Aces51 Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 As regards resurrecting Speedway from the Ashes - it is singularly unsuccessful as is evidenced by ever decreasing Gates. If you apply that test then it applies equally to the play offs. Crowd levels have certainly dropped since their introduction and the argument that the sport lost more supporters before the play offs than since their introduction is far too simplistic. There were far more to lose because you start from a much higher base. Also, once you get down to the hard core you are less likely to lose them because most will carry on supporting their team no matter how much they disagree with the rules and politics. We don't know and probably never shall whether the overall crowd levels over a whole season would be as bad as they are now if we had kept the fairer and more credible system of the team finishing top of the league being crowned champions. Everyone can put forward their opinion but that is all it is, an opinion. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 If you apply that test then it applies equally to the play offs. Whooosh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 If you apply that test then it applies equally to the play offs. Crowd levels have certainly dropped since their introduction and the argument that the sport lost more supporters before the play offs than since their introduction is far too simplistic. There were far more to lose because you start from a much higher base. Also, once you get down to the hard core you are less likely to lose them because most will carry on supporting their team no matter how much they disagree with the rules and politics. We don't know and probably never shall whether the overall crowd levels over a whole season would be as bad as they are now if we had kept the fairer and more credible system of the team finishing top of the league being crowned champions. Everyone can put forward their opinion but that is all it is, an opinion. Of course it would be useful if crowd figures were published as is the case in Sweden (or certainly used to be) so as to get an idea year on year how attendances (see other thread) have fallen and to judge, accurately, trends within the speedway going public. I remember many years ago a questionnaire in circulation asking fans to submit their views but I can't remember when or what even the questions were!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 We don't know and probably never shall whether the overall crowd levels over a whole season would be as bad as they are now if we had kept the fairer and more credible system of the team finishing top of the league being crowned champions. Everyone can put forward their opinion but that is all it is, an opinion. No, but you can analyse all available data. You take 'playoffs'.. then see if 'playoffs' has had a detrimental effect in the sports it has been introduced in. If it was such a cancer a similar pattern would be seen elsewhere.. however it isn't. Neither is there a 'credibility' problem elsewhere either, that's another myth you've thrown in. Classic example, Rugby Union. Saracens finished 4th in the league but defeated Northampton who finished 1st in the Grand Final to become Premiership champions. Credibility problems? None Fans deserting the sport? Not at all There is absolutely NO evidence... I repeat.. NONE.. to suggest that playoffs have had a detrimental effect on the sport. The problems causing the decline existed before the playoffs and are still there after their introduction. One thing the playoffs HAS shown an ability to do is to get people to put aside the issues that stopped them from attending and go along to those meetings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 Whooosh Always a good reply when you have lost the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 Always a good reply when you have lost the argument. I'm having difficulty remaining polite with you WK. You're not this dumb so why are you acting like it? I asked you the question about the white helmet colour to highlight the ridiculousness of your claims with the playoffs. Your answer 100% confirmed it. Its YOUR analogy we are using, not mine.. so its YOUR argument that has been lost, not mine. YOU are the one who claims that because crowds have continued to decline after something was introduced, then said something is to blame.. YOUR argument, not mine. So based on YOUR argument, the white helmet colour is to blame as well. If you want to re-think your argument and put some kind of intelligent slant to it I'm all ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 If you apply that test then it applies equally to the play offs. Crowd levels have certainly dropped since their introduction and the argument that the sport lost more supporters before the play offs than since their introduction is far too simplistic. There were far more to lose because you start from a much higher base. Also, once you get down to the hard core you are less likely to lose them because most will carry on supporting their team no matter how much they disagree with the rules and politics. We don't know and probably never shall whether the overall crowd levels over a whole season would be as bad as they are now if we had kept the fairer and more credible system of the team finishing top of the league being crowned champions. Everyone can put forward their opinion but that is all it is, an opinion. Yet