Play Offs Should They Be Scrapped.?

[ColinMills]

 

It doesn't happen very often. That's why you get 4 x more people come along to the playoff final.

 

If they thought it was unfair they wouldn't be there, like your lad.

 

They likely had a bunch of old codgers telling them that their sons had stopped going to speedway because of the playoffs.. so thought lets try the old failed system again.. it didn't take them long to realise it was a load of cobblers and changed back.

 

One thing I will agree on though DAC is the attendances during the season won't be that much different whichever system is in place and will continue to decline until the sport sorts other issues out. We're really arguing over something that isn't particularly important.

 

Surely you agree that a far more important issue is teams constantly missing riders due to other clubs in the UK riding on the same night? Something that could quite easily be fixed.

how on earth was the old system a failure? I witnessed "4" league title nights. All packed. Who were the last non play off league champions? id suggest youcheck that evening!

was march to September as dead as it is now with the play off system?? you argue the last 2 weeks, I will argue the first 6 months!!

[orion]

I fail to see what point you are making here. The conversation I reported happened and if it happened once it could and probably has more than once.

 

I was not holding this conversation as proof of anything other than countering arguments that this issue is in some way an age related one with oldies like myself on one side of the argument and young people on the other side.

 

Whichever side of the argument you come down on it is not as simple as that there are people of all age groups sharing differing opinions. My suspicion (and I have only a suspicion) is that the majority are of the view that play offs are Unfair. It is my personal view that over time unfairness can cause fans to drift away. I am not saying (because that would be stupid) that it is the only reason fans drift away. In fact I think there are other issues far more important in that regard.

 

I will finish with this observation.

 

In all of my posts on this subject I have tried, I think successfully, not to resort to name calling, finger pointing, ridiculing, bad temper and so on. Others, from both sides of the debate, have failed to do so. If you don't treat your fellow posters with respect, even in the face of provocation, then as far as I am concerned you have nothing of any consequence to say. (Please understand I use the word 'you' in its plural definition and I am not making a direct reference to the poster I have quoted above.)

Is a easy point to make ..why would someone not want go to speedway because the play offs were boring but would go to a normal league match when there nothing to race for ...if he did say that is makes no sense or logic

 

If a fan never went because he thought the play offs were unfair then in all sports that used the plays offs would have failed and the fans would have gone away but as we have seen that is clearly not the case. so what you say is 100 % untrue . unless it's another only in speedway myth...

 

I never got this unfair bit anyhow ...as everyone knows the rules before hand .

how on earth was the old system a failure? I witnessed "4" league title nights. All packed. Who were the last non play off league champions? id suggest youcheck that evening!

was march to September as dead as it is now with the play off system?? you argue the last 2 weeks, I will argue the first 6 months!!

 

 

 

was march to September as dead as it is now with the play off system?? you argue the last 2 weeks, I will argue the first 6 months!!

So we get to the same question again ..without the plays offs why would these matches between march to September get bigger crowds ?

Edited December 4, 2015 by orion

[ColinMills]

Is a easy point to make ..why would someone not want go to speedway because the play offs were boring but would go in a normal league match when there nothing to race for ...if he did say that is makes no sense or logic

 

If a fan never went because he thought the play offs were unfair then in all sports that used the plays offs would have failed and the fans would have gone away but as we have seen that is clearly not the case. so what you say is 100 % untrue . unless it's another only in speedway myth...

 

I never got this unfair bit anyhow ...as everyone knows the rules before hand .

 

 

So we get to the same question again ..without the plays offs why would these matches between march to September get bigger crowds ?

I could answer that, but as we both know, you made a WRONG allegation towards me. if and only when you

admit that, I will answer any question you wish to put to me. hope you find that a polite reply?

[orion]

I could answer that, but as we both know, you made a WRONG allegation towards me. if and only when you

admit that, I will answer any question you wish to put to me. hope you find that a polite reply?

No you can't answer it ..it's one thing that has been clear on the whole subject .

[ColinMills]

No you can't answer it ..it's one thing that has been clear on the whole subject .

you do realise you don't help your cause when everyone knows you were found out? by refusing to admit

you are wrong makes all your other points void.

[BWitcher]

how on earth was the old system a failure? I witnessed "4" league title nights. All packed. Who were the last non play off league champions? id suggest youcheck that evening!was march to September as dead as it is now with the play off system?? you argue the last 2 weeks, I will argue the first 6 months!!

