The White Knight Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 Agree Sidney, the sport would survive at some level. However, in my opinion I strongly believe the play offs has saved clubs from closure. Surely that is a huge positive in favour. Never thought I would say that when first introduced. As previously stated I now don't look at it as who finishes top - making the playoffs is the objective. As far as I am aware the Play Off monies are shared by the Clubs involved in said Play Offs, and are not shared out among every Club in the League. Bearing this in mind - which Teams have been saved from closure by the Play Offs? I, for one, would love to know. hi hodgy, is there a club/s you know of that's been saved ...because of the play offs?....belle vue had been lowly for a number of years, yet planned a new stadium, so they were going nowhere? I get sidneys point, and to an extent get your point too, but as far as im aware, id not heard of any club saved by the play off. I stand corrected if wrong I haven't certainly. I bet no-one else has either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 (edited) Hi les, Yes, give me the fa premier league way than the speedway way. I think you'll find someone else mistakenly thought it was a relevant comparison, it isn't obviously is it les? You brought in football ..yet another short term memory loss no doubt . the bottom line that you can't come up with any reason why crowds would be bigger without the plays offs . in fact you already admitted that is important and crowds are bigger when matches mean something just like we have been saying . Edited November 30, 2015 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 I see, you can use less successful sports who have play offs to justify your opinion but I can't use more successful sports who don't use play offs to justify my opinion. I'll leave you with your less successful sports then. I thought you said he was using Football a moment ago ...what surely is a more successful sport ...maybe you forgot again ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 At the risk of causing you even more angst I suggested the pl football way was best, then bw told me that I can't compare speedway to football who then compared a speedway match to a football match! I pointed out that the 2nd leg of the semi final of the 3rd choice domestic team football competition wasn't a reasonable comparison to a semi final of the premier team speedway competition, especially when the first leg featured a freak result, that's when you joined in. I don't know what your native language is but try google translate as its quite good. What ? sorry i can't understand any of that ...can you slow down a bit so it makes some kind of sense ...where did you say that google translate was ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 At the risk of causing you even more angst I suggested the pl football way was best, then bw told me that I can't compare speedway to football who then compared a speedway match to a football match! I pointed out that the 2nd leg of the semi final of the 3rd choice domestic team football competition wasn't a reasonable comparison to a semi final of the premier team speedway competition, especially when the first leg featured a freak result, that's when you joined in. I don't know what your native language is but try google translate as its quite good. Correct you can't.. but as you insisted, the point you were trying to make was dismissed... with facts. Not made up speculation, but reality. Now as I have said, football is wildly successful and doesn't need to change its methods. Speedway wasn't.. you may have noticed but fans were deserting the sport in their droves under the old method too, so that made no difference did it? Many other sports have had similar problems, but reinvented themselves, brought in playoffs and are now thriving. Speedway just brought in playoffs.. on their own they can't save the situation. Earlier in the thread are a number of things speedway needs to fix to have success. Indeed, they are issues that are addressed in other countries, where the sport is much more successful (with playoffs). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanF Posted November 30, 2015 Report Share Posted November 30, 2015 I don't have any links or data but I would imagine that Sky insist on the playoffs. Therefore, no play offs probably means no sky. No sky means no handout. No handout means clubs closing. I may be totally wrong but I can se that playoffs may indirectly have prevented clubs from closing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgy Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) hi hodgy, is there a club/s you know of that's been saved ...because of the play offs?....belle vue had been lowly for a number of years, yet planned a new stadium, so they were going nowhere? I get sidneys point, and to an extent get your point too, but as far as im aware, id not heard of any club saved by the play off. I stand corrected if wrong As far as I am aware the Play Off monies are shared by the Clubs involved in said Play Offs, and are not shared out among every Club in the League. Bearing this in mind - which Teams have been saved from closure by the Play Offs? I, for one, would love to know. I haven't certainly. I bet no-one else has either. CM thanks for the response. TWK, why the need to appear sarcastic? It doesn't suit. Understand this is a passionate subject to you and your dislike of play offs. We all have our opinions - mine was based on viewing it from both sides, as I changed my mind. In response to your question: My comment was as stated, in my opinion. Peterborough, Birmingham, Swindon, Eastbourne, Edinburgh, Scunthorpe have benefited greatly from play offs when fighting survival with limited budgets. The attendance at Peterborough 2006 final was +4 times that of 1999 - resulting in red to black. They finished top of the league - but my understanding is the play offs saved the day. What a great day it was, even though I dislike 'it's a knockout' as much as TWK 😉 Edited December 1, 2015 by Hodgy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 I see, you can copy speedway in other countries because it might support your opinion? Not sure how old you are but I remember football suffering a