comparisons between riders. The hole has been dug. Instead of making it bigger, the BSPA, should take SCB ( the Poster, not the organisation) idea on board and accept it as a way out....... The HL list is yet a another stupid idea. There cant be a cut off point without creating many problems. Like you say if a rider is grouped as a HL and hasn't got a team place, surely he wont be allowed to ride as a second string, then its goodbye to a rider who wants to race over here. What about the rider who is just below the cut off point, when he increases his average, will he be than classed as a HL. Yet another, unnecessary problem Using SCB's list, or something similar, would be so simple. The Team Managers can then select the riders from the list, to the Point limit allowed. Why do we need a HL Group, why do we need Draft scheme. we just want it the way it always was...... All the best ideas are simply ones..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 And how very interesting that 8 (teams) x 3 (heatleaders per team) = 24 Rider no.24 is Edward Kennett, with an average just above the mooted 6.50 criteria for counting as heatleaders! However, with rider withdrawals and retirements certain among the 1-24, that group will need to be topped-up by the same number of new arrivals/returners, and/or lowering the heatleader threshold average? tge whole point of creating a heat leader list and a second string list is that it wont simply be the top 24 are heat leaders.You will get riders on the heat leader list with higher averages than some on the second string list because they rode solely in one category and their average has skewed accordingly. Zengota a good example ended 7.79 and No1 in team list but I think he had no meetings as a heat leader. I would grade him a second string still. The fun will be where those yoyo riders are placed and who that benefits....... As you were one of those who accused me of Scare-Mongering, when these average differentials was first implemented. It's nice that you can now see problems, that was always gong to happen when trying to make comparisons between riders. The hole has been dug. Instead of making it bigger, the BSPA, should take SCB ( the Poster, not the organisation) idea on board and accept it as a way out....... The HL list is yet a another stupid idea. There cant be a cut off point without creating many problems. Like you say if a rider is grouped as a HL and hasn't got a team place, surely he wont be allowed to ride as a second string, then its goodbye to a rider who wants to race over here. What about the rider who is just below the cut off point, when he increases his average, will he be than classed as a HL. Yet another, unnecessary problem Using SCB's list, or something similar, would be so simple. The Team Managers can then select the riders from the list, to the Point limit allowed. Why do we need a HL Group, why do we need Draft scheme. we just want it the way it always was...... All the best ideas are simply ones..... if you revert back to the traditional race fornat then the lists can be discarded once the impact of previous skewing drops out of the rolling averages.Given the fact that tier 1 can now move into the 1-5 there is no reason to retain the changed format. If the feel the No7 needs some protection make it that the heat 8 2/7 is set and the tier 2 cant be replaced in that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) I'll have a look later. Just another case of some messed up thinking by the BSPA and why weighting riders based on their riding position makes more sense. My point is that its still not 'set in stone'. As at least 2 promoters have already commented in the SS, there are already some known issues which will be addressed (hopefully in the right way) when the AGM resumes on November 3rd, so I don't think any firm conclusions can be made yet and why its sensible for the questions to be raised. Whatever the final decision there will be a system that all clubs will agree on - or at least the majority!! It can't be too onorous a task if the 8 EL promoters have already agreed at least in principle, on the HL list, plus there is clearly some signs of other foreign riders wanting to ride who will be added to that list eg, the likes of KK, Lindback to name but 2. Edited October 23, 2015 by Skidder1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy robin Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 tge whole point of creating a heat leader list and a second string list is that it wont simply be the top 24 are heat leaders. You will get riders on the heat leader list with higher averages than some on the second string list because they rode solely in one category and their average has skewed accordingly. Zengota a good example ended 7.79 and No1 in team list but I think he had no meetings as a heat leader. I would grade him a second string still. The fun will be where those yoyo riders are placed and who that benefits....... if you revert back to the traditional race fornat then the lists can be discarded once the impact of previous skewing drops out of the rolling averages. Given the fact that tier 1 can now move into the 1-5 there is no reason to retain the changed format. If the feel the No7 needs some protection make it that the heat 8 2/7 is set and the tier 2 cant be replaced in that one. Zengota rode as a heat leader in 4 or 5 meetings & averaged 5.4 something & would struggle as a heat leader all season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 Why do we need a HL Group, why do we need Draft scheme. we just want it the way it always was...... The trouble is it wasn't always the way it was, and some people who were around when it wasn't the way it was think the way wasn't was really the way it was as far as they are concerned and those ones who think the way it wasn't was really the way it think that those who want it the way it was are talking about the way it wasn't, and the only ones who remember the way it was were the ones around around when it was the way it was, but to the others it never was the way it was because they never saw it as it was . If you see what I mean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 The more I think about the hl list,the more I think it is going to be poorly executed. Poole have holder Andersen and north, all on bargain averages and all of whom should be classed as hl. If you add Kurtz, who most think is going to poole, Newman and another 4 pt reserve, they will have a 7.5 spot remaining. Can't see Ford having agreed to the rule if he was going to end up with unusable team building points. Or if he couldn't use an asset like north on a sub 6 average. This also shows that 90% of speedway fans don't really understand averages. Zengota rode as a heat leader in 4 or 5 meetings & averaged 5.4 something & would struggle as a he hiat leader all season.The whole vpointvof a hl list is surely to ring fence those with artificially low averages and those with artificially high averages. Zengi obviously the latter.he would be a terrible hl signing, clearly should not be on the hl list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Panda Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 I think that part of the problem is that there are a lot of riders on false averages because of the way the system as it is at the moment.............the draft and not allowing the main team to move around as much because of it means there are a lot more riders with between a 5.5 and 7 point average than there used to be........... Whatever they do about this heat leader list it needs to be fair as does the draft............at least now with that riders can now move into the main team and others drop to reserve when needed......... RP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 But we already know the draft won't be fair, due to the use of pl converted averages rather than el converted averages. One team is a big winner from that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Panda Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 But we already know the draft won't be fair, due to the use of pl converted averages rather than el converted averages. One team is a big winner from that.... If they use the same reserves.................to be fair Kyle Newman was lined up for Poole last season even if he was not in the draft............. RP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen chemistry Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 I think that part of the problem is that there are a lot of riders on false averages because of the way the system as it is at the moment.............the draft and not allowing the main team to move around as much because of it means there are a lot more riders with between a 5.5 and 7 point average than there used to be........... Whatever they do about this heat leader list it needs to be fair as does the draft............at least now with that riders can now move into the main team and others drop to reserve when needed......... RP theres a simple way to work it out , calculate how many matches each rider rode as a heat leader... If they use the same reserves.................to be fair Kyle Newman was lined up for Poole last season even if he was not in the draft............. RP newman in the top 5 last season? instead of who...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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