Stoke Potter Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Ridiculous statements. Tatum doesn't comment on my, or many others', particular track. The 5 heat bedding in situation occurs usually when a track is, for whatever reason, over watered. Your "Heat 1 everywhere" statement is just a lie. As you so humorously imply, the laws of physics and chemistry do apply to speedway tracks in the form of wind, rain, temperature and so on which, amazingly, aren't exactly the same for every meeting. Tatum's commented on a fair few, it also applies to GP tracks. The "x" heat bedding situation is the usual situation at most tracks. So tell where is this track that you don't win heat1 by hugging the kerb? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_Jones Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Tatum's commented on a fair few, it also applies to GP tracks. The "x" heat bedding situation is the usual situation at most tracks. So tell where is this track that you don't win heat1 by hugging the kerb? They're all over the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Of course the reason is that tracks can't be prepared consistently is because the laws of physics and chemistry don't apply to speedway tracks..! e. No as I said before tracks can't be prepared consistently because our weather is not consistent..that doesn't necessarily excuse poor preparation, but it is why the track is not always the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoke Potter Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 No as I said before tracks can't be prepared consistently because our weather is not consistent..that doesn't necessarily excuse poor preparation, but it is why the track is not always the same. I agree with what you say there. I'd venture that one of the reasons that tracks are sometimes perceived to be poorly prepared is that the same things are generally done each time regardless of the weather. Nobody said it was easy. It would take time, effort, knowledge, experimentation and, above all, money to do the job properly. This thread is about why don't more people go to speedway. The answer is, for the most part, it is a poor spectacle, particularly for the layman. Track size, shape and condition are fundamental to that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 I agree with what you say there. I'd venture that one of the reasons that tracks are sometimes perceived to be poorly prepared is that the same things are generally done each time regardless of the weather. Nobody said it was easy. It would take time, effort, knowledge, experimentation and, above all, money to do the job properly. This thread is about why don't more people go to speedway. The answer is, for the most part, it is a poor spectacle, particularly for the layman. Track size, shape and condition are fundamental to that. Hard to argue with that SP. But sometimes Tracks size and shape are dictated by the Dog Track surrounding it. You can only do your best with what you have to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoke Potter Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Hard to argue with that SP. But sometimes Tracks size and shape are dictated by the Dog Track surrounding it. You can only do your best with what you have to work with. Agreed, another reason that it is fundamentally flawed. Is crap speedway better than no speedway? Do something radical, revise the rules on track sizes/widths, give all existing tracks x years to comply. Some would, some wouldn't. Remember not so long ago compulsory airfences were going to shut virtually every track in the country... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Agreed, another reason that it is fundamentally flawed. Is crap speedway better than no speedway? Do something radical, revise the rules on track sizes/widths, give all existing tracks x years to comply. Some would, some wouldn't. Remember not so long ago compulsory airfences were going to shut virtually every track in the country... And there goes a good number of tracks down the swanny. Just to standardise tracks which would still be different from other countries tracks. Different is good, why not Sheffield and Plymouth in the league. Stupid idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoke Potter Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 And there goes a good number of tracks down the swanny. Just to standardise tracks which would still be different from other countries tracks. Different is good, why not Sheffield and Plymouth in the league. Stupid idea. Promoter say's fan has stupid idea! Now there's a novel thing!!! It's not standardisation, it's increasing minimum dimensions, lengths and widths, to make the tracks more conducive to close racing/overtaking. They don't all have to be the same. Speedway has fundamental flaws, the biggest of which is too many tracks that don't produce good racing. Fix them first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 Promoter say's fan has stupid idea! Now there's a novel thing!!! It's not standardisation, it's increasing minimum dimensions, lengths and widths, to make the tracks more conducive to close racing/overtaking. They don't all have to be the same. Speedway has fundamental flaws, the biggest of which is too many tracks that don't produce good racing. Fix them first. All at the expense of losing some tracks. Stupid idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoke Potter Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 All at the expense of losing some tracks. Stupid idea It will improve the product and it's a stupid idea. Really! If you're being stubborn about it, then change the rules just for new tracks. So basically what you're saying is there is nothing wrong with the fundamentals? Seriously? Ok, in a couple of sentences tell me what the problem with the sport is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 It's not standardisation, it's increasing minimum dimensions, lengths and widths, to make the tracks more conducive to close racing/overtaking. They don't all have to be the same. I'm not sure it's entirely down to track dimensions. Whilst wider should be better, I think track shape and camber is far more deterministic than length and width. If the track preparation is rubbish and/or not cambered well, then having the extra width is pointless. You can get some good racing on small tracks. Costa Mesa is not entirely my cup of tea, but it undeniably produces entertaining racing on a ridiculously small track (or at least did). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) Promoter say's fan has stupid idea! Now there's a novel thing!!! It's not standardisation, it's increasing minimum dimensions, lengths and widths, to make the tracks more conducive to close racing/overtaking. They don't all have to be the same. Speedway has fundamental flaws, the biggest of which is too many tracks that don't produce good racing. Fix them first. Unfortunately the by-product of initially allowing all comers into speedway leagues to make up the numbers rather than having an initial minimum size/ basic shape pattern for newbie clubs to conform to. That may have led to the emergence of more purpose-built tracks, built at a time when crowds were higher and councils more amenable to such things, instead of throwing up a track inside a dog track or outside of a football or rugby pitch just to get another team running. That's not saying that all tracks built inside or around another sporting facility come into the 'don't produce good racing' category, of course. Now they're up and running, it would be unfair to the track and possibly even more detrimental to the sport to shut them down. Edited October 31, 2015 by Vincent Blackshadow 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 ....Tsunami.........Tracks are usually prepped all day and have a decent racing line from heat 1, despite what Stoke Potter says. After that the racing naturally throws the dirt toward the fence, the inside then becomes bald with no grip and. unfortunately, the dirt on the outside next to the fence becomes too deep and dangerous to ride in. As with the GP's, to overcome this it is necessary to bring the dirt back in to the inside to try to maintain the same grip all over the track. As others have said, track rakers used to help with this by raking the dirt away from the fence for the tractors to collect and distribute. A meeting with no grading would be dangerous and have boring racing. As least if the dirt is brought back to the inside, it gives different racing lines which should make for varied racing lines. Thanks for that full explanation. Still a bit puzzled though about the inside becoming bald with no grip because I've always understood track rakers (when we had them) weren't supposed to bring the dirt back to the inside of the track because it made the surface like marbles.....or words to that effect. Tractors too seem to avoid the inside so it stays as it was at heat 1. Anyway, all very interesting but it's still boring standing around in the cold watching tractors go round in circles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) All at the expense of losing some tracks. Stupid idea.Any business that sells a product that year on year, less and less people purchase, ultimately goes bust anyway... The savvy ones listen to their customers' feedback, make the requested changes from the feedback given, survive, evolve and even prosper.. The ones that choose to stick their heads in the sand and tell their customers "I'm happy with what I provide for you, there is no other way so take it or leave it" only go one way.... And it doesn't have a happy ending... Edited October 31, 2015 by mikebv 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 They might well be prepped all day but you don't get decent racing in heat 1, or usually for the first 5,6,7+++, pick whichever number it is at your particular track . How many times does Tatum (and plenty of others) say about the dirt moving out after a few heats to create more/better lines? Heat 1 everywhere is pop out the start and hug the kerb. To say anything else is just wrong. I never said I had any issue with track grading during the meeting, that is definitely required. Of course the reason is that tracks can't be prepared consistently is because the laws of physics and chemistry don't apply to speedway tracks..! Or that is what the "experts" would have you believe. Agreed. If we got £1 every time the rides told us we'd get good racing later or in a few heats on Sky we'd be well off by now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoke Potter Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 I'm not sure it's entirely down to track dimensions. Whilst wider should be better, I think track shape and camber is far more deterministic than length and width. If the track preparation is rubbish and/or not cambered well, then having the extra width is pointless. You can get some good racing on small tracks. Costa Mesa is not entirely my cup of tea, but it undeniably produces entertaining racing on a ridiculously small track (or at least did). I would say banking rather than camber but it's difficult to describe good banking on a forum, suffice to say a big wide track needs to be adequately banked. I don't disagree that you can get decent racing on smaller tracks but, as I think I've said on another thread, the best big track will always be better than the best small one. Unfortunately the by-product of initially allowing all comers into speedway leagues to make up the numbers rather than having an initial minimum size/ basic shape pattern for newbie clubs to conform to. That may have led to the emergence of more purpose-built tracks, built at a time when crowds were higher and councils more amenable to such things, instead of throwing up a track inside a dog track or outside of a football or rugby pitch just to get another team running. That's