orion Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) That is what i am saying something has to change,you have to admit the crowds were really quite poor at times.Swindon have generally over the years had excellent crowds how many times did it hit 1,500 when it was 17 pound a head not many i think. It not what you said ..you that the Lakeside crowd was poor because of the plays offs ...so I ask again why without the plays offs would that match have had a higher crowd ....if think crowds are poor because of the play offs you have to come up with logic to back it or why they would be higher without them . Edited November 24, 2015 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted November 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 Totally agree thank goodness I am not the only one in the world that thinks this .Fast Gater i think i remember us finishing bottom 3 or 4 times? at least 3,it never bothered me at all my thrill was usually seeing a real top class visiting no1 come to the abbey every week. It not what you said ..you that the Lakeside crowd was poor because of the plays offs ...so I ask again why without the plays offs would that match have had a higher crowd ....if think crowds are poor because of the play offs you have to come up with logic to back it up.With my suggestion i don't think the crowds would differ why would they?in a way a team would have two CHANCES to be champions or win a consolation play off final.But you have not answered the question that i asked do you believe something needs to change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 Am I missing something here? Whether it's an important end of season fixture or just a challenge affair shouldn't it be the entertainment value that's the most important criteria? If the overall package is less than perfect people will vote with their feet...which is what apparently is happening year on year! Just merely suggesting that a Play-Off competition increases interest and awareness is just plain naive in my view. The product needs to be right and until the BSPA get their heads round that fact speedway will continually become more of a minority sport in the eyes of the majority. Having a 'decent' crowd during the Play-Offs doesn't hide the fact that attendances are down overall during the season. The old League Cup created a competition based on a Play-Off system and that was scrapped (like may other competitions) as fans became more and more selective in their viewing habits! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted November 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) Am I missing something here? Whether it's an important end of season fixture or just a challenge affair shouldn't it be the entertainment value that's the most important criteria? If the overall package is less than perfect people will vote with their feet...which is what apparently is happening year on year! Just merely suggesting that a Play-Off competition increases interest and awareness is just plain naive in my view. The product needs to be right and until the BSPA get their heads round that fact speedway will continually become more of a minority sport in the eyes of the majority. Having a 'decent' crowd during the Play-Offs doesn't hide the fact that attendances are down overall during the season. The old League Cup created a competition based on a Play-Off system and that was scrapped (like may other competitions) as fans became more and more selective in their viewing habits!Agree totally Steve,if you are not entertained even a bloke like me who never misses a home meeting might be tempted to pick and choose his meeting's more.The last few years i have felt that often i have been going on sufferance and habit then along came a few good races which rekindles your enthusiasm. Edited November 24, 2015 by sidney 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 Why do they have outright CHAMPONS in the football league? is it to REWARD the best team over the entire season no different to a GP series. Because that is the method used in that sport. Speedway another one is used. Playoffs isn't unique to speedway, if it was, you'd have a point. There are many sports that use it to determine their champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 Fast Gater i think i remember us finishing bottom 3 or 4 times? at least 3,it never bothered me at all my thrill was usually seeing a real top class visiting no1 come to the abbey every week. With my suggestion i don't think the crowds would differ why would they?in a way a team would have two CHANCES to be champions or win a consolation play off final.But you have not answered the question that i asked do you believe something needs to change? I Have answered your question nothing has to change with the subject we are talking about the play offs ...unless you can up with some logic on why the crowrds would be bigger without them .as I said before fans don't want consolation finals they have been done before and they don't work . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 Am I missing something here? Whether it's an important end of season fixture or just a challenge affair shouldn't it be the entertainment value that's the most important criteria? If the overall package is less than perfect people will vote with their feet...which is what apparently is happening year on year! Just merely suggesting that a Play-Off competition increases interest and awareness is just plain naive in my view. The product needs to be right and until the BSPA get their heads round that fact speedway will continually become more of a minority sport in the eyes of the majority. Having a 'decent' crowd during the Play-Offs doesn't hide the fact that attendances are down overall during the season. The old League Cup created a competition based on a Play-Off system and that was scrapped (like may other competitions) as fans became more and more selective in their viewing habits! Yes you are missing the point massively. Firstly, 'quality of racing' has little bearing on attendances... that is proven. Secondly it does increase interest and awareness, you've admitted it in your post. "Crowds are down! What can we do!.. ah yes, those meetings still get good crowds.. get rid of them!" That's the way to do it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 Yes you are missing the point massively. Firstly, 'quality of racing' has little bearing on attendances... that is proven. Secondly it does increase interest and awareness, you've admitted it in your post. "Crowds are down! What can we do!.. ah yes, those meetings still get good crowds.. get rid of them!" That's the way to do it. Sorry don't understand your logic but I can see that reading thru' this thread that the whole debate is getting bogged down and I really don't understand the arguments for and against! The point that I was trying to make is that attendances (see my other thread) are down generally and different league structures and/or formulae will not alter that fact. There is a bigger picture and, I repeat, until the BSPA withdraw their heads from the sand speedway will continue its downward spiral! