Play Offs Should They Be Scrapped.?

[ColinMills]

 

But they would if it was a meaningless league match under the old format ?

it wouldn't be meaningless if they could win the league away from home..but knowing theres a play off coming up, it

would change the perceptive

[AlanF]

I will ask you what I asked others. would a Edinburgh fan travel away, knowing they are already in the play offs the following week?

probably not, hence, that specific match would have a lower gate, because Edinburgh fans would wait until the play offs, boosting that attendance. you take from one and give to another?

Maybe not. But then a supporter of a 5th place team riding away to a 4th place team is much more likely to travel if there is a play off place for 4th place. Somebody posted earlier that Wolverhampton had their biggest crowd for an end of season meeting against a Belle Vue team chasing 4th. How many of those would have turned up if there was no reward for finishing 4th?

[ColinMills]

Maybe not. But then a supporter of a 5th place team riding away to a 4th place team is much more likely to travel if there is a play off place for 4th place. Somebody posted earlier that Wolverhampton had their biggest crowd for an end of season meeting against a Belle Vue team chasing 4th. How many of those would have turned up if there was no reward for finishing 4th?

if your 5th your 5th for a reason. but get your point

[BWitcher]

Educate right! i have more chance of walking on the moon than learning much from you.I would be very confident in debating with you on matters on Speedway from the 60s to the present day.I don't try to force my OPINION on someone and 99 per cent of people on here i respect there view.You are very sly you don't loose you rag or swear but you make sly and hurtful remarks but that is a massive WEAKNESS of yours always has been.Have you ever been in charge of a section a group of people? your man management skills are nearly zero going by your attitude.Ok you say and think i am a thicko i can live with that but like i said before on speedway matters i would feel confident debating with you all day long.

 

Simple question Sidney, which you still haven't answered.

 

Why are the National League re-introducing playoffs?

I will ask you what I asked others. would a Edinburgh fan travel away, knowing they are already in the play offs the following week?

probably not, hence, that specific match would have a lower gate, because Edinburgh fans would wait until the play offs, boosting that attendance. you take from one and give to another?

 

As has been explained numerous times..

 

The Premier League and National League have tried both systems. The 'league' which you advocate with an additional cup competition at the end.. and a league with playoffs.

 

They have BOTH decided to go with the playoffs.

 

Ask yourself, why have they chosen to do that?

[Humphrey Appleby]

Possibly. Probably only Neil Watson and Tsunami would be privvy to the actual income and expenditure of running a club.

When I looked at this about 10 or more years ago, the cost of running an Elite League team appeared to be in the order of 400-500k per year. I recall hearing the television money amounted to about 50k per year, plus additional payments when a track was television live. There would be some sponsorship revenue in there, but I doubt that much given the type of 'used car salesmen' sponsors that speedway leverages, so clearly most of the revenue must be coming from gate money and/or a promoter putting their hand in their pocket.

 

Not sure what it would cost to run a Premier League team, but maybe 2/3rds of the cost at a rough guesstimate. However, probably very little or no television money, so gate revenue would be even more important.

[BWitcher]

First of all sidney - your are most definitely not a "thicko". Your Speedway knowledge alone is enough to prove that to me.

 

Secondly - this Thread seems to be more about us all jumping to BW's tune than the original debate. I agree with you that his terminology of "I have been trying to educate you" is arrogant - extremely so.

 

Perhaps he needs a lesson in humility.

 

No, a 'thicko' was actually an insult to those not as blessed as others.

 

Sidney is far worse than that, as is yourself on this topic.

 

Simply too stubborn to even listen to what is being told.

 

Neither of you have come up with ONE point except for 'you don't like the playoffs'. Nobody disputes your right to not liking them. What is disputed and is factually dismissed is your claim that the sport has no credibility due to playoffs and that the majority of fans don't like playoffs. The evidence is there for you to see all around in sports of all different guises.. it is there for you to see in speedway in almost every country it is raced in.. and MOST importantly in our own country where the system you advocate has been tried by both the Premier League and National League and been ditched... because it wasn't as succesful as the playoffs.

 

That is the reality. Now you can continue to act like an obstinate fool if you wish, that is your decision, but you can't and never will change the truth.. which is why the playoffs are here to stay.

[The White Knight]

 

No, a 'thicko' was actually an insult to those not as blessed as others.

 

Sidney is far worse than that, as is yourself on this topic.

 

Simply too stubborn to even listen to what is being told.

 

Neither of you have come up with ONE point except for 'you don't like the playoffs'. Nobody disputes your right to not liking them. What is disputed and is factually dismissed is your claim that the sport has no credibility due to playoffs and that the majority of fans don't like playoffs. The evidence is there for you to see all around in sports of all different guises.. it is there for you to see in speedway in almost every country it is raced in.. and MOST importantly in our own country where the system you advocate has been tried by both the Premier League and National League and been ditched... because it wasn't as succesful as the playoffs.

