Play Offs Should They Be Scrapped.?

[Tsunami]

 

OK Sidney, one last try!!

 

We get you don't like the play off, neither does Ian, or DAC and a few others.

 

That is fine, it is entirely your choice.

 

There is hard evidence that the final generates £1000s for each participating team. Belle Vue probably had 3000 more than the normal gate, so assuming a normal gate at least breaks even then at £14.58 nett admission that put over £40,000 into the coffers. Likewise Poole and every finalist in years gone by.

 

That is undeniable but you assert that it is at the expense of crowds earlier in the season so I ask you again, why would this be?

 

In suggesting dropping the play offs what is your rationale that crowds earlier in the season would go up.

 

In my opinion fans are more likely to attend matches where the outcome matters, the match having some meaning so why, in your opinion would a match involving 5th and 6th place teams be more attractive under an old style league format. First place is still mega important with regard semi final opposition so why would their crowds be affected in the run to the season end. Wolves had to cram in a Belle Vue/Leicester double header with the outcome vital for the Aces, why would that match have had a better crowd with no play offs in place

 

I am not asking for a rant about "no right and wrong answers" just simply tell us your thinking. We all know speedway is in a mess and that crowds are not good so tell us how that would improve. It may be something blindingly obvious that myself, bwitcher, orion etc have all missed!!!.

 

So without a hissy fit just tell us why dropping play offs would benefit the sport

If I am understanding you right Oldace, you are advocating that the difference between a normal gate and the 4000, is the extra revenue due to the playoffs. If there weren't any Playoffs there would not be such a meeting or semifinal meetings, so the total gate for all PO meetings is the true financial advantage for PO's.

Have I got that right.

[The White Knight]

Just out of interest - does anyone relly know what happens to the Play Off money?

[oldace]

If I am understanding you right Oldace, you are advocating that the difference between a normal gate and the 4000, is the extra revenue due to the playoffs. If there weren't any Playoffs there would not be such a meeting or semifinal meetings, so the total gate for all PO meetings is the true financial advantage for PO's.

Have I got that right.

 

I am saying that is what we know with 100% certainty, No play off final means no bumper play off crowds and that is there for all to see.

 

What is conjecture, although common sense tells us it to be so, is the potential to increase gate revenue by what would be meaningless matches now being of some importance during the regular season

Just out of interest - does anyone relly know what happens to the Play Off money?

 

Are you being serious!!!!!!!!

 

They are not shared events so the gate receipts go to the host club. What else could happen to them

[The White Knight]

 

I am saying that is what we know with 100% certainty, No play off final means no bumper play off crowds and that is there for all to see.

 

What is conjecture, although common sense tells us it to be so, is the potential to increase gate revenue by what would be meaningless matches now being of some importance during the regular season

 

Are you being serious!!!!!!!!

 

They are not shared events so the gate receipts go to the host club. What else could happen to them

Exactly - thank you that is all I needed to confirm.

[orion]

 

 

My son said to me he wants to go to speedway next year now the NL have brought back play offs. He says speedway is totally boring without them, a point everyone in the pub agreed with and there followed rapturous applause all round the vault on hearing the news

Surely your mate at work laugh at that thou ?

[Tsunami]

Just out of interest - does anyone relly know what happens to the Play Off money?

Why should it go to anybody else but the successful teams in the competition. It is not a shared event like the Lucky 7 BSPA competitions.

[The White Knight]

Why should it go to anybody else but the successful teams in the competition. It is not a shared event like the Lucky 7 BSPA competitions.

Fine Dave - I was just trying to confirm what I sort of knew to be true. :approve:

 

Always better to be certain on here.

 

As you know - someone will always pull you up if you get it wrong.

[BWitcher]

Exactly - thank you that is all I needed to confirm.

 

What do you mean exactly?

 

What do you think happens to gate money from regular league matches?

[The White Knight]

 

What do you mean exactly?

 

What do you think happens to gate money from regular league matches?

Oh, for goodness sake grow up BW. Stop trying to read things that aren't there.

 

I have stated a couple of times on here regarding Play Off money - as it happens I was 100% right. However, I suddenly had a doubt that crept in to my mind and wanted tt confirming. Oldace very kindly did that as did Tsunami.

 

THAT IS ALL!!!

 

Unless, of course you are just looking for yet another bloody argument.

[BWitcher]

Oh, for goodness sake grow up BW. Stop trying to read things that aren't there.