again it's easy to gage as other sports have play offs and have worked ....so they have no problem with being credible so why would speedway fans ? ...so yet another only in speedway myth . as you say everyone can opinion but if your going to have one at least come up with logic or common sense on why crowds would be bigger when there would be nothing to race for most of the time , IF the sport was more creditable, and all the Promoters thought of the sport first, probably then they could entice more people to attain. But while they think only of themselves, they continue to complicate the rules and belittle the important of bread and butter leagues matches the 'Micky Mouse' existence will continue..... Yet again being creditable and promoters putting fans first has nothing to do with subject matter the play offs first of all no other sports has no problems with the play offs and being creditable , Also most of the fans bar a % of over 55 love the plays offs so in that respect the promoters are putting the fans first . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces51 Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 No, but you can analyse all available data. You take 'playoffs'.. then see if 'playoffs' has had a detrimental effect in the sports it has been introduced in. If it was such a cancer a similar pattern would be seen elsewhere.. however it isn't. Neither is there a 'credibility' problem elsewhere either, that's another myth you've thrown in. Classic example, Rugby Union. Saracens finished 4th in the league but defeated Northampton who finished 1st in the Grand Final to become Premiership champions. Credibility problems? None Fans deserting the sport? Not at all There is absolutely NO evidence... I repeat.. NONE.. to suggest that playoffs have had a detrimental effect on the sport. The problems causing the decline existed before the playoffs and are still there after their introduction. One thing the playoffs HAS shown an ability to do is to get people to put aside the issues that stopped them from attending and go along to those meetings. I hoped for more than waffle. No matter how you try to twist and turn and make comparisons with other sports you cannot get away from the point you ignored. Crowd levels have continued to fall and according to you that makes the play offs unsuccessful and could be evidence that they have had a detrimental effect. Now I wouldn't go that far. The finals have drawn good crowds by today's standards but what we don't know and probably never shall, is whether the total numbers over a full season would be as bad if we still had a proper league system rather than a cup qualifying competition. Also, let me say now I have read all of the posts on this topic and I have made my point. I do not expect you to agree with me and doubt you will be able to resist the urge to reply. However, I see not point in continually rehearsing the same arguments, it will not be a case of not being able to answer whatever points you make but simply that it would be pointless exercise. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Sidney Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 The comparison to rugby union is not entirely correct. One of the reasons for the playoffs in rugby is to compensate teams who lose players to international matches. For example, when the Six Nations is on league matches still continue, meaning sides with most international players are disadvantaged (no guest system in rugby thank goodness). That allows a team that does not finish top of the league, but who might have done other than for the fact that they had had to play a number of games understrength, still to have a chance of being champions. There are no doubt other reasons, but that is a difference to speedway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted November 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 (edited) If you apply that test then it applies equally to the play offs. Crowd levels have certainly dropped since their introduction and the argument that the sport lost more supporters before the play offs than since their introduction is far too simplistic. There were far more to lose because you start from a much higher base. Also, once you get down to the hard core you are less likely to lose them because most will carry on supporting their team no matter how much they disagree with the rules and politics. We don't know and probably never shall whether the overall crowd levels over a whole season would be as bad as they are now if we had kept the fairer and more credible system of the team finishing top of the league being crowned champions. Everyone can put forward their opinion but that is all it is, an opinion. A great post and you are so right it is only our opinions after all,i don't understand Oldace his stance against the oldies me included without us we would probably not have play/offs or speedway at all.Myself i want youngsters to replace us,it would be great but it is not happening my two sons are great examples both dont go now.It is frustrating because they both keep in touch with the sport but both feel now it is poor value for money.Surely there is a place for all age groups? i hope so the play/offs stay i hope crowds improve but i don't see it myself clubs only get back money what they have lost earlier in the season. Edited November 27, 2015 by sidney 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 The comparison to rugby