not saying that all tracks built inside or around another sporting facility come into the 'don't produce good racing' category, of course. Now they're up and running, it would be unfair to the track and possibly even more detrimental to the sport to shut them down. I'd agree with that too apart from the last bit. Giving them a period of years to comply softens the blow to some extent. Agreed. If we got £1 every time the rides told us we'd get good racing later or in a few heats on Sky we'd be well off by now! Exactly and you still get people coming on here denying it! For a 15 heat match at most tracks, the track is probably at it's best for heats 8 -12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 I would say banking rather than camber but it's difficult to describe good banking on a forum I was sort of equating camber with banking, although there's arguably a technical difference. the best big track will always be better than the best small one. Not sure what the definition of 'big' is here. In terms of length I'd disagree as I feel the best racing circuits are normally in the 300-320 metre range, and I've never particularly enjoyed racing on longer circuits as a rule. If you mean wider and the other conditions are met, then I'd probably agree with you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoke Potter Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 I was sort of equating camber with banking, although there's arguably a technical difference. Not sure what the definition of 'big' is here. In terms of length I'd disagree as I feel the best racing circuits are normally in the 300-320 metre range, and I've never particularly enjoyed racing on longer circuits as a rule. If you mean wider and the other conditions are met, then I'd probably agree with you. I'd probably go with more 320 - 350 but anything over 300 is ok I'd say, everything else being equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Science Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 I agree with what you say there. I'd venture that one of the reasons that tracks are sometimes perceived to be poorly prepared is that the same things are generally done each time regardless of the weather. Nobody said it was easy. It would take time, effort, knowledge, experimentation and, above all, money to do the job properly. This thread is about why don't more people go to speedway. The answer is, for the most part, it is a poor spectacle, particularly for the layman. Track size, shape and condition are fundamental to that. Agree with a lot of what you say Stoke Potter. Just seen a cracking football match this afternoon, goals,incident,cracking entertainment in front of a crowd who were in it for 90 minutes. No circus acts, dancing girls or young funky music just a cracking core product which lets be honest is why we follow sport in the first place. Some of the people I attend speedway with have stopped going this year simply because the racing is not good enough and they are bored,the presentation is good but the core product is not good enough often enough.You can advertise,promote all you want but if people are not impressed first off they won't be back and will follow the many other thousands who have already walked away. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) Thanks for that full explanation. Still a bit puzzled though about the inside becoming bald with no grip because I've always understood track rakers (when we had them) weren't supposed to bring the dirt back to the inside of the track because it made the surface like marbles.....or words to that effect. Tractors too seem to avoid the inside so it stays as it was at heat 1. Anyway, all very interesting but it's still boring standing around in the cold watching tractors go round in circles. Ah, this is where it gets a bit technical. If the rakers know what they are doing they wouldn't do much to bends 1 and 3 because riders are still sliding into the bends at those points. There should be a bit more dirt on bends 2 and 4 where the bikes are picking up more drive on the exit, but ideally they should watch where the tractor is dragging the dirt. I haven't been to Coventry for a while now but the last few times I went there were no rakers and the tractor was more or less following the arc of the bends down not really dragging much over so it didn't really do much for the racing. I suppose that might be the reason Cov fans come on here more than most complaining about poor track prep too much tractor racing and late finishing meetings.Agreed. If we got £1 every time the rides told us we'd get good racing later or in a few heats on Sky we'd be well off by now!You should know by now that that is a Tatum euphemism for "This visiting side are rubbish and are going to get a tonking but I have to tell the punters something to stop them turning off too early and killing the advertising revenue." ! Promoter say's fan has stupid idea! Now there's a novel thing!!! It's not standardisation, it's increasing minimum dimensions, lengths and widths, to make the tracks more conducive to close racing/overtaking. They don't all have to be the same. Speedway has fundamental flaws, the biggest of which is too many tracks that don't produce good racing. Fix them first. If a track doesn't produce good racing it is basically only going to hurt that particular promoter whether it is big or smali so it's not the sort of thing a central body can legislate on. Anyway track size is dictated more by FIM rules than BSPA rules and I very much doubt that the A CU would back the SCB if they tried to makes rules on track si size that were more restrictive than the FIM if a promoter appealed. Cardiff is a small tight track of well under 300 metres and it gets the biggest crowd anywhere so I don't think your argument on track size stands up Edited October 31, 2015 by E I Addio 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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