ColinMills Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 BW you mentioned the 6 man team, were you a fan of that season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 BW you mentioned the 6 man team, were you a fan of that season? Not at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Not at all. was a year witches cleaned up, from memory I believe ko cup had 4,000 crowd against Coventry, and a large crowd against lowly Swindon to win the league, also a big craven shield final night, despite those nights (I believe) there wasn't a profit (or any) made from that season..obviously with gollob/ricko/Louis the wage bill would of been high, but lots didn't like the walk overs, week after week Edited December 2, 2015 by ColinMills 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) was a year witches cleaned up, from memory I believe ko cup had 4,000 crowd against Coventry, and a large crowd against lowly Swindon to win the league, also a big craven shield final night, despite those nights (I believe) there wasn't a profit (or any) made from that season..obviously with gollob/ricko/Louis the wage bill would of been high, but lots didn't like the walk overs, week after week Yes Ipswich were very fortunate in being able to declare Tomasz Gollob in their line up on a ridiculously low assessed average (7.5 if I recall) considering that he was an established 'star' at the time (something that even sadly missed John Berry questioned in one of his books and/or columns) The dreaded assessed average...always manipulated to suit. I guess that most teams have been guilty over the years and it was a loop hole many promoters took advantage of. However there was downsides also. I remember that both Lukas and Ales Dryml being saddled with 7 point averages when still relatively inexperienced. Edited December 2, 2015 by steve roberts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Dont you start you are usually ok eaces1? what FACT are you on about? in this instance it was that 2+2 does not equal 5. If you want to just facts then the fact is the fa pl has seen attendance's increase and over the same period speedway has seen a significant fall. On that basis I stand by my earlier post, it is backed up by facts. What exactly has speedway got to lose by copying the fa pl model? The Pl model. So that would be six fgure weekly salaries, 30k+ all seater stadiums, multi million/billion dollar sugar daddies, 30+quid tickets for standard league matches, having worldwide merchandise outlets, holding out for 8 digit (per club) annual tv revenues etc. You are rght, I can't possibly see anything that could go wrong with speedway trying to use that model, I'm quite disapointed that Belle Vue didn't build a 60k seater, are charging only a few hundred quid for season ticket, and only paying 3k per meeting for their best performer - drop Mort a note, maybe they can change their business model. I assume in this brave new world, riders would no longer wear helmets, as perhaps that is the secret to the FA PL success, and not the league structure. Kyle Newman had the right idea. I'd suggest also that you let the NFL know that the Super Bowl should be cancelled, as they are using a failed model. Let the IOC know they should be suing a league system to determine medalists. Sepp is moing aside, so nows the opportunity to stand for FIFA president and get rid of the world cup and replace it with a league event. Champions LEague - failed model, get rid of those knock out rounds and final - commercial disaster or what! I'll get onto the NZRFU, and tell them that the current Super Rugby model is perpetuating mediocrity. Sorted! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 in this instance it was that 2+2 does not equal 5. The Pl model. So that would be six fgure weekly salaries, 30k+ all seater stadiums, multi million/billion dollar sugar daddies, 30+quid tickets for standard league matches, having worldwide merchandise outlets, holding out for 8 digit (per club) annual tv revenues etc. You are rght, I can't possibly see anything that could go wrong with speedway trying to use that model, I'm quite disapointed that Belle Vue didn't build a 60k seater, are charging only a few hundred quid for season ticket, and only paying 3k per meeting for their best performer - drop Mort a note, maybe they can change their business model. I assume in this brave new world, riders would no longer wear helmets, as perhaps that is the secret to the FA PL success, and not the league structure. Kyle Newman had the right idea. I'd suggest also that you let the NFL know that the Super Bowl should be cancelled, as they are using a failed model. Let the IOC know they should be suing a league system to determine medalists. Sepp is moing aside, so nows the opportunity to stand for FIFA president and get rid of the world cup and replace it with a league event. Champions LEague - failed model, get rid of those knock out rounds and final - commercial disaster or what! I'll get onto the NZRFU, and tell them that the current Super Rugby model is perpetuating mediocrity. Sorted! Good work Aces, I'll get onto the Aviva Premiership also... http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/31712.php#.Vl7VkbsnyUk#pKdpuqxd4dS1pW7A.97 