The White Knight Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 The only people who can do that are the club owners themselves. So although I don't agree with Orion on this matter I think its unhelpful to use this as an argument. I feel the same when Orion says that those who do not want play offs need to show proof. Sorry Orion but as far as I am concerned the burden of proof lies on the other side of the argument. Orion (as far as I can gather and I apologise if I have this wrong) seems to believe that more supporters want play offs than don't. I have a feeling that it is the other way round. May I suggest that we run a pole on that very question? I won't have time to set it up until tommorow so if anyone else wants to start one please feel free. I would be very interested in the result. Of course whatever happens in such a pole does not mean one side is right and one side is wrong it just shows the strength of feeling on either side. I have seen video of the early days of the EL and there certainly seemed to be many more fans there than now. Those fans have been lost while play offs were functioning. Please understand that I am not holding this up as proof one way of the other. Just making the case that this is far less black and white than either side is saying. However my premise is simply that the play offs are an unfair way to decide a league competition. It gives unfair advantage to clubs with deep pockets and those with greater home track advantage. Eastbourne fans can come on here and fairly say things such as 'its a track with four corners' and 'the league(s) are stronger for having variety' and so on. All of these are valid and fair statements. However it cannot be denied (really it can't) that some tracks hold a greater advantage than others. Less so as you move up through the leagues I will grant you. If such tracks win a league title over the course of a season then good luck to them and no moaning from me. But it will always leave a sour taste in the mouth if my club finishes top over a season (and I am not saying they will, although so far so good in the team building stakes.) and then loses in a final because a) the team that wins brought in a ringer at the last moment or we cant compete on their track while they can on our track. I understand what you have stated about systems being tried and rejected. I grasp that fully. It does not mean that it is a fair way of deciding a league. It isn't for the reasons that I have stated. It is my opinion that eventually unfairness (even perceived unfairness and more about that in a moment.) will eventually wear down the goodwill of supporters. And just because play offs work financially in the now (and I don't concede that point) does not mean they will continue to work. Even it that is not true that play offs are unfair (and again I do not concede that point) the very perception that this could be true is enough to hack people off. And that, if I may suggest, is the biggest problem that our sport has. A problem of perception. Because of the way it is run we can and have had doubts about decisions that do and don't go our way. We have all had doubt at some time or other along those lines. Not because things are necessarily so but because the way the sport is run means they are open to allegations such as these and the perception grows bigger that things are not how they should be. And lets be honest here. These decision are not and never have been taken for the good of the sport. They are taken because of individual clubs own needs. That is the way our sport is run and why we have ALL everyone of us had problems with perception over the years. Think I'll shut up now lol. Jolly good Post!!!! Well reasoned - polite (BW and Penfold take note). Agressive Posting does not make you right. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 love the penfold name!! but afraid its not appropriate to go under more than one name!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanF Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 Would it be a different issue maybe? without the up front sky money? Possibly. Probably only Neil Watson and Tsunami would be privvy to the actual income and expenditure of running a club. The fact that the PL and NL are running play offs without the benefit of Sky money suggests that they see a financial benefit in doing so. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparkafag Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) I don’t get the point re the track and home track advantage? That applies whether it is a play off or league campaign. Edited December 4, 2015 by sparkafag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) When people make posts that deserve some respect then I agree. However we have three or four posters on here who quite simply cannot process information. They cannot see what is in front of their face. Their idea has been TRIED and FAILED. No supposition, no if's, but's or maybe's... their system has been scrapped as of 2nd December. They wanted hard and fast evidence, the National League has provided it. Yet none of them even acknowledge it and blindly ignore what is happening in the real world and continue to post the same thing over and over and over. Such posts deserve no respect, indeed such posts are essentially trolling and against forum rules. Throw in that one of them is a multiple account holder flagrantly flouting forum rules because he thinks he is clever and you get this mess. It has nothing to do with being a keyboard warrior, what is being said on here is tame compared to what would happen in any business environment if such actions were displayed I am in control, as evidenced by real life events. Most recently backed up on the 2nd December when the National League having tried your system of the winners of the league being champions and staging a Gold Cup at the end of the season abandoned it because it was WORSE. So again, not me who