Because under the old system 75 percent of the sports fans stopped attending.

 

And what you seem to be failing to grasp is, right now, in the current era, the old system has been tried by both the premier league and national league. Both have given up on it and returned to playoffs.

Edited December 4, 2015 by BWitcher

[stratton]

Not again ...how many more times ? explain without the play offs how these matches would somehow have bigger crowds and have no losses ...we have made it simple for you time and time again come with no answer ? how hard can it be ?

You are like a dog with a bone who won't let go, with all your huff and puff you still CAN'T come up with any real concrete financial evidence to back up your claim.

[guitar_art]

You are like a dog with a bone who won't let go, with all your huff and puff you still CAN'T come up with any real concrete financial evidence to back up your claim.

The only people who can do that are the club owners themselves. So although I don't agree with Orion on this matter I think its unhelpful to use this as an argument. I feel the same when Orion says that those who do not want play offs need to show proof. Sorry Orion but as far as I am concerned the burden of proof lies on the other side of the argument.

 

Orion (as far as I can gather and I apologise if I have this wrong) seems to believe that more supporters want play offs than don't. I have a feeling that it is the other way round. May I suggest that we run a pole on that very question? I won't have time to set it up until tommorow so if anyone else wants to start one please feel free. I would be very interested in the result. Of course whatever happens in such a pole does not mean one side is right and one side is wrong it just shows the strength of feeling on either side.

Because under the old system 75 percent of the sports fans stopped attending.

 

And what you seem to be failing to grasp is, right now, in the current era, the old system has been tried by both the premier league and national league. Both have given up on it and returned to playoffs.

I have seen video of the early days of the EL and there certainly seemed to be many more fans there than now. Those fans have been lost while play offs were functioning. Please understand that I am not holding this up as proof one way of the other. Just making the case that this is far less black and white than either side is saying. However my premise is simply that the play offs are an unfair way to decide a league competition. It gives unfair advantage to clubs with deep pockets and those with greater home track advantage. Eastbourne fans can come on here and fairly say things such as 'its a track with four corners' and 'the league(s) are stronger for having variety' and so on. All of these are valid and fair statements. However it cannot be denied (really it can't) that some tracks hold a greater advantage than others. Less so as you move up through the leagues I will grant you. If such tracks win a league title over the course of a season then good luck to them and no moaning from me. But it will always leave a sour taste in the mouth if my club finishes top over a season (and I am not saying they will, although so far so good in the team building stakes.) and then loses in a final because a) the team that wins brought in a ringer at the last moment or we cant compete on their track while they can on our track.

 

I understand what you have stated about systems being tried and rejected. I grasp that fully. It does not mean that it is a fair way of deciding a league. It isn't for the reasons that I have stated. It is my opinion that eventually unfairness (even perceived unfairness and more about that in a moment.) will eventually wear down the goodwill of supporters. And just because play offs work financially in the now (and I don't concede that point) does not mean they will continue to work.

 

Even it that is not true that play offs are unfair (and again I do not concede that point) the very perception that this could be true is enough to hack people off. And that, if I may suggest, is the biggest problem that our sport has. A problem of perception. Because of the way it is run we can and have had doubts about decisions that do and don't go our way. We have all had doubt at some time or other along those lines. Not because things are necessarily so but because the way the sport is run means they are open to allegations such as these and the perception grows bigger that things are not how they should be. And lets be honest here. These decision are not and never have been taken for the good of the sport. They are taken because of individual clubs own needs. That is the way our sport is run and why we have ALL everyone of us had problems with perception over the years.

 

Think I'll shut up now lol.

Edited December 4, 2015 by guitar_art

[steve roberts]

I fail to see what point you are making here. The conversation I reported happened and if it happened once it could and probably has more than once.

 

I was not holding this conversation as proof of anything other than countering arguments that this issue is in some way an age related one with oldies like myself on one side of the argument and young people on the other side.

 

Whichever side of the argument you come down on it is not as simple as that there are people of all age groups sharing differing opinions. My suspicion (and I have only a suspicion) is that the majority are of the view that play offs are Unfair. It is my personal view that over time unfairness can cause fans to drift away. I am not saying (because that would be stupid) that it is the only reason fans drift away. In fact I think there are other issues far more important in that regard.

 

I will finish with this observation.

