Play Offs Should They Be Scrapped.?

[steve roberts]

I've purposely tried to take a back seat regarding this particular subject because of all the abuse and finger pointing that any comment against the Play-Off system from certain quarters generate but...

 

It's no secret (well chronicled elsewhere) that I gave up attending speedway in 2003 thru' various reasons but mainly due to re-location. My team (Oxford) won the last traditional championship in 2001 after a very closely fought season long battle with Poole. The matches all season long were well supported because we felt we had a team that would be challenging for the title. The next season (2002) it was decided to re-structure the league format and hold play-offs to decide the league champions. Oxford were denied an opportunity to defend their title because SKY had decided that the 'qualifying' matches should be completed by the end of August. However, Oxford's visit to Peterborough didn't take place as it fell outside that remit. If Oxford had won that match they would have claimed the last play-off spot however Peterborough 'qualified' instead (even though one could argue that they were at fault for not running the fixture within the agreed time scale).

 

Hence why my enthusiasm began to wain (although to be fair it had been on the decline for a number of years). I have no interest in the economies of play-offs as I haven't access to such figures and it's beyond my remit and, to be frank, my interest as I no longer attend matches. I'll let those who still have a vestige interest in the sport to 'discuss' the pros and cons but my underlying feeling of play-offs are in the negative due to the irregularities of its initial inception and the fact that my team was denied an opportunity to defend their title thru' no fault of their making!

[BWitcher]

So basically you stopped going because you relocated and your enthusiasm was already on the decline.

 

I agree that not running fixtures isn't ideal, but that comes down to the poor organisation of the BSPA.... like many of the issues!

[steve roberts]

So basically you stopped going because you relocated and your enthusiasm was already on the decline.

 

I agree that not running fixtures isn't ideal, but that comes down to the poor organisation of the BSPA.... like many of the issues!

Yes!

[BWitcher]

Yes!

 

You see, we can discuss it civilly!

 

A question I would ask now is, what was causing your enthusiasm to decline do you think prior to that.. as that wasn't playoff related. The picture is far, far bigger than playoffs as I have been trying to get across.

[steve roberts]

 

You see, we can discuss it civilly!

 

A question I would ask now is, what was causing your enthusiasm to decline do you think prior to that.. as that wasn't playoff related. The picture is far, far bigger than playoffs as I have been trying to get across.

A long, long saga but for many various reasons (which I have chronicled elsewhere) Where to start? Heat formula, points limits, team suits, lack of continuity, lack of British riders, value for money, BSPA, manipulation of regulations, machines and/or tuners, GP etc etc

 

As I have commented elsewhere i have helped behind the scenes, given promotional talks etc but for no real benefit. Unfortunately I feel that the sport has dug itself a big hole and really needs to accept that attendances are constantly on the slide and people have decided to look elsewhere for entertainment and needs to take a big look at itself. Has the day come that the 'star' riders need to be given an ultimatum to chose between competing in Britain or ride in the GP or abroad (many apparently already do)? Personally I think so but as I say I no longer have a vestige interest in the sport and it's up to others to 'discuss' the sports merits/short falls/rescue in turning the sport round. I did my bit for 32 years!

 

I'll continue reminiscing about the 'good old days!'

Edited December 4, 2015 by steve roberts

[orion]

Ohhhh - Penfold.

 

Penfold isn't lying - it is just gently taking the mickey. Unfortunately you seem to take that as lying. I obviously overestimated your intelligence. I'm sorry about that.

 

How is Dangermouse these days?

 

Ohhhh - Penfold.

 

Penfold isn't lying - it is just gently taking the mickey. Unfortunately you seem to take that as lying. I obviously overestimated your intelligence. I'm sorry about that.

 

How is Dangermouse these days?

Take a step back from your post ..and have a look how childish it is ...your such an embarrassment .

Give your dad a buzz because you never TRY to debate on your own you need a bit of help.The few Swindon fans who i know who know you???? tell me you ent got a clue certainly on the history of Swindon Speedway.!!??

Sorry you lost me ? the subject is about the play offs not about the history of Swindon Speedway or what your mates think I know about it ...as I ask before why would the crowds be bigger without the play offs ?

[stratton]

Very sad that despite making constructive posts and asking genuine questions all Sidney and WK can do is continue to hurl insults.

 

I'll try one more time to see if genuine debate can be engaged with either of you.

 

Why do you think the National League have re-introduced playoffs?