 

That is the reality. Now you can continue to act like an obstinate fool if you wish, that is your decision, but you can't and never will change the truth.. which is why the playoffs are here to stay.

There is only one person on here doing that BW - and it isn't me. Get a grip man!!!!!!

 

As regard the Play Offs - you may be right about the Fiancial implications - you may be wrong. I don't think that I have ever argued from the Financial angle. I do have a certain sympathy for those who do argue the Financial side though, as I said, you may be right, you may be wrong - you have not proved a thing..

 

The whole thrust of my argument against the Play Offs is that they are intrinsically unfair and lack credibility.

 

That is my considered view - and I don't have to call you names or insult your intelligence to put them forward.

[orion]

There is only one person on here doing that BW - and it isn't me. Get a grip man!!!!!!

 

As regard the Play Offs - you may be right about the Fiancial implications - you may be wrong. I don't think that I have ever argued from the Financial angle. I do have a certain sympathy for those who do argue the Financial side though, as I said, you may be right, you may be wrong - you have not proved a thing..

 

The whole thrust of my argument against the Play Offs is that they are intrinsically unfair and lack credibility.

 

That is my considered view - and I don't have to call you names or insult your intelligence to put them forward.

Lol you spend most this time calling people names on this topic you only have to look back a couple of pages to find them ...the moment you get into a debate are don't like what the other person is saying you start . ....yet again another lie from you .

Edited December 4, 2015 by orion

[stratton]

No, a 'thicko' was actually an insult to those not as blessed as others.

 

Sidney is far worse than that, as is yourself on this topic.

 

Simply too stubborn to even listen to what is being told.

 

Neither of you have come up with ONE point except for 'you don't like the playoffs'. Nobody disputes your right to not liking them. What is disputed and is factually dismissed is your claim that the sport has no credibility due to playoffs and that the majority of fans don't like playoffs. The evidence is there for you to see all around in sports of all different guises.. it is there for you to see in speedway in almost every country it is raced in.. and MOST importantly in our own country where the system you advocate has been tried by both the Premier League and National League and been ditched... because it wasn't as succesful as the playoffs.

 

That is the reality. Now you can continue to act like an obstinate fool if you wish, that is your decision, but you can't and never will change the truth.. which is why the playoffs are here to stay.

Are you for real? for me you are a clown you have no idea what the word COMPROMISE means try to understand what others think it might help.On the forum you have people who i respect, i know they know they're stuff on speedway matters you are lacking but you will never change sad really. Edited December 4, 2015 by sidney

[BWitcher]

intrinsically unfair and lack credibility.

 

That is my considered view - and I don't have to call you names or insult your intelligence to put them forward.

 

There you go again.. 'Unfair' and 'Credibility'.

 

We'll look at unfair first shall we.

 

The rules of the sport are agreed upon by all promoters and voted in. Every team knows the rules and the method used to determine the champions. That is not unfair. Unfair would be if halfway through a season rules were changed.

 

Now, I think we can all agree that speedway has a 'Credibility' problem. So let's analyse things and see if we can work out why that is.

 

The best way to do that is to take a group of sports. We'll take 4 in this case.

 

Speedway

Football

Rugby Union

Rugby League.

 

Which of these sports has 'credibility' issues according to the general sporting fan? Not football, not Rugby Union, not Rugby League... but Speedway does. So, we have to find out what makes speedway different.

 

The first topic we will address is 'playoffs'.

 

Do any of these sports have play-offs?

 

Yes they do. All 4 of them. However, only speedway has 'credibility issues'.

 

If playoffs were the cause the other sports would suffer credibility issues too.

 

So play-offs isn't the cause.

 

Another topic that is sometimes brought up is the points system used in speedway, i.e. gaining extra pts for away wins by a certain margin.

 

Do any of the other sports have strange rules in this area? Yes they do. Rugby gives bonus pts depending upon the tries you have scored.. Football has the away goals rule. Do they effect credibility? No they don't.

 

So we can confine the points system to the not a problem bin also.

 

Next up we will look at the issue of guests and missing riders.

 

Now what do we find here? You don't see players missing matches for their clubs in football or the rugbys because they are playing for another team in the same country.. or indeed another team in another country (internationals excepted of course). Nor do you see players from other clubs playing for a team for the night.

 

Hence, here we have a major difference and plausible reason for credibility problems within the sport of speedway.

 

Next up we will look at the issue of tactical rides/double points.

 

Does such a system exist in the other sports that allows one team if losing to gain an advantage? No it doesn't, so again we have a key difference and another plausible reason for credibility problems within the sport of speedway.

 

 

 

So quite simply from a very simple 5 minute analysis we've established that the following do not cause an issue:-

 

Playoffs

Points System

 

The following DO cause a credibility issue

 

Guests

Tactical Rides/Double Points.

[guitar_art]

All the surveys have been done when clubs etc do market research etc to see what the customer wants ...and every time the plays offs are wanted ..if people never went because they thought it was unfair and the crowds were dropping because of that then all these over sports were have lost all these fans as well ..so the fact they is not the case shows it's a only in speedway myth .

