ColinMills Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 "a sign that you have lost the argument".....evens....that's the next reply you will receive!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 "a sign that you have lost the argument".....evens....that's the next reply you will receive!! (Sigh) More like Odds On again I would say. :D 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) To answer your question directly - because certain Posters on here believe that they cannot be wrong. I would guess most of us know who they are. Believe me - they CAN!!! Anyone seen a black kettle and a Pot .....what the name of that bit hit by Alanis Morissette .. Edited November 28, 2015 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 Anyone seen a black kettle and a Pot .....what the name of that bit hit by Alanis Morissette .. Lost on me mate - WHO????? :rolleyes: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) The savvy fans referred to earlier in the thread have realised that the only meetings really worth bothering with are the cup meetings after the qualifiers. If the league is made more credible, rather than just a qualifying competition, it might encourage the savvy folk to swap whatever they do instead for a few hours a week and come to speedway. incorrect as has been pointed out there plenty of matches outside the playoffs that are worthwhile going to ..the whole system makes more worthwhile matches ....Why would a so called savy fan not go to a match that was important under the play offs rules but then go to the same match that has nothing riding on it once the play offs have been removed ? As has already been pointed out as well in all the other sports including speedway in Poland and Sweden hardly anyone has a problem with the play off system and it being credible so why would it be a problem in the uk ..yet again another only in uk speedway myth Edited November 28, 2015 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) incorrect as has been pointed out there plenty of matches outside the playoffs that are worthwhile going ..the whole system makes more worthwhile matches ....What would a so called savy fan not go to a match that was important under the play offs rules but then go to the same match that has nothing riding on it once the play offs have been removed ? As has already been pointed out in all the other sports including speedway in Poland and Sweden hardly anyone has a problem with the play off system and it being credible so why would it be a problem in the uk ..yet again another only in uk speedway myth Maybe because, under the old system, a team finished in a finishing position, whether it be first, third, fifth, twelfth, sixteenth or whatever and tried to beat the previous season's finishing position. Now there's just two positions, qualification and failure - first or fourth, makes no difference (a team actually taking a dive to lose a match so as to finish second and get what they saw as easier semi-final opponents) and fifth or bottom, again no damn difference! Now, you may be happy with that but I'm not. I've seen no evidence that crowds are any bigger because a team is trying for fourth place than if they were in the middle of the season's failures - in fact, I've seen smaller crowds once teams have safely qualified probably due to folk saving their sheckels for the so-called main event - so from what I've seen, the only teams to make any money are the qualifiers most of which are usually the better off teams anyway. Because of that I think the play-offs as league championship deciders should be scrapped. Now, I don't give a toss which other sports use play-offs and for what purpose, nor how successful or not they are but I will say this - which league, in this country at least, has the biggest crowds, whether it be Friday night, Saturday lunchtime, teatime, or some other time that day, Sunday lunchtime, teatime or whatever time or even a Monday evening? Yes, Premier League football. Now, to borrow one of your lines, when can I see the (Association Football) Premier League play-offs on Sky? Edited November 28, 2015 by Vincent Blackshadow 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) Maybe because, under the old system, a team finished in a finishing position, whether it be first, third, fifth, twelfth, sixteenth or whatever and tried to beat the previous season's finishing position. Now there's just qualification and failure - first or fourth, makes no difference (a team actually taking a dive to lose a match so as to finish second and get what they saw as easier semi-final opponents) and fifth or bottom, again no damn difference! Now, you may be happy with that but I'm not. I've seen no evidence that crowds are any bigger because a team is trying for fourth place than if they were in the middle of the season's failures - in fact, I've seen smaller crowds once teams have safely qualified probably due to folk saving their sheckels for the so-called main event - so from what I've seen, the only teams to make any money are the qualifiers most of which are usually the better off teams anyway. Because of that I think the play-offs as league championship deciders should be scrapped. Now, I don't give a toss which other sports use play-offs and for what purpose, nor how successful or not they are but I will say this - which league, in this country at least, has the biggest crowds, whether it be Friday night, Saturday lunchtime, teatime, or some other time that day, Sunday lunchtime, teatime or whatever time or even a Monday evening? Yes, Premier League football. Now, to borrow one of your lines, when can I see the (Association Football) Premier League play-offs on Sky? Yet another silly post as has already been explain many times and quite clearly the Pl does not need to have a play offs as it its has plenty of money and there are plenty of reasons to have matches that matter ....champions league spots teams can go down a division and massive pay jumps on where you come in the league ..unlike speedway who have none of these .if Speedway had all that they there would be no need plays offs sadly that is not the case . Yet