I recon me and WK are saints? i can never ever remember WK being nasty no he is a fair man listens wont always agree but he is Geniune.Can you debate unless you WIN??i have me doubts but like i have said before endless times on speedway issues over a period you are pretty limited in your speedway knowledge.

[stratton]

Take a step back from your post ..and have a look how childish it is ...your such an embarrassment .

Sorry you lost me ? the subject is about the play offs not about the history of Swindon Speedway or what your mates think I know about it ...as I ask before why would the crowds be bigger without the play offs ?

The couple of mates of mine who i wont say who they are, know you still say you are a compete prat a bit harsh i suppose will give you the benefit of the doubt. Edited December 4, 2015 by sidney

[guitar_art]

Ok I am now going to attempt to answer some of the points below to the best of my ability. I hope that I can do so without resorting to bad manners, that will certainly be my aim.

 

When I have finished I don't imagine that I will be making another post on the subject (though you never know) as I don't see the point. I would like to make it clear that this is not because I in anyway concede any of the points in the posts I am quoting or any other. This means that I will of course be leaving others to have the last word but I don't have a problem with that.

 

Unlike others I am not stating that I am right. As I have previously said I believe its not as black and white as that. However my views are my views and I have not (so far) heard any argument that has made me change my mind. My view is simple. Play offs in a speedway context are unfair for reasons I have already stated and will probably restate below. We have been compared in this debate to other sports which is why I have said in a speedway context. This sport is unique in so many ways and one of those ways is the home track advantage argument. No other team sport that I can think of carries so big an advantage to the home team. One of the reasons that I have suggested that any T/S rule should only be available to the away team. I am not holding myself up as the be all and know all on speedway matters and I am happy to be criticised and corrected if this is done with good manners.

 

Anyway for what it's worth here is my attempt at answering the points made.

 

When people make posts that deserve some respect then I agree.

 

I have to fundamentally disagree with you on this. Every poster deserves respect and that respect should not be dependent upon the content of their post/s. Put simply if you cannot respect a person then you cannot expect respect back.

 

However we have three or four posters on here who quite simply cannot process information. They cannot see what is in front of their face.

 

Again I have to take issue with this statement. I could just as easily say (and I am not saying this because my mother brought me up right.) that you are not able to explain what you want to say in any meaningful way. Both statements, yours and mine are wrong and do nothing to move the debate on.

 

Their idea has been TRIED and FAILED. No supposition, no if's, but's or maybe's... their system has been scrapped as of 2nd December.

 

Failed! In what way have they failed. Last years NL was run succesfully as far as I am aware.No clubs went under and in fact the league has now expanded. Doesn't feel like a failure to me. And in any case we have no idea why the change has been made. No info has come out on that one. What we do know is that the vote was NOT unanimous so at least some of the clubs did not see it as a failure. Also as I have previously stated. This sport is run in a way that means club before sport. We do not know why each club voted the way it did. Although we may conjecture that Eastbourne did if for reasons of competitiveness rather than monetary reasons. But that would only be conjecture as is your assertion that it is due solely for financial reasons.

 

They wanted hard and fast evidence, the National League has provided it.

 

No they did not. See above.

 

Yet none of them even acknowledge it and blindly ignore what is happening in the real world and continue to post the same thing over and over and over.

 

I refer the gentleman to the answer I gave some paragraphs ago.

 

Such posts deserve no respect, indeed such posts are essentially trolling and against forum rules.

 

Let me get this straight if I may. You appear to be saying that it is against forum rules to disagree with what you are saying. WOW!

 

Throw in that one of them is a multiple account holder flagrantly flouting forum rules because he thinks he is clever and you get this mess.

 

Some might say that throwing accusation around without providing proof is a form of trolling. I couldn't possibly say that. I would say, however, that this debate is no place for such accusations. Rather your suspicions should be reported to the mods.

 

It has nothing to do with being a keyboard warrior, what is being said on here is tame compared to what would happen in any business environment if such actions were displayed.

 

If you say so. Again brings nothing to the debate.

 

I am in control, as evidenced by real life events.

 

WOW!

 

Most recently backed up on the 2nd December when the National League having tried your system of the winners of the league being champions and staging a Gold Cup at the end of the season abandoned it because it was WORSE.

 

So again, not me who is saying it.. but real life events.

It is my contention that your logic is faulty here for reasons I have already stated.

 

 

Another post that is for the children's section.