Ignore that.. especially this part.. "Our clubs have made a huge effort to build their supporter base not only by creating showpiece events to bring new fans to the game but also by working hard to enhance the matchday experience at regular season games. It is clear from these figures that supporters have voted with their feet, it's a great achievement and we're looking forward to a compelling set of Aviva Premiership Rugby semi-finals this weekend." Damn those showpiece events they have created... those pesky things called playoffs. Of course the key also lies in this bit.. "also by working hard to enhance the matchday experience at regular season games" which is what some of us have been saying all along. Speedway has the play-offs, they work. Now it has to work on the second part of the equation as other sports have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Speedway has the play-offs, they work. Now it has to work on the second part of the equation as other sports have done. Well they only work if you are judging success in the context of thousands of extra fans through the turnstiles, both during the regular season and bumper crowds for the final. They only work if you consider generating £10,000s of extra revenue, possibly keeping clubs alive to be successful. If you consider success as keeping a couple of soppy old duffers happy then they have failed. Interesting that Fred likes the FA premiership model. Is this the model that despite £billions of TV money and gate receipts almost all clubs are virtually trading insolvent, Is this the model that requires a stream of mugs ready to do their wedge in on a hobby horse to keep it in any way sustainable. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Good attempt to hide yourself and you've resisted the temptation to use your old favourite phrases of 'pokc' and 'sycophants'. Welcome back to the forum Drop a Cog. It won't be long before you are forced to re-invent yourself again as everyone sees through your trolling ways. I notice you did slip up though with your post on the EL heat format, accidentally brought up the 'cup' again in reference to the playoffs. Good effort though as I said. Edited to add:- Just in case there is any doubt.. here is the final post made by Drop a Cog 02 October 2015 - 03:36 PM SCB, on 30 Sept 2015 - 10:10 AM, said: But if Lemo is correct that he contacted the referee to tell him.... I get the referee could miss it, thats fair enough and easy enough but when he was informed....Anyway, has anyone seen Drop a Cog? I'm worried he's had a heart attack due to the play-offs! Or has got lost in that big crowd on Monday?! Banned until today, the quoted phrase was bigoted morons'? and the linked post washttp://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=80307&findpost=2683526I did try and contact Phil hine but he didn't have the balls or manners to reply, even via Facebook.See ya! So as you can see, after a ban for calling folk morons (which he has done as Fred Flange above) he announced he was leaving the forum.. the date 2nd October 2015. Now, what date did Fred Flange join the forum... oh my! Its 2nd October 2015. Now, one wonders, to quote drop a cog, is he will have 'the balls' to admit it. Edited December 2, 2015 by BWitcher 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 No, the problem isn't anything to do with 'know-alls'. i) Being intelligent and having an ability to put forward a coherent argument backed with solid facts is not being a know all. ii) I have been wrong many times and hold my hand up every time and accept it. However I will never state I am wrong when I'm not. You will never here an intelligent person just simply state something is there opinion and hide behind that. They will always back it up with coherent, logical information. An opinion is utterly worthless without that and those who fail to understand that do not belong in intelligent debate. Harsh, but true. Nobody has questioned your opinion that you don't like the playoffs. Nobody has questioned your opinion that a fairer sporting method to decide champions is the team that tops the league. iii) What is questioned is your and others ridiculous assertion that the playoffs are responsible for declining crowds. You've been asked many times to back that up with solid evidence and have been unable to do so. i) That is exactly the point BW - we are both arguing about something where there is NO solid facts. I cannot, and indeed have not stated that the Crowds would be better without the Play Offs because I cannot produce hard evidence that I am right - equally, you cannot produce hard evidence that you are right. What you can do, and this I concede, is correctly state, as you have done, that a lot of people attend the Play Offs themselves - what you cannot prove, and neither can I, is how Speedway is effected overall by Attendances against Play Offs. All I can do is to state accurately that Crowds, in general, have plummeted since the advent of the Play Offs. All you can say is that, as I said, the Play Offs are well attended. I hope this explains my position and also answers your third question (iii). ii) I accept your word that you have apologised/admitted to being wrong