again you are incorrect about where it matters where you finish in the league as where finish help pick who you race ..so another wrong fact ..of course you don't give toss about what other sports used play offs because it shows that no other sport have a problem with play offs and they work ..so as I said it must be another only in uk speedway myth ...As for you have seen no sign of crowds going up when trying to get 4th place you must miss out of the crowds Belle Vue and Swindon were getting last year when going for them ...maybe you had your eyes shut .... Edited November 28, 2015 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 Yet another silly post as has already been explain many times and quite clearly the Pl does not need to have a play offs as it its has plenty of money and there are plenty of reasons to have matches that matter ....champions league spots teams can go down a division and massive pay jumps on where you come in the league ..unlike speedway who have none of these .if Speedway had all that they there would be no need plays offs sadly that is not the case . Yet again you are incorrect about where it matters where you finish in the league as where finish help pick who you race ..so another wrong fact ..of course you don't give toss about what other sports used play offs because it shows that no other sport have a problem with play offs and they work ..so as I said it must be another only in uk speedway myth ...As for you have seen no sign of crowds going up when trying to get 4th place you must miss out of the crowds Belle Vue and Swindon were getting last year when going for them ...maybe you had your eyes shut .... Hasn't always been like that. What speedway needs to do is for the promoters to come up with something that helps all of speedway not just the better-off few who regularly make the play-offs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 Yet another silly post as has already been explain many times and quite clearly the Pl does not need to have a play offs as it its has plenty of money and there are plenty of reasons to have matches that matter ....champions league spots teams can go down a division and massive pay jumps on where you come in the league ..unlike speedway who have none of these .if Speedway had all that they there would be no need plays offs sadly that is not the case . Yet again you are incorrect about where it matters where you finish in the league as where finish help pick who you race ..so another wrong fact ..of course you don't give toss about what other sports used play offs because it shows that no other sport have a problem with play offs and they work ..so as I said it must be another only in uk speedway myth ...As for you have seen no sign of crowds going up when trying to get 4th place you must miss out of the crowds Belle Vue and Swindon were getting last year when going for them ...maybe you had your eyes shut .... You keep accusing people of Posting silly Posts. :nono: You can't have read many of yours lately. :rofl: :rofl: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 Hasn't always been like that. What speedway needs to do is for the promoters to come up with something that helps all of speedway not just the better-off few who regularly make the play-offs. ? all sports tend to reward the teams that do well that is the whole point of doing well . a lot of people have a school of thought that speedway has been back by trying to help the weakest all the time ....in speedway due to the points limit there hardly a team sport that tries to even things out ...Poole were not always a big club Ford as well as cheating worked hard to put them where they are today and nows he gets the rewards , others can do the same if the wish no reason why Wolves should be bottom etc . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) ? all sports tend to reward the teams that do well that is the whole point of doing well . a lot of people have a school of thought that speedway has been back by trying to help the weakest all the time ....in speedway due to the points limit there hardly a team sport that tries to even things out ...Poole were not always a big club Ford as well as cheating worked hard to put them where they are today and nows he gets the rewards , others can do the same if the wish no reason why Wolves should be bottom etc . You keep saying speedway needs the play-offs to help the sport survive but that money only goes to the qualifiers who are usually the better off teams anyway. How is that helping the other teams? Yes, Ford turned Poole's fortunes around but not every club can do what it wants so your suggestion that other teams can do the same isn't all that likely. Two tried it, remember? Edited November 28, 2015 by Vincent Blackshadow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 You keep saying speedway needs the play-offs to help the sport survive but that money only goes to the qualifiers who are usually the better off teams anyway. How is that helping the other teams? Yes, Ford turned Poole's fortunes around but not every club can do what it wants so your suggestion that other teams can do the same isn't all that likely. Two tried it, remember? Yet again it was explain before who don't have to make the play offs for them to help you ....they help you in terms of crowds numbers if have a chance of still making them rather that the season being over by may .. as for the same teams and bigger clubs making them every year Belle Vue are a massive clubs and have not made the play offs for years intill this season ...Wolves another massive club were bottom ...there is no need for any of the current teams not to have a chance of making the top 4 . I didnt say they wouldn't? It works for those few meetings, I think there was one meeting that attracted a bigger crowd last season when belle vue went to wolves and was probably wolves biggest crowd of the season. Speedway needs more fans like you, not the savvy ones who only go to the end of season cup matches. Not sure understand about savy fans ...you reckon that they were all turn up if matches meant nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) Yet