 

In all of my posts on this subject I have tried, I think successfully, not to resort to name calling, finger pointing, ridiculing, bad temper and so on. Others, from both sides of the debate, have failed to do so. If you don't treat your fellow posters with respect, even in the face of provocation, then as far as I am concerned you have nothing of any consequence to say. (Please understand I use the word 'you' in its plural definition and I am not making a direct reference to the poster I have quoted above.)

I commented similar earlier on this never ending, circulating, on-going, going round in circles thread, that contributors should adhere to some basic rules. It's ironic that only yesterday and today a representative of the Labour Party has seriously questioned open abuse on social media whereby people who 'hide behind a keyboard' feel that they can be more abusive than if talking to someone 'face to face'. I'm not suggested for one minute that contributors on this forum are any way as abusive as comments received by certain MPs but surely we should think carefully before placing comments, however strongly felt, and show due respect to fellow contributors (and a certain amount of humility wouldn't go amiss either).

[ColinMills]

don't you just notice the aggressiveness of the other sides view differently?..they wont accept another viewpoint on this.

[BWitcher]

Clowns, old codgers, the point is still the same, it must have been a pretty desperate situation to take a chance on what a clown or an old codger recommends. Why was it so desperate?

 

Because of the other reasons many folk have highlighted.

 

Far too many missing riders in meetings.

Disjointed fixture list.

Poor promotion/presentation.

Manipulation of rules.

 

However, rather than address those important issues which would have an impact they try the method advocated on here of returning to a system that wasn't working before. Of course, it still didn't work and was worse than what they had changed too.. so they changed back.

 

Will it fix the sports problems? No it won't.. not until the main issues are addressed.

 

It's not complicated.

 

However it shows, as has been repeated ad nauseam, the system advocated by a few on here has been given its chance and it has failed.

 

Game over.

[ColinMills]

does GAME OVER mean the same as END OF or DISCUSSION CLOSED?..You do like to feel in control on this subject?

[BWitcher]

I commented similar earlier on this never ending, circulating, on-going, going round in circles thread, that contributors should adhere to some basic rules. It's ironic that only yesterday and today a representative of the Labour Party has seriously questioned open abuse on social media whereby people who 'hide behind a keyboard' feel that they can be more abusive than if talking to someone 'face to face'. I'm not suggested for one minute that contributors on this forum are any way as abusive as comments received by certain MPs but surely we should think carefully before placing comments, however strongly felt, and show due respect to fellow contributors (and a certain amount of humility wouldn't go amiss either).

 

When people make posts that deserve some respect then I agree.

 

However we have three or four posters on here who quite simply cannot process information. They cannot see what is in front of their face.

 

Their idea has been TRIED and FAILED. No supposition, no if's, but's or maybe's... their system has been scrapped as of 2nd December.

 

They wanted hard and fast evidence, the National League has provided it.

 

Yet none of them even acknowledge it and blindly ignore what is happening in the real world and continue to post the same thing over and over and over.

 

Such posts deserve no respect, indeed such posts are essentially trolling and against forum rules.

 

Throw in that one of them is a multiple account holder flagrantly flouting forum rules because he thinks he is clever and you get this mess.

 

It has nothing to do with being a keyboard warrior, what is being said on here is tame compared to what would happen in any business environment if such actions were displayed.

does GAME OVER mean the same as END OF or DISCUSSION CLOSED?..You do like to feel in control on this subject?

 

I am in control, as evidenced by real life events.

 

Most recently backed up on the 2nd December when the National League having tried your system of the winners of the league being champions and staging a Gold Cup at the end of the season abandoned it because it was WORSE.

 

So again, not me who is saying it.. but real life events.

The only people who can do that are the club owners themselves. So although I don't agree with Orion on this matter I think its unhelpful to use this as an argument. I feel the same when Orion says that those who do not want play offs need to show proof. Sorry Orion but as far as I am concerned the burden of proof lies on the other side of the argument.

 

Orion (as far as I can gather and I apologise if I have this wrong) seems to believe that more supporters want play offs than don't. I have a feeling that it is the other way round. May I suggest that we run a pole on that very question? I won't have time to set it up until tommorow so if anyone else wants to start one please feel free. I would be very interested in the result. Of course whatever happens in such a pole does not mean one side is right and one side is wrong it just shows the strength of feeling on either side.

