Birmingham Brummies 2016

[Argos]

uk Martin so you don't go to Birmingham speedway anymore

[guitar_art]

Whilst we all have our own loyalties to our clubs as supporters there has to be an understanding that riders have to look after their own best interests. If Zach continues on his meteoric rise this season it would make his average too high to be considered for the NL next year anyway therefore asset or not. The PL already has first call on his services over fixture clashes so in that respect having an asset is worthless.

For NL clubs the best money spinner is to sign an unknown 3 pointer, watch their stock rise then cash in. As supporters all we can do is enjoy the time they respective riders spent with our clubs, wish them well for the future and hope the next crop can emulate the same success.

But Birmingham have not been allowed to cash in as you put it.

[uk_martin]

uk Martin so you don't go to Birmingham speedway anymore

 

I still go but it's more about hooking up with the people who I've gotten to know over the years. Can't take the racing that seriously any more though. In fact last year we were all having bets on how many tumbles there would be during the course of the meeting. That said it's nice when you see a genuine talent blossom and stand out from the crowd. One day, hopefully I might be able to say that I saw Zach W's first laps etc. like those fans of Boston can boast about seeing Darcy Ward when he was still in nappies.

But Birmingham have not been allowed to cash in as you put it.

 

But that's just it. The NL isn't about being able to cash in. It's about contributing to everyone else's greater good. It's about developing talent for the higher leagues and hopefully, one day, Team GB. That's the whole point of the NL.

[guitar_art]

 

I still go but it's more about hooking up with the people who I've gotten to know over the years. Can't take the racing that seriously any more though. In fact last year we were all having bets on how many tumbles there would be during the course of the meeting. That said it's nice when you see a genuine talent blossom and stand out from the crowd. One day, hopefully I might be able to say that I saw Zach W's first laps etc. like those fans of Boston can boast about seeing Darcy Ward when he was still in nappies.

 

But that's just it. The NL isn't about being able to cash in. It's about contributing to everyone else's greater good. It's about developing talent for the higher leagues and hopefully, one day, Team GB. That's the whole point of the NL

But how is putting a club in a position where it can't earn from it's discoveries serving anyone's greater good? We developed Zach last year we should have some chance of a return.

 

Now that Zach has been stolen we may even have to pay a loan fee and wont get a loan fee from somerset. not exactly encouraging us to develop talent is it. And what about the fans? This has been a big kick in the teeth for Birmingham supporters and so many have said they wont now be attending (and I have to be honest it has more than crossed my mind.) I have to fear for our future.

[Deano]

Then Birmingham close.. killed by it's own fan base. we don't deserve speedway by the sounds of it.

 

It isn't Tony Moles's fault this new rule has "appeared", but it seems our very own fans want to hit him in the pocket.

[uk_martin]

Youcan't apply Elite League principles in the National League. Cashing in this and loan fees that. It doesn't apply. "We developed Zach"? Really? He developed. Wherever he had been, he'd have developed. The National League developed him and now the higher leagues, and in time Team GB will get something for him. My god, have I missed something? Is he now NOT going to the the Brummies #1 this year or something? I've not seen anything to say he won't be at Birmingham this season. Why is there this panic? We'll see him this year and then his career will progress somewhere else. Kids can't stay in Infant School forever. And Infant Schools for speedway is exactly what NL teams are.

 

And if you think that Birmingham are "owed" for developing Zach, then how indebted to the MDL are the Brummies for the two Jumping Jack Flashes that they will have at reserve this year, not to mention all the MDL track time afforded to some of the Brummies riders last year?

[uk_martin]

... where it can't earn from it's discoveries ..

 

Whose discoveries actually? My recollection is that Zach and the others were "discovered" by Phil Morris thanks to to the knowledge and contacts that he gained in his SCB appointment in the GB Youth setup, and recruited by Phil Morris to Birmingham. What does Phil Morris get out of all this?

[pete cc]

Well done Phil. Harsh i know but that is the most he will get.

[Ben91]

Nobody 'discovers' a speedway rider, a lad gets on a bike, if he has enough potential someone will give him a team spot.

 

There are some motorbike riders from other disciplines who are told they would do well at speedway and given a chance to have a go on a bike, if they do well they then get given a team spot by someone.

 

I personally think the asset system is a joke, however if it is in place for the EL and PL then the NL should be allowed to use it too. Even if NL clubs were allowed assets there are no guarantees Zach would have chosen to be a Birmingham asset anyway.

[uk_martin]

I personally think the asset system is a joke, however if it is in place for the EL and PL then the NL should be allowed to use it too.

Imagine though...virtually anyone who is anyone would start life as a and NL asset. Scunthorpe could have earned a fortune on Tai Woffinden and Boston could still be in existence today on the back of their loan fees for Darcy Ward.

 

The problem is though that without material returns EL and PL teams won't invest in the riders. Then where will they be?

 

Even if NL clubs were allowed assets there are no guarantees Zach would have chosen to be a Birmingham asset anyway.

This is also true, however unpalatable it may be.