 

Again brings nothing to the debate and is, i respectfully suggest, bad manners, unhelpful and possibly says more about you than the post you were referring to.

 

You admit playoffs work financially but then claims fans won't go because they are unfair!

 

I have said nothing of the kind. In fact I have been honest enough to say that 'I don't know'. But then again neither do you, or at least if you do you have not provided the evidence to show it. I am guessing that you are saying that the return of the play off is proof enough. But I have already provided arguments to counter that assertion. So once again we are in the realm of opinion and not fact.

 

You do realise that playoffs exist in many, many sports, none of which have any problems with perception or being unfair.

 

Home track advantage does not exist to the extent it does in speedway. This is of course IMO. My guess is that if I wanted to I could get statistics to prove it and you could probably do the same. Statistics lie. However its true and cannot be denied that Birmingham won the league last year but would not have if it went to play offs. It is my assertion that this would have been fundamentally unfair.

 

Does Rugby Union have a problem with perception because they use playoffs? No they're enjoying record crowds.

 

I have been told that Rugby have two trophies. One for the league winners and one for the play off winners. I would have no problem with that. I have not had the chance to check this out so apologise if that fact is wrong. However home track advantage plays a bigger part in speedway. Would Rugby union fans be happy with play offs if one team made an advantage by playing on a surface that no other team played on?

 

Does Rugby League have a problem? No.

 

Do people stop going to football because the team in 6th placed in the Championship got promoted to the Premier League over the team in 3rd? No.

 

They don't like it though. My god do they complain.

 

Do any of the multitude of other sports that use playoffs have problems? No

 

 

 

Quite simply. as is evidenced by REAL LIFE you're making things up in an attempt to form an argument.

 

I have certainly made up nothing. I have voiced an opinion and given reasons for those opinions. If I have made anything up then please point it out and will gladly apologise.

 

 

In finishing I will say.

 

It is a shame that some have not been able to conduct a debate without bad manners. I hope that this accusation cannot be made against me and if I have upset anyone, it was not intended and I apologise.

 

I have enjoyed the debate such as it is. I do not and never have expected to change the opinion of those I have debated with. Those opinions are honestly held and I respect and understand that. For me the debate is for those that are wavering or have no firm opinion. I will now leave the debate for others. Not because I have nothing more to say (those that know me know that will never be true ) not because others posts or opinions are so strong that I am not able to repudiate. No the real reason is that I have a life. Anyway members of this site have now heard my voice for long enough on this subject and its time for others to have their say. I would just ask that everyone, from both sides, treat each other with respect. Don't forget that the only reason that any of this is important to us is the love and passion we have for this sport. That is something we all have in common, and there is not enough of us to fall out over such things.

 

I have to finish with.

 

Brummies are Best.

 

lol

[The White Knight]

Ok I am now going to attempt to answer some of the points below to the best of my ability. I hope that I can do so without resorting to bad manners, that will certainly be my aim.

 

When I have finished I don't imagine that I will be making another post on the subject (though you never know) as I don't see the point. I would like to make it clear that this is not because I in anyway concede any of the points in the posts I am quoting or any other. This means that I will of course be leaving others to have the last word but I don't have a problem with that.

 

Unlike others I am not stating that I am right. As I have previously said I believe its not as black and white as that. However my views are my views and I have not (so far) heard any argument that has made me change my mind. My view is simple. Play offs in a speedway context are unfair for reasons I have already stated and will probably restate below. We have been compared in this debate to other sports which is why I have said in a speedway context. This sport is unique in so many ways and one of those ways is the home track advantage argument. No other team sport that I can think of carries so big an advantage to the home team. One of the reasons that I have suggested that any T/S rule should only be available to the away team. I am not holding myself up as the be all and know all on speedway matters and I am happy to be criticised and corrected if this is done with good manners.

 

Anyway for what it's worth here is my attempt at answering the points made.

 

 

In finishing I will say.

 

It is a shame that some have not been able to conduct a debate without bad manners. I hope that this accusation cannot be made against me and if I have upset anyone, it was not intended and I apologise.

 

I have enjoyed the debate such as it is. I do not and never have expected to change the opinion of those I have debated with. Those opinions are honestly held and I respect and understand that. For me the debate is for those that are wavering or have no firm opinion. I will now leave the debate for others. Not because I have nothing more to say (those that know me know that will never be true ) not because others posts or opinions are so strong that I am not able to repudiate. No the real reason is that I have a life. Anyway members of this site have now heard my voice for long enough on this subject and its time for others to have their say. I would just ask that everyone, from both sides, treat each other with respect. Don't forget that the only reason that any of this is important to us is the love and passion we have for this sport. That is something we all have in common, and there is not enough of us to fall out over such things.