is saying it.. but real life events. Another post that is for the children's section. You admit playoffs work financially but then claims fans won't go because they are unfair! You do realise that playoffs exist in many, many sports, none of which have any problems with perception or being unfair. Does Rugby Union have a problem with perception because they use playoffs? No they're enjoying record crowds. Does Rugby League have a problem? No. Do people stop going to football because the team in 6th placed in the Championship got promoted to the Premier League over the team in 3rd? No. Do any of the multitude of other sports that use playoffs have problems? No Quite simply. as is evidenced by REAL LIFE you're making things up in an attempt to form an argument. ARROGANCE of the highest order but nothing surprises me,WHY do you try to force people to comply to your way of thinking.? Edited December 4, 2015 by sidney 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 ARROGANCE of the highest order but nothing surprises me,WHY do you try to force people to comply to your way of thinking.? Not forcing you to do anything, I have been trying to educate you. You prefer to ignore reality and spout nonsense and make yourself look very foolish. Your decision, nothing I can do about that. If you want to engage in adult debate Sidney, try answering the questions you are posed.. not just ramble incoherently over and over. Answer me this simple question. Why have the National League decided to re-introduce playoffs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 BW....genuine question here. is this thread about club finances or what format the fans want? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanF Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 BW....genuine question here. is this thread about club finances or what format the fans want? How would you measure that? A club's finances will surely be better if they give the fans what they want. The only real objective test of what the fans want is whether they are prepared to hand over their hard earned cash to attend. Therefore, it would appear that fans love the play offs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) Not forcing you to do anything, I have been trying to educate you. You prefer to ignore reality and spout nonsense and make yourself look very foolish. Your decision, nothing I can do about that. If you want to engage in adult debate Sidney, try answering the questions you are posed.. not just ramble incoherently over and over. Answer me this simple question. Why have the National League decided to re-introduce playoffs? Educate right! i have more chance of walking on the moon than learning much from you.I would be very confident in debating with you on matters on Speedway from the 60s to the present day.I don't try to force my OPINION on someone and 99 per cent of people on here i respect there view.You are very sly you don't loose you rag or swear but you make sly and hurtful remarks but that is a massive WEAKNESS of yours always has been.Have you ever been in charge of a section a group of people? your man management skills are nearly zero going by your attitude.Ok you say and think i am a thicko i can live with that but like i said before on speedway matters i would feel confident debating with you all day long. Edited December 4, 2015 by sidney 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 How would you measure that? A club's finances will surely be better if they give the fans what they want. The only real objective test of what the fans want is whether they are prepared to hand over their hard earned cash to attend. Therefore, it would appear that fans love the play offs. well as a fan I can tell you 100% I would prefer straight league traditional championship. If I was promoter of Leicester, id choose play offs as its a chance for them to creep in fourth to make bit of money. if I was promoter of poole, id choose straight championship, as a successful side automatically draw crowds, and the night they wrap it up,would automatically get the large crowd you keep on about! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 Educate right! i have more chance of walking on the moon than learning much from you.I would be very confident in debating with you on matters on Speedway from the 60s to the present day.I don't try to force my OPINION on someone and 99 per cent of people on here i respect there view.You are very sly you don't loose you rag or swear but you make sly and hurtful remarks but that is a massive WEAKNEST of yours always has been.Have you ever been in charge of a section a group of people? your man management skills are nearly zero going by your attitude.Ok you say and think i am a thicko i can live with that but like i said before on speedway matters i would feel confident debating with you all day long. First of all sidney - your are most definitely not a "thicko". Your Speedway knowledge alone is enough to prove that to me. Secondly - this Thread seems to be more about us all jumping to BW's tune than the original debate. I agree with you that his terminology of "I have been trying to educate you" is arrogant - extremely so. Perhaps he needs a lesson in humility. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 let me educate you Sidney. agree with BW, he then believes hes right, and he can close this thread for the 4th time!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 let me educate you Sidney. agree with BW, he then believes hes right, and he can close this thread for the 4th time!! Excellent. :rofl: :rofl: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 This is unbelievable No one denies you your right to dislike the play offs. People have asserted that mid season crowds would be better if it were not for play offs so for the umpteenth time Why would this be, why would a match in Aug between the 5th and 6th place teams be more appealing if neither team had anything to race for. We are simply asking for the thinking behind this but no one seems willing to answer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 let me educate you Sidney. agree with BW, he then believes hes right, and he can close this thread for the 4th time!!The thing is Colin does it matter who is right or wrong i know it does not matter to you there is some great people on here and we all can learn a fair bit lets carry on eh lets talk about ?? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 When people make posts that deserve some respect then I agree. However we have three or four posters on here who quite simply cannot process information. They cannot see what is in front of their face. Their idea has been TRIED and FAILED. No supposition, no if's, but's or maybe's... their system has been scrapped as of 2nd December. They wanted hard and fast evidence, the National League has provided it. Yet none of them even acknowledge it and blindly ignore what is happening in the real world and continue to post the same thing over and over and over. Such posts deserve no respect, indeed such posts are essentially trolling and against forum rules. Throw in that one of them is a multiple account holder flagrantly flouting forum rules because he thinks he is clever and you get this mess. It has nothing to do with being a keyboard warrior, what is being said on here is tame compared to what would happen in any business environment if such actions were displayed. I am in control, as evidenced by real life events. Most recently backed up on the 2nd December when the National League having tried your system of the winners of the league being champions and staging a Gold Cup at the end of the season abandoned it because it was WORSE. So again, not me who is saying it.. but real life events. Another post that is for the children's section. You admit playoffs work financially but then claims fans won't go because they are unfair! You do realise that playoffs exist in many, many sports, none of which have any problems with perception or being unfair. Does Rugby Union have a problem with perception because they use playoffs? No they're enjoying record crowds. Does Rugby League have a problem? No. Do people stop going to football because the team in 6th placed in the Championship got promoted to the Premier League over the team in 3rd? No. Do any of the multitude of other sports that use playoffs have problems? No Quite simply. as is evidenced by REAL LIFE you're making things up in an attempt to form an argument. Strewth! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 think we all want meaningful games. I recall the 70s with 16 teams in the league. I know it was a different period in speedway, but the straight league worked. to get these meaningful games, speedway has to become credible. Doubling up is dreadful, im sure we all want a team to follow, but not different line ups each week. The double pointer, again, not credible. lets get this sport back to a credible situation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanF Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 well as a fan I can tell you 100% I would prefer straight league traditional championship. If I was promoter of Leicester, id choose play offs as its a chance for them to creep in fourth to make bit of money. if I was promoter of poole, id choose straight championship, as a successful side automatically draw crowds, and the night they wrap it up,would automatically get the large crowd you keep on about! I don't have any figures, Speedway is notorious for not releasing attendance figures or financials. I know that I watched the Belle Vue v Poole grand final meeting last night and they said it was the largest crowd they had ever seen in that stadium. You may be right about increasing "regular season" crowds if there were no play offs. Neither of us know. With the current financial situation in the sport, nobody is going to risk taking away the play offs and hoping that regular crowds increase. The only real objective data that I can see is that the PL and NL have tried both and have chosen the play off route. I can't think of a good reason why they would do that if it wasn't financially beneficial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 I don't have any figures, Speedway is notorious for not releasing attendance figures or financials. I know that I watched the Belle Vue v Poole grand final meeting last night and they said it was the largest crowd they had ever seen in that stadium. You may be right about increasing "regular season" crowds if there were no play offs. Neither of us know. With the current financial situation in the sport, nobody is going to risk taking away the play offs and hoping that regular crowds increase. The only real objective data that I can see is that the PL and NL have tried both and have chosen the play off route. I can't think of a good reason why they would do that if it wasn't financially beneficial. I will ask you what I asked others. would a Edinburgh fan travel away, knowing they are already in the play offs the following week? probably not, hence, that specific match would have a lower gate, because Edinburgh fans would wait until the play offs, boosting that attendance. you take from one and give to another? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 4, 2015 Report Share Posted December 4, 2015 (edited) I will ask you what I asked others. would a Edinburgh fan travel away, knowing they are already in the play offs the following week? probably not, hence, that specific match would have a lower gate, because Edinburgh fans would wait until the play offs, boosting that attendance. you take from one and give to another? But they would if it was a meaningless league match under the old format ? Edited December 4, 2015 by Oldace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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