I have seen video of the early days of the EL and there certainly seemed to be many more fans there than now. Those fans have been lost while play offs were functioning. Please understand that I am not holding this up as proof one way of the other. Just making the case that this is far less black and white than either side is saying. However my premise is simply that the play offs are an unfair way to decide a league competition. It gives unfair advantage to clubs with deep pockets and those with greater home track advantage. Eastbourne fans can come on here and fairly say things such as 'its a track with four corners' and 'the league(s) are stronger for having variety' and so on. All of these are valid and fair statements. However it cannot be denied (really it can't) that some tracks hold a greater advantage than others. Less so as you move up through the leagues I will grant you. If such tracks win a league title over the course of a season then good luck to them and no moaning from me. But it will always leave a sour taste in the mouth if my club finishes top over a season (and I am not saying they will, although so far so good in the team building stakes.) and then loses in a final because a) the team that wins brought in a ringer at the last moment or we cant compete on their track while they can on our track.

 

I understand what you have stated about systems being tried and rejected. I grasp that fully. It does not mean that it is a fair way of deciding a league. It isn't for the reasons that I have stated. It is my opinion that eventually unfairness (even perceived unfairness and more about that in a moment.) will eventually wear down the goodwill of supporters. And just because play offs work financially in the now (and I don't concede that point) does not mean they will continue to work.

 

Even it that is not true that play offs are unfair (and again I do not concede that point) the very perception that this could be true is enough to hack people off. And that, if I may suggest, is the biggest problem that our sport has. A problem of perception. Because of the way it is run we can and have had doubts about decisions that do and don't go our way. We have all had doubt at some time or other along those lines. Not because things are necessarily so but because the way the sport is run means they are open to allegations such as these and the perception grows bigger that things are not how they should be. And lets be honest here. These decision are not and never have been taken for the good of the sport. They are taken because of individual clubs own needs. That is the way our sport is run and why we have ALL everyone of us had problems with perception over the years.

 

Think I'll shut up now lol.

 

Another post that is for the children's section.

 

You admit playoffs work financially but then claims fans won't go because they are unfair!

 

You do realise that playoffs exist in many, many sports, none of which have any problems with perception or being unfair.

 

Does Rugby Union have a problem with perception because they use playoffs? No they're enjoying record crowds.

 

Does Rugby League have a problem? No.

 

Do people stop going to football because the team in 6th placed in the Championship got promoted to the Premier League over the team in 3rd? No.

 

Do any of the multitude of other sports that use playoffs have problems? No

 

Quite simply. as is evidenced by REAL LIFE you're making things up in an attempt to form an argument.

Edited December 4, 2015 by BWitcher

[guitar_art]

I am currently at work so cannot reply in full. But I will later. I will say this for now. I find it sad you cannot make your point such as it is without resorting to name calling. When I reply I will do so without resorting to such tactics please try to calm down and do so yourself bewitcher.

[orion]

The only people who can do that are the club owners themselves. So although I don't agree with Orion on this matter I think its unhelpful to use this as an argument. I feel the same when Orion says that those who do not want play offs need to show proof. Sorry Orion but as far as I am concerned the burden of proof lies on the other side of the argument.

 

Orion (as far as I can gather and I apologise if I have this wrong) seems to believe that more supporters want play offs than don't. I have a feeling that it is the other way round. May I suggest that we run a pole on that very question? I won't have time to set it up until tommorow so if anyone else wants to start one please feel free. I would be very interested in the result. Of course whatever happens in such a pole does not mean one side is right and one side is wrong it just shows the strength of feeling on either side.

I have seen video of the early days of the EL and there certainly seemed to be many more fans there than now. Those fans have been lost while play offs were functioning. Please understand that I am not holding this up as proof one way of the other. Just making the case that this is far less black and white than either side is saying. However my premise is simply that the play offs are an unfair way to decide a league competition. It gives unfair advantage to clubs with deep pockets and those with greater home track advantage. Eastbourne fans can come on here and fairly say things such as 'its a track with four corners' and 'the league(s) are stronger for having variety' and so on. All of these are valid and fair statements. However it cannot be denied (really it can't) that some tracks hold a greater advantage than others. Less so as you move up through the leagues I will grant you. If such tracks win a league title over the course of a season then good luck to them and no moaning from me. But it will always leave a sour taste in the mouth if my club finishes top over a season (and I am not saying they will, although so far so good in the team building stakes.) and then loses in a final because a) the team that wins brought in a ringer at the last moment or we cant compete on their track while they can on our track.