 

I have stated a couple of times on here regarding Play Off money - as it happens I was 100% right. However, I suddenly had a doubt that crept in to my mind and wanted tt confirming. Oldace very kindly did that as did Tsunami.

 

THAT IS ALL!!!

 

Unless, of course you are just looking for yet another bloody argument.

 

No, I am wondering what on earth the relevance of that is?

 

Of course the money goes to the home team.

 

The only reason you have kept bringing it up is as another flawed attempt at attacking the playoffs.

 

The only people looking for 'arguments' on here are the obtuse folk who cannot grasp simple concepts. They cannot see what is in front of their faces. They cannot grasp that both the Premier League AND National League have tried the system they are putting forward and it FAILED and have now reverted back to the playoffs.

 

You wanted facts, you wanted tangible evidence. Those decisions have given you it.

 

I'm not the one who needs to grow up WK. You and a couple of others have dragged something out over 54 pages.. and in the whole of those 54 pages you still haven't come up with one tangible reason as to why the sport would benefit from not having playoffs.. Not one.

Edited December 3, 2015 by BWitcher

[ColinMills]

thought you brought this to an end BW?

[steve roberts]

thought you brought this to an end BW?

Colin,

 

I'm afraid that it's referred to as 'Last Word Syndrome!'

 

Just read your comment (I assume it's you?) in the recently published John Louis book! Received my copy only today...looks to be a good read. I had great admiration for the late John Berry (I communicated with him on a couple of occasions) and I only hope that John Louis isn't too critical about him in his book.

[ColinMills]

Colin,

 

I'm afraid that it's referred to as 'Last Word Syndrome!'

 

Just read your comment (I assume it's you?) in the recently published John Louis book! Received my copy only today...looks to be a good read. I had great admiration for the late John Berry (I communicated with him on a couple of occasions) and I only hope that John Louis isn't too critical about him in his book.

yeah, read the john berry book, wonderful years and good insight

[stratton]

yeah, read the john berry book, wonderful years and good insight

Just wish he was aloud to revamp speedway when the chance was there no doubt in my mind that speedway would be in better shape now.

No, I am wondering what on earth the relevance of that is?

 

Of course the money goes to the home team.

 

The only reason you have kept bringing it up is as another flawed attempt at attacking the playoffs.

 

The only people looking for 'arguments' on here are the obtuse folk who cannot grasp simple concepts. They cannot see what is in front of their faces. They cannot grasp that both the Premier League AND National League have tried the system they are putting forward and it FAILED and have now reverted back to the playoffs.

 

You wanted facts, you wanted tangible evidence. Those decisions have given you it.

 

I'm not the one who needs to grow up WK. You and a couple of others have dragged something out over 54 pages.. and in the whole of those 54 pages you still haven't come up with one tangible reason as to why the sport would benefit from not having playoffs.. Not one.

And you still have not showed me any real facts and financial figures to show me the play/offs make money over a SEASON March until October .Listen if you are capable, to make it simple for you it is like the play/offs pay for a loan that has occurred over a season losses rain/offs and giving the supporter an opportunity to MISS meetings before the semi Finals.

[BWitcher]

Just wish he was aloud to revamp speedway when the chance was there no doubt in my mind that speedway would be in better shape now.

And you still have not showed me any real facts and financial figures to show me the play/offs make money over a SEASON March until October .Listen if you are capable, to make it simple for you it is like the play/offs pay for a loan that has occurred over a season losses rain/offs and giving the supporter an opportunity to MISS meetings before the semi Finals.

 

Both the Premier League AND the National League had playoffs.

 

They BOTH tried what you advocate, getting rid of them and having a separate end of season contest.

 

They BOTH lost money in doing so.

 

They BOTH have gone back to play-offs.

 

You cannot get any more hard and fast evidence than that. Your system has been tried, TWICE and failed TWICE.

 

It doesn't matter what else you say, what nonsense you come out with, however much you try to deny it.

Edited December 3, 2015 by BWitcher

[guitar_art]

 

Course he did.

 

Why do people still do this cobblers with made up conversations.

 

It should be a bloke in the pub really you know who fell about laughing when you mentioned play offs

I can promise you that the conversation was real. (To be fair it was a much longer conversation but you got the gist.) The fact that you have to try to ridicule it says more about you than I ever could.

[BWitcher]

I like the way you backed out of the debate but is the punctuation for effect?

 

Anyway, there seems to be conflicting opinions regarding the fa PL. Apparently it is insolvent so why don't they just introduce a play off to decide the championship?