again it was explain before who don't have to make the play offs for them to help you ....they help you in terms of crowds numbers if have a chance of still making them rather that the season being over by may .. as for the same teams and bigger clubs making them every year Belle Vue are a massive clubs and have not made the play offs for years intill this season ...Wolves another massive club were bottom ...there is no need for any of the current teams not to have a chance of making the top 4 . Not sure understand about savy fans ...you reckon that they were all turn up if matches meant nothing As I said, there's no evidence many more people go just because a team might make fourth since we don't know how many would have turned up without play-offs and there have been instances of lower crowds once play-off success or failure has been sorted . You have your opinion on this, I have mine. And hasn't there been a post from a Swindon fan (or two) many pages back on this thread about the low turn-out for the second leg of the semi at Blunsden because many thought it was a pointless match due to the deficit? So not even a semi is guaranteed a bumper gate any more. It's the play-off system, and the fact many of today's fans started attending after their inception, that has killed some clubs' seasons by the end of May. It never was like that because, as I said, fans wanted to see their teams finish higher than in the previous season (just like in every other sport back a while) and crowds held up throughout the season. It even happened that, and you may not believe this, some mid-table nothing-to-play-for (in your view) teams had better attendances than top clubs some seasons. Edited November 28, 2015 by Vincent Blackshadow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 (edited) As I said, there's no evidence many more people go just because a team might make fourth since we don't know how many would have turned up without play-offs and there have been instances of lower crowds once play-off success or failure has been sorted . You have your opinion on this, I have mine. And hasn't there been a post from a Swindon fan (or two) many pages back on this thread about the low turn-out for the second leg of the semi at Blunsden because many thought it was a pointless match due to the deficit? So not even a semi is guaranteed a bumper gate any more. It's the play-off system, and the fact many of today's fans started attending after their inception, that has killed some clubs' seasons by the end of May. It never was like that because, as I said, fans wanted to see their teams finish higher than in the previous season (just like in every other sport back a while) and crowds held up throughout the season. It even happened that, and you may not believe this, some mid-table nothing-to-play-for (in your view) teams had better attendances than top clubs some seasons. I think it's common sense that more people are going go to matches that mean something than not ....you really don't need any stats to back that up ..you have to be very naïve to think otherwise Going on how speedway was and how fans used to act 20 years ago has no bearing on how the modern person or fan acts . Edited November 29, 2015 by orion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted November 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 I think it's common sense that more people are going go to matches that mean something than not ....you really don't need any stats to back that up ..you have to be very naïve to think otherwise Going on how speedway was and how fans used to act 20 years ago has no bearing on how the modern person or fan acts . Most of the fans who go now went 20 years ago!! whether the play/offs are a success or not would speedway crumble? without them YES or NO i think the answer is no only my opinion though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 I think it's common sense that more people are going go to matches that mean something than not ....you really don't need any stats to back that up ..you have to be very naïve to think otherwise Going on how speedway was and how fans used to act 20 years ago has no bearing on how the modern person or fan acts . Swings and roundabouts, surely. The floating attender that considers a match 'meaningful' because a team may qualify will consider all matches after qualification is assured or definitely out 'non meaningful'. Since, as Sidney points out above, many of today's fans were the fans of twenty years ago I'd say it definitely has a bearing on how many modern fans act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 Swings and roundabouts, surely. The floating attender that considers a match 'meaningful' because a team may qualify will consider all matches after qualification is assured or definitely out 'non meaningful'. Since, as Sidney points out above, many of today's fans were the fans of twenty years ago I'd say it definitely has a bearing on how many modern fans act. I love it when you try and push this line. It doesn't matter how you present it, its defeating your own argument. Based on YOUR theory, such fans wouldn't be interested in any meetings bar those effecting the title race and once a team was out of the title race they wouldn't be interested. As such based on YOUR theory, there are more meaningful matches with the playoff system (discounting the actual playoffs themselves) so the system has more chance of attracting fans. It isn't even something that can be argued against. The ridiculous suggestion that keeps being put forward is speedway is struggling, let's blame the playoffs is a non entity. There is no evidence to suggest this, not within speedway or in any of the other myriad of sports that operate playoff systems. The other suggestion put forward is that the sport lacks credibility due to playoffs, again this is PROVEN as a fallacy due to the myriad of sports, some BIG sports that have no such credibility issues. Speedway crowds were declining before the playoffs came in.. considerably so. Little has changed since to stop that decline, the playoffs are one thing that has helped, but