 

I understand what you have stated about systems being tried and rejected. I grasp that fully. It does not mean that it is a fair way of deciding a league. It isn't for the reasons that I have stated. It is my opinion that eventually unfairness (even perceived unfairness and more about that in a moment.) will eventually wear down the goodwill of supporters. And just because play offs work financially in the now (and I don't concede that point) does not mean they will continue to work.

 

Even it that is not true that play offs are unfair (and again I do not concede that point) the very perception that this could be true is enough to hack people off. And that, if I may suggest, is the biggest problem that our sport has. A problem of perception. Because of the way it is run we can and have had doubts about decisions that do and don't go our way. We have all had doubt at some time or other along those lines. Not because things are necessarily so but because the way the sport is run means they are open to allegations such as these and the perception grows bigger that things are not how they should be. And lets be honest here. These decision are not and never have been taken for the good of the sport. They are taken because of individual clubs own needs. That is the way our sport is run and why we have ALL everyone of us had problems with perception over the years.

 

Think I'll shut up now lol.

All the surveys have been done when clubs etc do market research etc to see what the customer wants ...and every time the plays offs are wanted ..if people never went because they thought it was unfair and the crowds were dropping because of that then all these over sports were have lost all these fans as well ..so the fact they is not the case shows it's a only in speedway myth .

 

Teams with deep pockets are always likely to do well no matter what the format so another void point just like your point about home track advantage ..when was the last who won the el play offs because of home track advantage ? as the for unfair bit people know the rules before hand so bar a group of over 55 years nearly everyone has long forgotten about it being unfair because quite clearly its not .

 

The burden of proof is on you as the play offs are already in place and it's you who want to change them . and as of yet not one person has put one reason forward why the crowds would be bigger without them and why fans would start watching matches that have nothing riding on them .

[AlanF]

I thinks that people on both sides of the argument are taking very polarized positions, and as is usually the case, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

Issue 1: Are the playoffs fair? Clearly the purist way of finding the team over the course of a season is to play everybody home and away and the team with the most points are champions.

 

Issue 2: Do the promoters make more / lose less by having the playoffs? It seems fairly clear to me that they do, evidenced by the big crowds at playoffs.

 

A lot of the argument seems to be where one issue is used to "prove" the other, when, in my opinion, they are totally separate issues.

 

The only poll that ultimately counts is the number of clicks on the turnstiles. Given the choice between a purist format and making money, the promoters will always choose the latter, as owners do in every other sport, so that is not a knock on the promoters.

[BWitcher]

Absolutely 100% spot on Alan F.. and nobody has ever denied Issue 1.

 

The problem on this thread is a few folk who think Issue 1 means the sport is losing money... when Issue 2 quite clearly shows that not to be the case.

[ch958]

Absolutely 100% spot on Alan F.. and nobody has ever denied Issue 1.

 

The problem on this thread is a few folk who think Issue 1 means the sport is losing money... when Issue 2 quite clearly shows that not to be the case.

in all honesty i doubt there's any more to say - Alan F has it in a nutshell

unfortunately more will be said

[Humphrey Appleby]

Issue 1: Are the playoffs fair? Clearly the purist way of finding the team over the course of a season is to play everybody home and away and the team with the most points are champions.

I'd rather teams race each other home and away than 'play', but this also pre-supposes teams are at full strength for every match. In reality, riders go AWOL for all sorts of reasons during the season, then you have all sorts of weird and wonderful replacements who actually ride for other teams and who could potentially distort the table.

 

So whereas you'd expect a 28-match programme to be 'fairer' than deciding a title over (say) 4 matches, in reality the 'playoffs' are just an extension of what's not an inherently fair process to begin with.

[stratton]

I thinks that people on both sides of the argument are taking very polarized positions, and as is usually the case, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Issue 1: Are the playoffs fair? Clearly the purist way of finding the team over the course of a season is to play everybody home and away and the team with the most points are champions.

Issue 2: Do the promoters make more / lose less by having the playoffs? It seems fairly clear to me that they do, evidenced by the big crowds at playoffs.

A lot of the argument seems to be where one issue is used to "prove" the other, when, in my opinion, they are totally separate issues.

The only poll that ultimately counts is the number of clicks on the turnstiles. Given the choice between a purist format and making money, the promoters will always choose the latter, as owners do in every other sport, so that is not a knock on the promoters.

Would it be a different issue maybe? without the up front sky money?