 

Everybody knows the cup bit is a winner and turning the league into a qualifying competition is bound to increase attendances because qualifying rounds always bring in huge crowds (although when qualification is assured or impossible not so much) and if there was any doubt just look at all the extra important meetings speedway has, I mean the Belle Vue meeting at wolves was probably wolve's biggest league crowd of the season, and there were so many other examples as well.

 

Just imagine in 15 years they might not be insolvent any more, kerching!!

Why did they get rid in the first place?

 

Ah the multi account, flagrant forum rule breaker is back.. How are Wibble and Drop a Cog getting on?

 

Why did they get rid in the first place?

 

Perhaps they listened to some clowns who told them it would be a good idea.. However, both leagues quickly learned it wasn't and went back. Thus nullifying any argument against them.

Edited December 3, 2015 by BWitcher

[guitar_art]

.No doubt if the play offs got taken way he would say ...Dad I really want to go to speedway . why son ? there a 3 v 4 place match and none of them can win anything or have anything to race for so I really want to go .

I fail to see what point you are making here. The conversation I reported happened and if it happened once it could and probably has more than once.

 

I was not holding this conversation as proof of anything other than countering arguments that this issue is in some way an age related one with oldies like myself on one side of the argument and young people on the other side.

 

Whichever side of the argument you come down on it is not as simple as that there are people of all age groups sharing differing opinions. My suspicion (and I have only a suspicion) is that the majority are of the view that play offs are Unfair. It is my personal view that over time unfairness can cause fans to drift away. I am not saying (because that would be stupid) that it is the only reason fans drift away. In fact I think there are other issues far more important in that regard.

 

I will finish with this observation.

 

In all of my posts on this subject I have tried, I think successfully, not to resort to name calling, finger pointing, ridiculing, bad temper and so on. Others, from both sides of the debate, have failed to do so. If you don't treat your fellow posters with respect, even in the face of provocation, then as far as I am concerned you have nothing of any consequence to say. (Please understand I use the word 'you' in its plural definition and I am not making a direct reference to the poster I have quoted above.)

[orion]

Just wish he was aloud to revamp speedway when the chance was there no doubt in my mind that speedway would be in better shape now.

And you still have not showed me any real facts and financial figures to show me the play/offs make money over a SEASON March until October .Listen if you are capable, to make it simple for you it is like the play/offs pay for a loan that has occurred over a season losses rain/offs and giving the supporter an opportunity to MISS meetings before the semi Finals.

Not again ...how many more times ? explain without the play offs how these matches would somehow have bigger crowds and have no losses ...we have made it simple for you time and time again come with no answer ? how hard can it be ?

[BWitcher]

I fail to see what point you are making here. The conversation I reported happened and if it happened once it could and probably has more than once.

 

I was not holding this conversation as proof of anything other than countering arguments that this issue is in some way an age related one with oldies like myself on one side of the argument and young people on the other side.

 

Whichever side of the argument you come down on it is not as simple as that there are people of all age groups sharing differing opinions. My suspicion (and I have only a suspicion) is that the majority are of the view that play offs are Unfair. It is my personal view that over time unfairness can cause fans to drift away. I am not saying (because that would be stupid) that it is the only reason fans drift away. In fact I think there are other issues far more important in that regard.

 

I will finish with this observation.

 

In all of my posts on this subject I have tried, I think successfully, not to resort to name calling, finger pointing, ridiculing, bad temper and so on. Others, from both sides of the debate, have failed to do so. If you don't treat your fellow posters with respect, even in the face of provocation, then as far as I am concerned you have nothing of any consequence to say. (Please understand I use the word 'you' in its plural definition and I am not making a direct reference to the poster I have quoted above.)

 

It doesn't happen very often. That's why you get 4 x more people come along to the playoff final.

 

If they thought it was unfair they wouldn't be there, like your lad.

Sorry, that doesn't make sense.

 

Why would you trust a clown unless you were desperate and if you were that desperate to trust the clown why go back to what made you desperate enough to trust the clown in the first place?

 

They likely had a bunch of old codgers telling them that their sons had stopped going to speedway because of the playoffs.. so thought lets try the old failed system again.. it didn't take them long to realise it was a load of cobblers and changed back.

 

One thing I will agree on though DAC is the attendances during the season won't be that much different whichever system is in place and will continue to decline until the sport sorts other issues out. We're really arguing over something that isn't particularly important.

 

Surely you agree that a far more important issue is teams constantly missing riders due to other clubs in the UK riding on the same night? Something that could quite easily be fixed.