in the past. I certainly cannot remember seeing it happen. Apologies for the minor Edits to your Post (adding numbers) - I thought it was the best way of answering it. At least you are not arguing about the fact that the Top Team are unfairly treated by the said Play Offs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) All I can do is to state accurately that Crowds, in general, have plummeted since the advent of the Play Offs. All you can say is that, as I said, the Play Offs are well attended. The trend for attendances was downward for many years before the 'playoffs' were introduced, so I don't think that can realistically be attributed as the reason. If crowds have plummeted since, then it's far more down to different riders turning up (or not) each week, incoherent fixture lists and shambolic rules. More generally though, it's the image of an old fashioned sport that takes place in dirty rundown stadia that turns people away, and one that's not even particularly cheap entertainment anymore. Most sports employ playoffs these days as they provide a finale on a pre-determined date to conclude the season. It's one of the things introduced in speedway in recent years that I have no particular objection to, even though speedway isn't played and therefore the term 'playoffs' is ridiculous (but it's somehow typical of speedway to publicly demonstrate its illiteracy). They should be called the Championship Finals, Race-Offs or something like that. Edited December 2, 2015 by Humphrey Appleby 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) i) That is exactly the point BW - we are both arguing about something where there is NO solid facts. Incorrect. Playoffs are not something unique to the sport of speedway, they have been introduced in many sports all over the world, to great success. The playoffs generate the biggest crowds of the season in the sport of speedway. Those are the facts we know.. and they support the playoffs. You can't use declining attendances as an argument against them, as attendances were declining long before the playoffs. Humphreys post above pretty much sums up the main reasons why the sport struggles. Finally.. you've misunderstood me. The top team are NOT unfairly treated by the playoffs. A league system may give a fairer reflection of the best team over a season BUT when the rules are known beforehand, finishing top and losing in the playoffs is not unfair in any way. Edited December 2, 2015 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Incorrect. Playoffs are not something unique to the sport of speedway, they have been introduced in many sports all over the world, to great success. The playoffs generate the biggest crowds of the season in the sport of speedway. Those are the facts we know.. and they support the playoffs. You won't accept it will you. Have the Play Offs brought people flocking back to Speedway? The answer is a resounding NO. The biggest Crowd is the Final - like it would be in any Competition. A question for you: How much of the Play Off Revenues are paid to the rest of the Clubs in the League who did not actually make the Play Offs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) You won't accept it will you. Have the Play Offs brought people flocking back to Speedway? The answer is a resounding NO. The biggest Crowd is the Final - like it would be in any Competition. A question for you: How much of the Play Off Revenues are paid to the rest of the Clubs in the League who did not actually make the Play Offs? What won't I accept? I've given you the facts. The resounding facts are THEY HAVE brought fans back as there are many, many who long have given up on the sport but their team makes the playoffs and they are there. Some enjoy it so much they return the following year.. only to be driven away by the reasons both I and Humphrey have identified. The rest is just supposition. You're picking out declining crowds and trying to link that with the playoffs.. however, your theory is flawed as crowds were declining prior to that. It's been explained to you numerous times why crowds continue to fall but you steadfastly ignore it. Your question about revenues is irrelevant as all you are proposing is, instead of 4 teams gaining from the playoff crowds, we scrap them and nobody gains. Marvellous! Once you come up with an idea that can replace that lost revenue, then you might have something.. until then, its nonsense. As it happens every team in the Elite League, bar Leicester has been in the playoffs more than once, so all have gained. Edited December 2, 2015 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 You won't accept it will you. Have the Play Offs brought people flocking back to Speedway? The answer is a resounding NO. The biggest Crowd is the Final - like it would be in any Competition. A question for you: How much of the Play Off Revenues are paid to the rest of the Clubs in the League who did not actually make the Play Offs? It's you who does not get it ....Nothing is going to make fans flood back to speedway but that does not mean that the play offs are at fault or without them they would flood back ...as you have been asked many times why would they flood back just because we never had them ? Yet again as has been explain just like any sport or in life if you do well you get the rewards ... in football do Manchester ute give stoke a % of there champions league money ? ....Also the play offs help most of the clubs during even they don't make the top 4 as it keeps the season alive and keeps the crowds bigger . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 It's you who does not get it ....Nothing is going to make fans flood back to speedway but that does not mean that the play offs are at fault or without them they would flood back ...as you have been asked many times why would they flood back just because we never had them ? Yet again as has been explain just like any sport or in life if you do well you get the rewards ... in football do Manchester ute give stoke a % of there champions league money ? ....Also the play offs help most of the clubs during even they don't make the top 4 as it keeps the season alive and keeps the crowds bigger . Aaahhhh!! Welcome back Penfold. :party: Clinging on to the shirt tails of BW (Dangermouse) as usual. No FACTS BW - just your supposition. Anyway - unless you accuse me of running away and losing the argument - I have better things to do than argue with someone who shows as much intransigence as yourself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Aaahhhh!! Welcome back Penfold. :party: Clinging on to the shirt tails of BW (Dangermouse) as usual. No FACTS BW - just your supposition. Anyway - unless you accuse me of running away and losing the argument - I have better things to do than argue with someone who shows as much intransigence as yourself. When did I say that is that another lie like when you said that I said only oap's go to speedway ? we are waiting for the post when I said that ...we have given are views and logic why crowds would be lower without the plays offs ...sadly when ask why they would be bigger without them you can't up with up with answer and result to your child like name calling to divert from yet again being crushed in a debate . Edited December 2, 2015 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 When did I say that is that another lie like when you said that I said only oap's go to speedway ? we are waiting for the post when I said that ...we have given are views and logic why crowds would be lower without the plays offs ...sadly when ask why they would be bigger without them you can't up with up with answer and result to your child like name calling to divert from yet again being crushed in a debate . I was actually addressing BW - obviously you have not got the wit to understand that. I did not quote BW to attempt to save Bandwidth. Nothing for me to answer here - I don't lie by the way - I would hope that your mentor BW would at least back me up on that. I may not agree with people - but I don't lie. An apology would be nice - however - I won't hold my breath. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Aaahhhh!! Welcome back Penfold. :party: Clinging on to the shirt tails of BW (Dangermouse) as usual. No FACTS BW - just your supposition. Anyway - unless you accuse me of running away and losing the argument - I have better things to do than argue with someone who shows as much intransigence as yourself. I've given you the facts. The facts are in every sport around the world the playoffs are a success. That is a FACT. The facts are that fans who no longer attend the sport are brought back to the sport by the playoffs. That is a FACT. Incidentally, you don't like multiple account holders and have been vociferous about that many times in the past... you're strangely quiet about DAC... why is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I've given you the facts. The facts are in every sport around the world the playoffs are a success. That is a FACT. The facts are that fans who no longer attend the sport are brought back to the sport by the playoffs. That is a FACT. Incidentally, you don't like multiple account holders and have been vociferous about that many times in the past... you're strangely quiet about DAC... why is that? Have I? I have passed the odd comment about it yes - but I have not got a bee in my bonnet over it. I know nothing about DAC as you put it. I still believe multiple Accounts are wrong - so much so that years ago when my Account didn't work I set myself up with another Account. A few years after that I thought I would try my old Account to see what would happen - it worked so I contacted the Mods straight away and they block my original Account. To this date - 'The White Knight' is the only Account I have - and I give you my word on that. I hope that satisfies you BW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I was actually addressing BW - obviously you have not got the wit to understand that. I did not quote BW to attempt to save Bandwidth. Nothing for me to answer here - I don't lie by the way - I would hope that your mentor BW would at least back me up on that. I may not agree with people - but I don't lie. An apology would be nice - however - I won't hold my breath. So where is the link when I said only oap's go to speedway ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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