 

Teams with deep pockets are always likely to do well no matter what the format so another void point just like your point about home track advantage ..when was the last who won the el play offs because of home track advantage ? as the for unfair bit people know the rules before hand so bar a group of over 55 years nearly everyone has long forgotten about it being unfair because quite clearly its not .

 

The burden of proof is on you as the play offs are already in place and it's you who want to change them . and as of yet not one person has put one reason forward why the crowds would be bigger without them and why fans would start watching matches that have nothing riding on them .

If last years gold cup had been a play off final Birmingham would not have been crowned champions even though we were the best team over the season. This would have been for two reason. a) late and astute signing by Eastbourne i.e Money. and home track advantage. All of that is fact.

 

Want to answer this and an earlier post in full as I am aware there are gaps in my argument. But the shops and late night Christmas shopping is unfortunately calling. Wish me luck.

[BWitcher]

If last years gold cup had been a play off final Birmingham would not have been crowned champions even though we were the best team over the season. This would have been for two reason. a) late and astute signing by Eastbourne i.e Money. and home track advantage. All of that is fact.

 

Want to answer this and an earlier post in full as I am aware there are gaps in my argument. But the shops and late night Christmas shopping is unfortunately calling. Wish me luck.

 

Birmingham not have a home track then I take it?

 

That's a ridiculous argument.

 

Last years Gold Cup wasn't a play off final so Birmingham were champions. Perfectly fair by the rules of the sport for that season.

 

This year the champions will be the winners of the playoffs, whoever wins them are champions. Again, perfectly fair by the rules of the sport for that season.

[orion]

If last years gold cup had been a play off final Birmingham would not have been crowned champions even though we were the best team over the season. This would have been for two reason. a) late and astute signing by Eastbourne i.e Money. and home track advantage. All of that is fact.

 

Want to answer this and an earlier post in full as I am aware there are gaps in my argument. But the shops and late night Christmas shopping is unfortunately calling. Wish me luck.

 

If last years gold cup had been a play off final Birmingham would not have been crowned champions even though we were the best team over the season. This would have been for two reason. a) late and astute signing by Eastbourne i.e Money. and home track advantage. All of that is fact.

 

Want to answer this and an earlier post in full as I am aware there are gaps in my argument. But the shops and late night Christmas shopping is unfortunately calling. Wish me luck.

The gold cup was not a play off so another void point ...nothing Stopping Birmingham making a astute signing before end of the season

[stratton]

Oh no Witcher's son appears, where is your CONCRETE evidence financially that the Play /offs are ok where does this fit in with the UP FRONT SKY money.???

[BWitcher]

Oh no Witcher's son appears, where is your CONCRETE evidence financially that the Play /offs are ok where does this fit in with the UP FRONT SKY money.???

 

Sidney, I've asked you a polite question.

 

Why do you think the National League have decided to re-introduce playoffs this year?

[The White Knight]

Lol you spend most this time calling people names on this topic you only have to look back a couple of pages to find them ...the moment you get into a debate are don't like what the other person is saying you start . ....yet again another lie from you .

Aaahhh!!

 

Hello Penfold. :rofl: Your back. :party:

 

Is that all you can say? Call me a liar.

[orion]

Aaahhh!!

 

Hello Penfold. :rofl: Your back. :party:

 

Is that all you can say? Call me a liar. :rofl:C

Classic he makes a post about not calling people names ..and his next post is yet again more name calling ....I don't need to call you a liar as your above post shows it .

Oh no Witcher's son appears, where is your CONCRETE evidence financially that the Play /offs are ok where does this fit in with the UP FRONT SKY money.???

You have been given evidence time and time again but sadly you can't digest it ...we have ask you very nicely why the crowds and money would be better without the play offs many times ...sadly you have not been able to answer a simple question

[stratton]

Classic he makes a post about not calling people names ..and his next post is yet again more name calling ....I don't need to call you a liar as your above post shows it .

Give your dad a buzz because you never TRY to debate on your own you need a bit of help.The few Swindon fans who i know who know you???? tell me you ent got a clue certainly on the history of Swindon Speedway.!!?? Edited December 4, 2015 by sidney

[The White Knight]

Classic he makes a post about not calling people names ..and his next post is yet again more name calling ....I don't need to call you a liar as your above post shows it .

You have been given evidence time and time again but sadly you can't digest it ...we have ask you very nicely why the crowds and money would be better without the play offs many times ...sadly you have not been able to answer a simple question

Ohhhh - Penfold.

 

Penfold isn't lying - it is just gently taking the mickey. Unfortunately you seem to take that as lying. I obviously overestimated your intelligence. I'm sorry about that.

 

How is Dangermouse these days?

[BWitcher]

Very sad that despite making constructive posts and asking genuine questions all Sidney and WK can do is continue to hurl insults.

 

I'll try one more time to see if genuine debate can be engaged with either of you.

 

Why do you think the National League have re-introduced playoffs?