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted November 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 I Have answered your question nothing has to change with the subject we are talking about the play offs ...unless you can up with some logic on why the crowrds would be bigger without them .as I said before fans don't want consolation finals they have been done before and they don't work .Without the play/offs do you think the diehards like myself would stop going? do you think the play/offs are the saviour of our sport i personally don't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 Without the play/offs do you think the diehards like myself would stop going? do you think the play/offs are the saviour of our sport i personally don't. I agree! It's no good having good crowds attending an end of season climax if the 'bread and butter' (albeit important) meetings generate less interest! "Icing and cake' comes immediately to mind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 I agree! It's no good having good crowds attending an end of season climax if the 'bread and butter' (albeit important) meetings generate less interest! "Icing and cake' comes immediately to mind! I agree! Yes brilliant thinking! Oh wait.. Before blindly agreeing, have a think about what you are agreeing too.. why are fixtures suddenly more important if playoffs aren't there.. A clash between a 4th and 5th placed team, with no chance of being top.. hey, last year this was a battle to see who gets into the playoffs, wasn't interested! But now there's no playoffs this is a must see clash! Batten down the hatches, the crowds will come pouring in! You hit the nail on your head with an earlier post Steve, the issues aren't to do with league formats so blaming the playoffs is just silly. The issues are to do with poor promotion, dragged out meetings, ever weakening league, riders consistently missing as racing for other teams on the same night, manipulation and at times downright breaking of rules by certain teams and general treating the public like mugs as we are seeing this close season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve roberts Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 I agree! Yes brilliant thinking! Oh wait.. Before blindly agreeing, have a think about what you are agreeing too.. why are fixtures suddenly more important if playoffs aren't there.. A clash between a 4th and 5th placed team, with no chance of being top.. hey, last year this was a battle to see who gets into the playoffs, wasn't interested! But now there's no playoffs this is a must see clash! Batten down the hatches, the crowds will come pouring in! You hit the nail on your head with an earlier post Steve, the issues aren't to do with league formats so blaming the playoffs is just silly. The issues are to do with poor promotion, dragged out meetings, ever weakening league, riders consistently missing as racing for other teams on the same night, manipulation and at times downright breaking of rules by certain teams and general treating the public like mugs as we are seeing this close season. We obviously agree to disagree! We obviously agree to disagree! Although I do agree with your last paragraph! We obviously agree to disagree! Although I do agree with your last paragraph! Having said that not sure what we're disagreeing about now! These threads do tend to get confusing as they often go down blind alleys...nothing to do with the original question. I've given up trying to dissect some of the other threads on this forum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) Without the play/offs do you think the diehards like myself would stop going? do you think the play/offs are the saviour of our sport i personally don't. Of course I know you would still go Sid because you love your speedway and you not to worried about the result ...sadly not everyone is like you . When did anyone say that the Play offs were the saviour of the sport ? I look at the whole topic and I have not seen one person say that or suggest that . Edited November 24, 2015 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) Simply because there is absolutely no logical reason as to why it would be. Basically the argument we've seen presented is.. "I don't go to speedway anymore because of the playoffs. I only go to the playoffs now" That makes sense. I don't go because of 'Double Points' - so some Supporters may not attend because of the 'Play Offs' - they aren't fair on the Team that has already won the League once - and then have to win it again. The big thing difference is that in Football play offs there is a massive carrot for winning them hence why fans watch them ...having a play off cup that does not have the league title on line means nothing to the fans and hence why no one would watch it ...that is why we don't have the craven shield Jack Young play off cup any more as they have been tried and never worked .. The Football Premier League doesn't have Play Offs - I wonder why? I agree! Yes brilliant thinking! Oh wait.. Before blindly agreeing, have a think about what you are agreeing too.. why are fixtures suddenly more important if playoffs aren't there.. A clash between a 4th and 5th placed team, with no chance of being top.. hey, last year this was a battle to see who gets into the playoffs, wasn't interested! But now there's no playoffs this is a must see clash! Batten down the hatches, the crowds will come pouring in! You hit the nail on your head with an earlier post Steve, the issues aren't to do with league formats so blaming the playoffs is