[Leicester Hunter]

Nobody 'discovers' a speedway rider, a lad gets on a bike, if he has enough potential someone will give him a team spot.

 

If he's in the right place at the right time. There's always an element of luck involved.

 

I personally think the asset system is a joke, however if it is in place for the EL and PL then the NL should be allowed to use it too.

Absolutely.

 

Even if NL clubs were allowed assets there are no guarantees Zach would have chosen to be a Birmingham asset anyway.

No, there aren't, but we won't know one way or the other now.

 

Boston could still be in existence today on the back of their loan fees for Darcy Ward.

 

Er, I hate to break this to you, but Boston are still in existence. They're known as Kings Lynn Young Stars these days. And Kings Lynn were amply rewarded with the transfer fee they received from Poole during the winter of 2009/10.

 

With that in mind, can anyone on here actually show me where Belle Vue, Coventry, Kings Lynn and Rye House can't sign new assets and put them in the NL? Because it appears there isn't a rule which prevents the Aces, Bees, Stars or Rockets from signing a promising youngster and putting them into their junior team. Yes, to all intents and purposes they might appear as separate entities, if the respective promotions are fully clued up, which they will be, they're not. Welcome to a two tier NL.

 

Like Crazy Jack, my hard earned money will be spent elsewhere this year.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Leicester Hunter

[pete cc]

The current system does sound a little floored. I keep hearing that the riders are paid for what they do on track, not the team? so what is an asset? If he gets injured he doesn't get paid & has to contact the ben fund. It does sound to me that this asset system needs to scrapped & let riders sign short term contracts with whoever they want.

[Deano]

The asset system just moves money around speedway clubs. It doesn't actually generate anything for the sport, only the taxman benefits I guess?

 

If that's the case, the money pot for assets actually gets less and needs rejuvinating by promoters or sponsors every so often.

 

So why bother at all with it?

 

It appears to be just another self depreciating prophecy like everything in speedway.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Deano

[uk_martin]

As I understand it, this whole asset thing is all about teams pumping money/vans/bikes/equipment/accommodation/whatever into a rider at the start of his career, in return for the value that he brings to the team later in his career. That value can be either in the form of points for the team or £££ in loan / transfer fees,

 

So imagine for a moment that this didn't happen. What then? I don't remember any of this happening in the 1970's and 1980's, Back then riders sank or swam on their own abilities, Now they are helped if they agree to sell their souls. Back then if a rider was transferred it was a full blown transfer, not some kind of glorified loan. Now, things are a lot more complicated and intertwined. Back then, the whole world was a simpler and cheaper place. Now the costs of the sport mean that backers are needed.

 

So it's an imperfect world and this asset thing is an imperfect part of it. But what are the alternatives? Anyone can say "bah humbug" but who can come up with the alternative solution?

 

Is the American Football franchise system a better way forward? If the whole league owned all the assets in it, there would be no arguement over who's an asset of whom. If all the promoters were shareholders in the league, with each having a shareholding of a value of what they put into the league, in the form of assets, then they will all get a split of the profits of the system, according to their shareholding too. Damn, they might even all start pulling in the same direction on occasions. At the end of the day, as has been said many times, a rider will ride for who he wants to, so what difference does individual team asset ownership make to team strengths in that way?

 

I dunno. Just an idea for the pot. But at least it's an idea.

[Islander15]

 

With that in mind, can anyone on here actually show me where Belle Vue, Coventry, Kings Lynn and Rye House can't sign new assets and put them in the NL? Because it appears there isn't a rule which prevents the Aces, Bees, Stars or Rockets from signing a promising youngster and putting them into their junior team. Yes, to all intents and purposes they might appear as separate entities, if the respective promotions are fully clued up, which they will be, they're not. Welcome to a two tier NL.

 

The new ruling only prevents standalone NL sides from signing assets, and the situation you describe is completely allowed. The whole rule change stinks!

[Brummie Kev]

So lets get this right, the EL and PL decide at their AGM that decide some National League teams cannot own their own riders and they just come in, pinch your rider, sign him as their asset which means you have to pay a loan fee? If thats right, were the National League consulted about this because as far as im concerned they are just s****** on this league from a great height!

Before a smaller club like Buxton could have signed a really talented rider when he turned 15. He good have progressed to say the EL by the age of 17, then a club like Poole or Coventry could have come in and paid Buxton a nice transfer fee for that rider to become their asset. To a club with small resources that is like gold dust, now the EL and PL teams can bypass the NL. They dont have to pay a NL club for a rider, just pinch him and bring in a few £££ by loaning him out. Great for their leagues but it the fianacial cost on some of the NL clubs that is what I worry about the most but they dont care I suspect.

There are some clubs like the Brummies that could race in a higher league like Cradley, Eastbourne or Kent. What kind of incentive are you giving these clubs because if they move up they wont have any assets. Most likely the already PL standard riders they have would have been signed by PL clubs so we will be going into that league blind. I dont want PL in 2017 after this, they can shove it.