they are nowhere near enough on their own. Some of you keep saying its no good having a couple of meetings that attract crowds... so your idea is get rid of the successful part of the sport? What nonsense! You have to build on that, find ways of making other meetings as exciting. It can be done with the right promotion, some clubs in their TV meetings have shown how to do it. Some issues that would help to reverse the decline if fixed:- Constant missing riders due to racing for another team in the same country. It could quite easily be set up that Elite League race on one set of nights, PL on the others. As they do in other countries. This then allows riders to race in both leagues and NOT be missing for their team's matches. It could even be managed far, far better than now without having the separate race nights by simply planning the fixtures correctly. Speed of meetings.. There should be no reason, bar crashes, that a meeting starting at 7:30pm shouldn't be done and dusted by 9pm. Absolutely none at all. Do away with intervals, especially on cold nights. There are natural intervals after each heat. Presentation and promotion. Look around at other sports and see how they are presented and learn from it. Rebranding.. forget all the family sport nonsense, its out dated now. Market the sport as the 'extremist of extreme sports'. Market the tumbles and the crashes, the action. Just a few things, there are plenty more... Lets build on the playoffs, not get rid of something that DOES attract fans in as things will only be worse. Finally.. to WK, Sidney etc... I don't think anybody is saying that playoffs is the best way of deciding a champion per se.. just that in these modern times the sport has to adapt to survive. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 (edited) I love it when you try and push this line. It doesn't matter how you present it, its defeating your own argument. Based on YOUR theory, such fans wouldn't be interested in any meetings bar those effecting the title race and once a team was out of the title race they wouldn't be interested. As such based on YOUR theory, there are more meaningful matches with the playoff system (discounting the actual playoffs themselves) so the system has more chance of attracting fans. It isn't even something that can be argued against. The ridiculous suggestion that keeps being put forward is speedway is struggling, let's blame the playoffs is a non entity. There is no evidence to suggest this, not within speedway or in any of the other myriad of sports that operate playoff systems. The other suggestion put forward is that the sport lacks credibility due to playoffs, again this is PROVEN as a fallacy due to the myriad of sports, some BIG sports that have no such credibility issues. Speedway crowds were declining before the playoffs came in.. considerably so. Little has changed since to stop that decline, the playoffs are one thing that has helped, but they are nowhere near enough on their own. Some of you keep saying its no good having a couple of meetings that attract crowds... so your idea is get rid of the successful part of the sport? What nonsense! You have to build on that, find ways of making other meetings as exciting. It can be done with the right promotion, some clubs in their TV meetings have shown how to do it. Some issues that would help to reverse the decline if fixed:- Constant missing riders due to racing for another team in the same country. It could quite easily be set up that Elite League race on one set of nights, PL on the others. As they do in other countries. This then allows riders to race in both leagues and NOT be missing for their team's matches. It could even be managed far, far better than now without having the separate race nights by simply planning the fixtures correctly. Speed of meetings.. There should be no reason, bar crashes, that a meeting starting at 7:30pm shouldn't be done and dusted by 9pm. Absolutely none at all. Do away with intervals, especially on cold nights. There are natural intervals after each heat. Presentation and promotion. Look around at other sports and see how they are presented and learn from it. Rebranding.. forget all the family sport nonsense, its out dated now. Market the sport as the 'extremist of extreme sports'. Market the tumbles and the crashes, the action. Just a few things, there are plenty more... Lets build on the playoffs, not get rid of something that DOES attract fans in as things will only be worse. Finally.. to WK, Sidney etc... I don't think anybody is saying that playoffs is the best way of deciding a champion per se.. just that in these modern times the sport has to adapt to survive. Orion posted more people will go to a meeting that means something. Does that not mean that less will go to a meeting that has lost it's meaning? Nothing to do with theories at all. The rest of your post I agree with - I posted so a few posts back. Speedway needs to do something to get more folk in every match not just a few at the end of the season. Edited November 29, 2015 by Vincent Blackshadow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 The rest of your post I agree with - I posted so a few posts back. Speedway needs to do something to get more folk in every match not just a few at the end of the season. Yet again because of the play offs it brings plenty of fans in during the season as well ..so it's not just the end of season ..your plan is stop that so less people go . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 (edited) Yet again because of the play offs it brings plenty of fans in during the season as well ..so it's not just the end of season ..your plan is stop that so less people go . Course it does mate, that's why promoters have voted for less 'qualifying' matches in the past. You like them and think they're necessary, I don't like them (as championship deciders) and think that, in part at least, they contribute to the big empty spaces seen on the terraces today. We'll never agree. Edited November 29, 2015 by Vincent Blackshadow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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