 

I have to finish with.

 

Brummies are Best.

 

lol

A very good and respectful Post to which no-one could take offence GA. :approve:

[BWitcher]

I recon me and WK are saints? i can never ever remember WK being nasty no he is a fair man listens wont always agree but he is Geniune.Can you debate unless you WIN??i have me doubts but like i have said before endless times on speedway issues over a period you are pretty limited in your speedway knowledge.

 

You've said this now around 10 times on the thread, that's not debating, that's acting like a child again.

 

Once again, simple question.

 

Why do you think the National League AND the Premier League went back to the playoffs?

 

I have little doubt you won't answer it Sidney, neither will White Knight.. because the answer destroys the entire crux of your argument.

Edited December 4, 2015 by BWitcher

[orion]

The couple of mates of mine who i wont say who they are, know you still say you are a compete prat a bit harsh i suppose will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Yea you say the same thing about 10 times now ....No one gets hurt or upset about it the first time let alone the 10th ...not only is it boring its child like saying my mate say this about you ..it's belongs in the school playground .

[guitar_art]

Whoops I said I wasn't going to participate further in this debate. Just wanted to make a further point. Football and its play offs have been held up as an argument for play offs in speedway. I would just like to state the obvious. They do not settle the league champs in that way and they use a neutral venue, something that happens in most sports that use a play off system.

 

You've said this now around 10 times on the thread, that's not debating, that's acting like a child again.

 

Once again, simple question.

 

Why do you think the National League AND the Premier League went back to the playoffs?

 

I have little doubt you won't answer it Sidney, neither will White Knight.. because the answer destroys the entire crux of your argument.

I have given an answer to your question at least as far as the NL is concerned. You have suggested it is for monetary reasons but have not provided any real evidence to support this other than your interpretation of a meeting that you did not attend. I respectfully suggest that this is not evidence but merely an opinion. I have given at least one alternative to your suggestion (This again is merely opinion) and pointed out that the vote was not unanimous so even within the NL there is a difference of opinion on this matter.

 

Damn I said I was not going to rejoin the debate. The problem is I am enjoying it to much. Sigh!! I really must get myself a life.

The couple of mates of mine who i wont say who they are, know you still say you are a compete prat a bit harsh i suppose will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Please tell me how this adds to the debate?

[orion]

Whoops I said I wasn't going to participate further in this debate. Just wanted to make a further point. Football and its play offs have been held up as an argument for play offs in speedway. I would just like to state the obvious. They do not settle the league champs in that way and they use a neutral venue, something that happens in most sports that use a play off system.

I have given an answer to your question at least as far as the NL is concerned. You have suggested it is for monetary reasons but have not provided any real evidence to support this other than your interpretation of a meeting that you did not attend. I respectfully suggest that this is not evidence but merely an opinion. I have given at least one alternative to your suggestion (This again is merely opinion) and pointed out that the vote was not unanimous so even within the NL there is a difference of opinion on this matter.

 

Damn I said I was not going to rejoin the debate. The problem is I am enjoying it to much. Sigh!! I really must get myself a life.

Please tell me how this adds to the debate?

Football does not need to have play offs for who win the league as teams can go up and down leagues thus meaning that nearly all matches something . Hence why Speedway has them using the top 4 and making that sure most matches mean something that is the whole point Not sure what it matters if the Nl vote was unanimous or not the bottom is that decided to go with it . What is unanimous is that every league uk as well Sweden and Poland used them . I think that speaks for itself on what people want . I doubt your find many moaning about them bar people over 55 years olds who tend to moan about most things and live in the past .

[steve roberts]

Football does not need to have play offs for who win the league as teams can go up and down leagues thus meaning that nearly all matches something . Hence why Speedway has them using the top 4 and making that sure most matches mean something that is the whole point Not sure what it matters if the Nl vote was unanimous or not the bottom is that decided to go with it . What is unanimous is that every league uk as well Sweden and Poland used them . I think that speaks for itself on what people want . I doubt your find many moaning about them bar people over 55 years olds who tend to moan about most things and live in the past .

As a 55 year old I find that rather insulting!