severe decline in the late 70's early 80's, in fact speedway was touted as a serious 'second place' to football. Football attendance has increased significantly. Football got its act together and there isn't a single league decided by a play off, even non league Champions haven't sipped from the play off cup! In the meantime speedway league crowds dwindle. Surely if play offs are so good non league football would have their champions decided by a play off? Nope, like me they know the fa premier league got it right. Like I said, always back a winner! Well it is the same sport after all so it does make some kind of sense. Whereas you seem insistent on harping on about a totally different sport. Again though, seeing as you keep insisting on mentioning it. Footballs issues were to do with crowd violence and it generally being considered an unsafe place for many folk to attend. That is what they addressed, particularly in the Premier League with the advent of All Seater stadiums. That along with the Sky money being pumped in, the arrival of big name foreign players and the mass marketing saw an upturn. For the lower leagues it was somewhat harder.. however, its interesting what successful venture was brought into those leagues to stimulate seasons, to increase the excitement of the promotion chase to include many more teams.. what could it be.. what is this system you claim football never introduced. Like you keep saying, always back a winner, sadly for you, you're on the wrong horse again. It really would help if you'd educate yourself on topics before you start spouting this nonsense rhetoric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) Agree Sidney, the sport would survive at some level. However, in my opinion I strongly believe the play offs has saved clubs from closure. Surely that is a huge positive in favour. Never thought I would say that when first introduced. As previously stated I now don't look at it as who finishes top - making the playoffs is the objective.I believe the SKY money has saved clubs from closure? what is it 60,000???(only a guess).That is why i thought clubs by now would of cut there cloth accordingly just in case sky pulled out the play/offs money ( whoever gets it ?) helps of course but that does not pay for the season. Edited December 1, 2015 by sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Can I just point out that plenty of countries have play offs to determine their domestic league champions. Australia, nz, USA for starters. All leagues where there is no relegation, no European football to play for, and hence the need for something else to make matches meaningful. Why do you think playoffs are used for the final promotion spot in England? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 I see, you can copy speedway in other countries because it might support your opinion? Not sure how old you are but I remember football suffering a severe decline in the late 70's early 80's, in fact speedway was touted as a serious 'second place' to football. Football attendance has increased significantly. Football got its act together and there isn't a single league decided by a play off, even non league Champions haven't sipped from the play off cup! In the meantime speedway league crowds dwindle. Surely if play offs are so good non league football would have their champions decided by a play off? Nope, like me they know the fa premier league got it right. Like I said, always back a winner! Football was way ahead of speedway in using play offs to arrest a decline in attendances. The lower leagues always suffered dips in crowds once promotion was out of reach and relegation avoided. Play off where brought in for exactly that reason. Nowadays only a few teams get to the last matches of the season with nothing riding on them and crowds are up as a consequence The FA Premier League is a different animal because, at this moment in time, it isn't in decline and isn't looking for drastic ways to reinvent itself. Elite League Speedway was in massive decline and while play offs maybe haven't reversed the decline it is certain they have arrested it somewhat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Football was way ahead of speedway in using play offs to arrest a decline in attendances. More than 100 years ahead. They had them in the 19th century. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 I'm happy to stick to my theory that copying the fa premier league is the way to go. In your incredibly arrogant opinion that's irrelevant, perhaps the bspa agree with you? The random match you picked to compare football to speedway reveals a much more significant point. Citeh won the first leg 6-0, barring another freak result they had already qualified and you said the attendance in the next match was 42% of average. That's what happens when a team has already qualified, the match doesn't matter anymore and the attendance suffers. Einstein apparently said something along the lines of doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is a sign of madness. It's time the bspa got a bit creative, copy the fa pl think of something to replace relegation for the lower teams and give it a whirl. How would having no play offs make Speedway Great again and bring in loads of money .? As speedway could just follow the fa premier league and somehow everything would be great ....Do you think sky are going to give speedway a load of money just because it has no play offs . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Einstein apparently said something along the lines of doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is a sign of madness. It's time the bspa got a bit creative, copy the fa pl think of something to replace relegation for the lower teams and give it a whirl. They did exactly that 15 years ago. The old league format had been used for best part of 70 years and clubs were in dire straits. Fortunately the promoters had the foresight to recognise it and implemented a system that has saved many clubs from going to the wall. Strangely you are now advocating a return to the tried and failed system of pre 2000 Fortunately you dont run the sport or god help us all, stick to flipping burgers at McDonalds 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsmith Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 How by not having the play offs would it help clubs genarate more money . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) I don't think you quite grasped the bit about being creative did you, shame but not surprising. Anyone who thinks you can take something away without replacing it with something better and expect what's left to suddenly become better all by itself is quite stupid yet almost ad nauseum we read "How would having no play offs make Speedway Great again and bring in loads of money .?", the answer is obviously find something better! Is something better allowed? Like what ? it's all well and good of getting rid of something but if you do so you must come up with something that is better ....so explain what it is and how it would work . The question remains the same by removing the play offs how would the crowds get better ? so far not one answer Edited December 1, 2015 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 I don't think you quite grasped the bit about being creative did you, shame but not surprising. Anyone who thinks you can take something away without replacing it with something better and expect what's left to suddenly become better all by itself is quite stupid yet almost ad nauseum we read "How would having no play offs make Speedway Great again and bring in loads of money .?", the answer is obviously find something better! Is something better allowed? So now you don't want rid of the play offs unless something better is implemented? And when they find something better I am sure it will be implemented. Just like 15 years ago when they found a better way of running the league and bringing in loads of money. You have been advocating getting rid of a sure fire, proven, tried and tested money spinner to revert to a system that totally didn't work. Try thinking about what you post and see if it is consistent with your previous offerings and if it is actually sensible in the slightest. I know it would limit your input somewhat but it could help you to stop keep making a t!t of yourself 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) So now you don't want rid of the play offs unless something better is implemented? And when they find something better I am sure it will be implemented. Just like 15 years ago when they found a better way of running the league and bringing in loads of money. You have been advocating getting rid of a sure fire, proven, tried and tested money spinner to revert to a system that totally didn't work. Try thinking about what you post and see if it is consistent with your previous offerings and if it is actually sensible in the slightest. I know it would limit your input somewhat but it could help you to stop keep making a t!t of yourself But the FA Premier League do it.. You know, that totally comparable sport that has little media coverage, many folk have never heard off, takes place in run down stadiums and has very few sponsors pumping money into the sport.... I'm off to tell the local corner shop he's doing it all wrong and he should open up 100 branches across the country tomorrow cus that's how Continente (big supermarket over here) does it. It's about as comparable. Edited December 1, 2015 by BWitcher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 The current system is successful? The last 15 years has been an almost catostrphic for domestic speedway despite media coverage increasing from a little bit more than nil to several hours of live and recorded action a week. Yet again how do you link that to the play offs to that ? yet us know and then explain how your new system would make crowds bigger and bring more money into the sport . Yet again no answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) CM thanks for the response. TWK, why the need to appear sarcastic? It doesn't suit. Understand this is a passionate subject to you and your dislike of play offs. We all have our opinions - mine was based on viewing it from both sides, as I changed my mind. In response to your question: My comment was as stated, in my opinion. Peterborough, Birmingham, Swindon, Eastbourne, Edinburgh, Scunthorpe have benefited greatly from play offs when fighting survival with limited budgets. The attendance at Peterborough 2006 final was +4 times that of 1999 - resulting in red to black. They finished top of the league - but my understanding is the play offs saved the day. What a great day it was, even though I dislike 'it's a knockout' as much as TWK I apologise if my Post read as being sarcastic - it was not meant to be. I just wanted to get my point across. I certainly did not mean to offend you. Football was way ahead of speedway in using play offs to arrest a decline in attendances. The lower leagues always suffered dips in crowds once promotion was out of reach and relegation avoided. Play off where brought in for exactly that reason. Nowadays only a few teams get to the last matches of the season with nothing riding on them and crowds are up as a consequence The FA Premier League is a different animal because, at this moment in time, it isn't in decline and isn't looking for drastic ways to reinvent itself. Elite League Speedway was in massive decline and while play offs maybe haven't reversed the decline it is certain they have arrested it somewhat. I think you mean 'is'. So now you don't want rid of the play offs unless something better is implemented? And when they find something better I am sure it will be implemented. Just like 15 years ago when they found a better way of running the league and bringing in loads of money. You have been advocating getting rid of a sure fire, proven, tried and tested money spinner to revert to a system that totally didn't work. Try thinking about what you post and see if it is consistent with your previous offerings and if it is actually sensible in the slightest. I know it would limit your input somewhat but it could help you to stop keep making a t!t of yourself Only one person doing that and it is NOT Fred Flange. Personal remarks like that lose you the argument straight away. EDIT: Yet another typo on my account. I have inserted the word NOT which I meant to put in the first place. Edited December 1, 2015 by The White Knight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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