just silly. The issues are to do with poor promotion, dragged out meetings, ever weakening league, riders consistently missing as racing for other teams on the same night, manipulation and at times downright breaking of rules by certain teams and general treating the public like mugs as we are seeing this close season. I totally agree with your final sentence. Only your final sentence. Edited November 24, 2015 by The White Knight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 We obviously agree to disagree! Although I do agree with your last paragraph! Having said that not sure what we're disagreeing about now! These threads do tend to get confusing as they often go down blind alleys...nothing to do with the original question. I've given up trying to dissect some of the other threads on this forum! There is no 'agreeing to disagree' on this issue, that is the whole point. You are seriously telling me that a clash between a 4th and 5th placed team, with no hope of winning the league is of more interest when there are no playoffs to aim for than when there are? Seriously? There is no logic in this whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 There is no 'agreeing to disagree' on this issue, that is the whole point. You are seriously telling me that a clash between a 4th and 5th placed team, with no hope of winning the league is of more interest when there are no playoffs to aim for than when there are? Seriously? There is no logic in this whatsoever. There is no logic in having to win the League TWICE in one Season either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 I don't go because of 'Double Points' - so some Supporters may not attend because of the 'Play Offs' - they aren't fair on the Team that has already won the League once - and then have to win it again. The Football Premier League doesn't have Play Offs - I wonder why? I totally agree with your final sentence. Only your final sentence. Yes they are fair. They haven't won it once at all, that is something you have just completely and utterly made up. The rules are simple, the winners of the Grand Final are champions. Nobody has won anything till that point. Ah the old 'football' analogy. They don't need it because its the biggest and most successful sport in the world. However, football in some countries does indeed have playoffs and other systems. All you do by bringing other sports into the argument is shoot yourself in the foot as many, many sports use playoffs and they don't affect crowds. Hence you have nothing, absolutely nothing on which to base any thesis that this happens in speedway by looking at other sports. And again, your final comment is you just being too stubborn... you know you're wrong.. but you're too stubborn to admit it.. Otherwise, if you were right, you could very easily tell me exactly WHY a 4th v 5th place fixture where neither team can win the league is more attractive than a 4th v 5th place fixture where a play off place is up for grabs. There is no logic in having to win the League TWICE in one Season either. Nobody does, again that's you in fairy land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 Yes they are fair. They haven't won it once at all, that is something you have just completely and utterly made up. The rules are simple, the winners of the Grand Final are champions. Nobody has won anything till that point. Ah the old 'football' analogy. They don't need it because its the biggest and most successful sport in the world. However, football in some countries does indeed have playoffs and other systems. All you do by bringing other sports into the argument is shoot yourself in the foot as many, many sports use playoffs and they don't affect crowds. Hence you have nothing, absolutely nothing on which to base any thesis that this happens in speedway by looking at other sports. And again, your final comment is you just being too stubborn... you know you're wrong.. but you're too stubborn to admit it.. Otherwise, if you were right, you could very easily tell me exactly WHY a 4th v 5th place fixture where neither team can win the league is more attractive than a 4th v 5th place fixture where a play off place is up for grabs. Nobody does, again that's you in fairy land. I'm not talking about Fourth or Fifth placed Teames for Pete's sake - I am talking about the true League Champions - if you are too dim to see that - then it is not my fault. I don't give a damn about the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth or any other position - only the right and proper League Champions who have won the League over a Season. As for Fairyland - there are a lot who agree with me about the Play Offs and I'd rather be in Fairyland than Cloud Cuckoo Land like yourself. Oh!! and I am not being stubborn - I am stating what I believe to be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) The Football Premier League doesn't have Play Offs - I wonder why? As already explained you have champions league spots . , relegation and the higher you finish means you can million of extra pounds ...something that Speedway does not the luxury of . so yet another easy question to answer Edited November 24, 2015 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted November 24, 2015 Report Share Posted November 24, 2015 I'm not talking about Fourth or Fifth placed Teames for Pete's sake - I am talking about the true League Champions - if you are too dim to see that - then it is not my fault. I don't give a damn about the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth or any other position - only the right and proper League Champions who have won the League over a Season. As for Fairyland - there are a lot who agree with me about the Play Offs and I'd rather be in Fairyland than Cloud Cuckoo Land like yourself. Oh!! and I am not being stubborn - I am stating what I believe to be right. You're making things up again. The True champions are the winners determined by the rules of that particular sport, not by what some pensioner decides in Sunderland. In Speedway the TRUE champions are the winners of the Grand Final, its not a difficult concept. Interesting you don't give a damn about any other position in the league though, that renders redundant the argument anti-playoff folk keep pushing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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