[ColinMills]

As a 55 year old I find that rather insulting!

its the norm from some people

[guitar_art]

Football does not need to have play offs for who win the league as teams can go up and down leagues thus meaning that nearly all matches something . Hence why Speedway has them using the top 4 and making that sure most matches mean something that is the whole point Not sure what it matters if the Nl vote was unanimous or not the bottom is that decided to go with it . What is unanimous is that every league uk as well Sweden and Poland used them . I think that speaks for itself on what people want . I doubt your find many moaning about them bar people over 55 years olds who tend to moan about most things and live in the past .

I don't believe I have moaned. I believe that I have stated my opinion which differs from your own. I have not and will not use language that is insulting to others. Yes I am over 55 and I guess from your post you are not. This means I have seen more than you, have experienced more than you and have more life on which to base my views. However I have to concede this does not always mean I am right. Youth (or age) does not mean that your (or my) view is right/wrong/more appropriate/ etc. So your suggestion that over 55's tend to moan is at best nothing to do with the issue at hand and at worse downright insulting whether you intended that or not. I sincerely hope that you will be over 55 one day as it surely beats the alternative.

 

It matters if the NL vote was unanimous because you asserted that the NL scrapping the play offs was proof that last year failed and that it was for financial reasons. You have provided no proof (because you don't have any, because the promoters themselves are the only one's with this info) that this is so. I in all honesty cannot provide proof to the contrary, However the fact that at least some clubs voted against the return of play offs would seem to suggest that those clubs at least do not agree with your assertion. This is a point you keep avoiding and have not yet argued against. Also I have also provided at least one reason (Conjecture I agree.) that the clubs that voted for the return of the play offs may have done so that is not for financial reasons. Again you have not addressed this point preferring instead to throw insult at a good section of the speedway public.

 

I concede that the other leagues you mention use them. But none of this is pertinent to my central argument which is that play offs are fundamentally unfair because the have a built in bias. Incidentally most of this could be cured by having play offs at a neutral venue as is the norm in most other sports but I understand this would be problematical in speedway.

 

Now look young man. I am happy to have a debate with you. I am happy for my arguments to be criticised. I will even concede points if your arguments win me over (In fact I did just that in the previous paragraph.) or even it the point is well made. But please try to have a debate without resorting to insults. You really don't need to you know. From your posts I understand that you are a literate and intelligent person. Perhaps you should let your intelligence speak for you. The truth is I am enjoying debating with you but would enjoy the process more if we could just stop attacking the poster and concentrate on the posts.

 

Incidentally please don't think this is just aimed at your good self. There have been some posters on here arguing from the same side as me. They have said some things to you that if directed at me I could have been extremely angry. That is the point though isn't it. Once we start getting personal emotion takes over and people just shout at each other and the debate has gone out of the window.

[orion]

Sorry there no insult here ...my point is a good one in that all the people moaning are all of a certain age group ...all are over 55 and scared of change or dont like change and that is the real reason they don't like plays offs gp etc not the poor reasons they put forward ..it's not insult it's a valid point .

 

It you took away over 55's then this topic would lasted about one page .

Edited December 5, 2015 by orion

[guitar_art]

Sorry there no insult here ...my point is a good one in that all the people moaning are all of a certain age group ...all are over 55 and scared of change or dont like change and that is the real reason they don't like plays offs gp etc not the poor reasons they put forward ..it's not insult it's a valid point .

 

It you took away over 55's then this topic would lasted about one page .

Its an interesting point. But I have to say I dont see the evidence and I don't see the relevance. My view has at least as much validacy as yours whatever my age surely? Or to put it another way. The debate should surely be about the issues and not about which age holds which view?

 

As for being scared of change. The play offs have been with us for a good good while now. Surely I am the one arguing for change?

 

I am actually very interested to find the answer to your point.

 

i.e What is the age range of each view

and what is the division between each view. In other words the percentage that hold each view.

[orion]

Its an interesting point. But I have to say I dont see the evidence and I don't see the relevance. My view has at least as much validacy as yours whatever my age surely? Or to put it another way. The debate should surely be about the issues and not about which age holds which view?

 

As for being scared of change. The play offs have been with us for a good good while now. Surely I am the one arguing for change?

 

I am actually very interested to find the answer to your point.

 

i.e What is the age range of each view

and what is the division between each view. In other words the percentage that hold each view.

You don't see the evindence..what age group would you say that the people who have moan about the play offs are on here .like sid and ian etc ? the bottom line without the over 55 this topic would have died a lot ago . unless you can show me otherwise