union is not entirely correct. One of the reasons for the playoffs in rugby is to compensate teams who lose players to international matches. For example, when the Six Nations is on league matches still continue, meaning sides with most international players are disadvantaged (no guest system in rugby thank goodness). That allows a team that does not finish top of the league, but who might have done other than for the fact that they had had to play a number of games understrength, still to have a chance of being champions. There are no doubt other reasons, but that is a difference to speedway. Wheras in speedway riders never miss meetings during the normal season? In any case, if we are talking rugby, the Super15 never has players missing due to international commitments. Yet that uses play offs. NPC? The same. Rugby League. NRL - hmm the same. A great post and you are so right it is only our opinions after all,i don't understand Oldace his stance against the oldies me included without us we would probably not have play/offs or speedway at all.Myself i want youngsters to replace us,it would be great but it is not happening my two sons are great examples both dont go now.It is frustrating because they both keep in touch with the sport but both feel now it is poor value for money.Surely there is a place for all age groups? i hope so the play/offs stay i hope crowds improve but i don't see it myself clubs only get back money what they have lost earlier in the season. the point Oldace is making is that it would be better the sport was improved and rebranded, to make it attractive to crowds of 5000 youngsters rather than 500 oldies. If those oldies kept attending, and I'm sure you would Sid, then that's a bonus. But a sport with a very small core support base needs to look for ways to make it more attractive to a much larger audience, rather than cater to an unsustainably low core customer base. Well the advent of 'Play Offs', 'Double Points' et al has certainly been a startling success at NOT bringing people back to Speedway. Unless the 'Play Off' Gate money is shared out around the Track, which I don't believe it is, then they don't exactly benefit the whole Sport do they? Just those Clubs who are in said Play Offs. yet the teams who finish 5th and 6th are generally in the hunt for a play off spot until the end of the season, ensuring that they too have higher gates than they would have done otherwise. Fact is that a much greater proportion of matches have meaning, and hence higher crowds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 And yet you keep telling us that it is only the 'old fogies' who go to Speedway these days. You can't have it both ways. :nono: When did I say only old fogies go to speedway ...show me the post ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 I'm having difficulty remaining polite with you WK. You're not this dumb so why are you acting like it? I asked you the question about the white helmet colour to highlight the ridiculousness of your claims with the playoffs. Your answer 100% confirmed it. Its YOUR analogy we are using, not mine.. so its YOUR argument that has been lost, not mine. YOU are the one who claims that because crowds have continued to decline after something was introduced, then said something is to blame.. YOUR argument, not mine. So based on YOUR argument, the white helmet colour is to blame as well. If you want to re-think your argument and put some kind of intelligent slant to it I'm all ears. You asked me a badly worded question about the White Helmet Cover. I answered it in a civilised way. You never mentioned 'Play Offs'. What am I - a mind reader? You seem to be getting more and more desperate with every Post you make on this Thread. I am beginning to think that Aces51, in the last sentence of his excellent Post, has the right of it. I quote: "it will not be a case of not being able to answer whatever points you make but simply that it would be pointless exercise". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgy Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 Chaps / Chapettes, it's all getting a tad personal due to strong differing opinions. Sometimes a debate loses the subject and becomes a 'must win' argument, as most threads do on this forum. Presenting facts from both sides will rarely convert ones preference - this discussion is now at a stalemate regarding Individual preference v benefits to our sport. The positive is we all view this forum because we have a common desire - Speedway. When first introduced I was not in favour of play offs. I didn't like the idea of a team finishing 4th crowned league champions. However, I strongly believe the play offs have contributed greatly to saving clubs from extinction. The 'die hards' will always continue to support their team - but there are not enough of us left to make it pay. Fans are fickle, certainly at my team Peterborough - many will only attend a meaningful meeting. Therefore I now look at it differently, it's now all about qualifying for the end of season showdown - not who finishes top. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted November 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 Wheras in speedway riders never miss meetings during the normal season? In any case, if we are talking rugby, the Super15 never has players missing due to international commitments. Yet that uses play offs. NPC? The same. Rugby League. NRL - hmm the same. the point Oldace is making is that it would be better the sport was improved and rebranded, to make it attractive to crowds of 5000 youngsters rather than 500 oldies. If those oldies kept attending, and I'm sure you would Sid, then that's a bonus. But a sport with a very small core support base needs to look for ways to make it more attractive to a much larger audience, rather than cater to an unsustainably low core customer base. yet the teams who finish 5th and 6th are generally in the hunt for a play off spot until the end of the season, ensuring that they too have higher gates than they would have done otherwise. Fact is that a much greater proportion of matches have meaning, and hence higher crowds. I think Oldace must be in cloud cookoo land if he believes the thinking overnight dont mind losing five hundred oldies on the gate to get 3000? as they will be replaced by a load of newbies.Where will these newbies come from out of the sky? speedway is so different to alot of sports unique it is in your blood families often have taken there kids and they have created the next generation.Would i like speedway to be like Darts no i wouldn't, i watch darts enjoy it but lets be honest it is just a boozed up crowd shouting and hollering.Barry Hearn is good at what he does, but he does it to make money just for HIMSELF and he is a DICTATOR now he is head of snooker i hardly watch for me he has ruined it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 You asked me a badly worded question about the White Helmet Cover. I answered it in a civilised way. You never mentioned 'Play Offs'. What am I - a mind reader? You seem to be getting more and more desperate with every Post you make on this Thread. I am beginning to think that Aces51, in the last sentence of his excellent Post, has the right of it. I quote: "it will not be a case of not being able to answer whatever points you make but simply that it would be pointless exercise". There was nothing badly worded about it. You assert that, as crowds have fallen since the play offs were introduced then it must be the play offs to blame. Lits of other things have come into the sport since 2000 so presumably they are ewually to blame. You can cite any change since then and pin the blame for the decline on that event, however ludicrous, but with overwhelming evidence that certain events have actually halted the decline rather than contributed to it, that stance really only serves to make you look foolish. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 I think Oldace must be in cloud cookoo land if he believes the thinking overnight dont mind losing five hundred oldies on the gate to get 3000? as they will be replaced by a load of newbies.Where will these newbies come from out of the sky? speedway is so different to alot of sports unique it is in your blood families often have taken there kids and they have created the next generation.Would i like speedway to be like Darts no i wouldn't, i watch darts enjoy it but lets be honest it is just a boozed up crowd shouting and hollering.Barry Hearn is good at what he does, but he does it to make money just for HIMSELF and he is a DICTATOR now he is head of snooker i hardly watch for me he has ruined it. My Grandfather and father both went to speedway and we three sons followed suit. It was definitely in my family 'blood.' Dad went to Oxford's very first meeting in 1949 (not counting the few pre-war meetings that were held at Cowley) right up until 2003. I haven't been since 2003 but what I read and see it is obviously of very serious concern that youngsters are somewhat scarce on the terraces today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted November 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 My Grandfather and father both went to speedway and we three sons followed suit. It was definitely in my family 'blood.' Dad went to Oxford's very first meeting in 1949 (not counting the few pre-war meetings that were held at Cowley) right up until 2003. I haven't been since 2003 but what I read and see it is obviously of very serious concern that youngsters are somewhat scarce on the terraces today.I really believe "steve that speedway is a SPECIAL sport, it can't be bought and changed overnight as you said it is in your blood.I see the ex riders Briggo,Broady,and endless others (ect) totally love the sport they are ex riders but they are still totally engrossed in the sport.My wish is for all Promoters to get together and really put there heads together and move the sport forward but there is not alot of chance of that happening anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted November 27, 2015 Report Share Posted November 27, 2015 (edited) why are certain posters desperate to win this discussion.? some like the play offs, some don't, theres not a right or wrong. its opinions, just like politics and religion, no one is right or wrong!! Edited November 27, 2015 by ColinMills 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted November 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 why are certain posters desperate to win this discussion.? some like the play offs, some don't, theres not a right or wrong. its opinions, just like politics and religion, no one is right or wrong!! Tell Witcher and Orion that Colin, is there a right or wrong for me it is just every bodies opinion no more no less. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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