I dont blame Zach because like any rider he wants to ride at the top and when the big boys change the rules to suit themselves, he cannot turn them down. He will give 110% for the Brummies no doubt this season.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Brummie Kev

[uk_martin]

So lets get this right, the EL and PL decide at their AGM that decide some National League teams cannot own their own riders and they just come in, pinch your rider, sign him as their asset which means you have to pay a loan fee? If thats right, were the National League consulted about this because as far as im concerned they are just s****** on this league from a great height!

This is the BSPA that you're talking about isn't it? And we all know which organisation always knows what's in the best interests of British Speedway...at all times.

 

 

...Buxton could have signed a really talented rider when he turned 15.

In all fairness, I can see both sides to this one. On one hand, Buxton can be the first to spot someone with talent, but what do they have to offer him? Poole or Coventry or Swindon can come along, buy him a couple of bikes, a van, Kings Lynn gave Darcy Ward somewhere to live...all the things that are out of Buxton's reach. So who should a kid sign for? If you recall, we had a situation recently when the Brummies had Richard Sweetman in their team who was a Coventry asset almost from the point when he landed in the country. The Brummies missed out on Adam Roynon Tai Woffinden and Josh Auty in 2007 / 2008 simply because of the pulling power of EL teams. Peterborough hoovered up almost half of the population of Australia in the hope of finding a gold nugget in there somewhere. This is not a new phenomenon. There is no way that a NL team can possibly hope to "sign" these riders because they have nothing to offer. The Brummies recently ran a story on their web site about some of the team paying their way to get some pre-season training on the continent. Looking at that from another angle, there's a story about a team investing NOTHING in its riders and making them pay for the training themselves so that the team will later hope to get the benefit from it all. So what should Birmingham be set to earn from their non-investment?

 

We've seen Zach sign for Lakeside. If Wolverhampton or Poole come along and say to these other riders, "how would you like a new bike to ride and an all expenses trip to Italy to do some pre-season training" - have a guess how long they will remain in Birmingham either.

 

 

...now the EL and PL teams can bypass the NL...

They always have been able to. It's just that when Birmingham were in higher leagues, we saw things from a different perspective and took advantage of the situation in the same way that we are being taken advantage of now. The Brummies took Jon Armstrong off Mildenhall, and Ben Taylor off Buxton in the PL days and I bet they came to us in exchange for nothing more than a big thank you to their former NL teams.

 

 

There are some clubs like the Brummies that could race in a higher league like Cradley, Eastbourne or Kent. What kind of incentive are you giving these clubs because if they move up they wont have any assets. Most likely the already PL standard riders they have would have been signed by PL clubs so we will be going into that league blind. I dont want PL in 2017 after this, they can shove it.

The answer is that there's no incentive. Just like Birmingham Brummies have been shafted by the establishment since 1976, they always will be. But don't worry yourself about the Brummies knocking on the PL's door any time soon. The crowds didn't warrant it last year and by the sounds of it, there will be less of a crowd this year.

[Islander15]

In all fairness, I can see both sides to this one. On one hand, Buxton can be the first to spot someone with talent, but what do they have to offer him? Poole or Coventry or Swindon can come along, buy him a couple of bikes, a van, Kings Lynn gave Darcy Ward somewhere to live...all the things that are out of Buxton's reach. So who should a kid sign for?

 

But both should be allowed to happen within the rules and the rider should be allowed to choose whether he wants to sign for a Poole or a Buxton! If a EL club spots a talented rider (I think Neil Vatcher saw Adam Ellis first) then by all means let the EL club promise him this and that and sign him up and loan him to the NL (IOW at the time), and if the rider is happy with that then let it happen. If a NL club spots a rider (take Jason Pipe and Ryan Burton as an example) and gives him his first team place and gives him practice sessions (I know the pair have often been to Scunthorpe this winter) then give the rider the option to sign as an asset of that NL team! NL teams have lots to offer because at the end of the day the most important thing is competitive track time, and you get that in the NL! Edited March 19, 2016 by Islander15

[Deano]

For me, keep it simple.

 

All riders that are registered to ride in the UK, have their contracts owned by the BSPA by default.

 

Teams then agree deals with riders as they do now.

 

No team gets first refusal, priority, nor to they have to get permission from any other team to talk.

 

Teams only inform BSPA when they want to speak to a rider.

 

No loaning fee's, no money changing hands to purchase riders... just money paid out to riders in wages/points money etc.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Deano

[uk_martin]

But both should be allowed to happen within the rules and the rider should be allowed to choose whether he wants to sign for a Poole or a Buxton! If a EL club spots a talented rider (I think Neil Vatcher saw Adam Ellis first) then by all means let the EL club promise him this and that and sign him up and loan him to the NL (IOW at the time), and if the rider is happy with that then let it happen. If a NL club spots a rider (take Jason Pipe and Ryan Burton as an example) and gives him his first team place and gives him practice sessions (I know the pair have often been to Scunthorpe this winter) then give the rider the option to sign as an asset of that NL team! NL teams have lots to offer because at the end of the day the most important thing is competitive track time, and you get that in the NL!

By that argument why not allow MDL teams sign riders as tradable assets?