Woz01 Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) So Buczkowski who attained his average as a heat leader in the same format isn't on the list just because he didnt ride in 2015? Ridiculous! Its ok to use Ellis 2014 PL average to convert but not ok to use Buzz 2014 EL average to put him on the heat leader list,ridiculous! Edited November 22, 2015 by woz01 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve0 Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 We can all put forward arguments as to why a certain rider should or shouldn't be on a HL list - but my understanding is that the BSPA list was only based on riders who rode in 2015 PLUS any new foreign riders that would be assessed at 6.50 There is no argument - Buzz last rode as a HL and should come back as a HL! You cannot just ignore history to suit FFS! Or interpret the rules to suit a point being made! You mentioned Swindon - I don't know the relevance to the point I made but I will say that if they did try and sign 4 HLs they would be cheating too! You cannot justify a wrong by pointing out another! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdmc82 Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 So Buczkowski who attained his average as a heat leader in the same format isn't on the list just because he didnt ride in 2015? Ridiculous! Its ok to use Ellis 2014 PL average to convert but not ok to use Buzz 2014 EL average to put him on the heat leader list,ridiculous! If that's the case then does that mean Kaspazak isn't on the list as he didn't ride here either last year? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve0 Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 Not cheating at all...................every team has every opportunity to sign any riders within the rules as they stand............at the moment no one really knows what the criteria is for the so called heat leader list............though I can see why some people think certain riders should be on the list and others should not..............Who says Rory is on the heat leader list.................everyone is making assumptions as to who is and who is not without it ever being released................... If a rider did not ride in 2015 such as Buzz, Mads etc why should they be on the heat leader list other than if their averages were taken as at the end of the previous season of racing and they were higher than what they could have been at the end of 2015..................... Its not Poole manipulating anything at all.................its other teams not using the rules to their best advantage................ RP Call it what you want but everyone else sees it for what it is - CHEATING! So Buczkowski who attained his average as a heat leader in the same format isn't on the list just because he didnt ride in 2015? Ridiculous! Its ok to use Ellis 2014 PL average to convert but not ok to use Buzz 2014 EL average to put him on the heat leader list,ridiculous! ABSOLUTELY! I couldn't agree more 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) out of interest then SCB, how many of the last 20 meetings did Ricky Wells ride as a heat leader but he is classed as a second string13. So he should be a heat leader if Danny King is one. Edited November 22, 2015 by SCB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 But if there was a definitive BSPA list, it would have been a lot longer than 24 riders. Why wouldn't the likes of every GP rider not be on it - they are all of HL standard. No club knew in advance of the AGM which riders would be available and which wouldn't, otherwise why aren't the Emils, Lagutas, Vaculiks, Hancocks, Gollobs etc etc not on the list? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) But if there was a definitive BSPA list, it would have been a lot longer than 24 riders. Why wouldn't the likes of every GP rider not be on it - they are all of HL standard. No club knew in advance of the AGM which riders would be available and which wouldn't, otherwise why aren't the Emils, Lagutas, Vaculiks, Hancocks, Gollobs etc etc not on the list? Its simple enough, anyone who average has been attained in the last two seasons riding primarily as a heat leader is a heat leader. As is any new rider over 6.5. The rest, they're second strings. The issue is the list shouldn't be a heatleader list. It should be a "has a low/bargain average because they ride as a heatleader" list. Edited November 22, 2015 by SCB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 So I agree it is another simple enough option but still only another opinion - but that would surely mean the likes of Schlein would be a heat leader and Lambert a 2nd string, as examples?! And how would you work out averages for team building purposes within the limit? Taking someone like Hans Andersen, whose average on your suggestion would be somewhere between 8.33 and 6.45 - I'm sure you have the figures??! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 So I agree it is another simple enough option but still only another opinion - but that would surely mean the likes of Schlein would be a heat leader and Lambert a 2nd string, as examples?! And how would you work out averages for team building purposes within the limit? Taking someone like Hans Andersen, whose average on your suggestion would be somewhere between 8.33 and 6.45 - I'm sure you have the figures??! Schlein should be a "heat leader" and Lambert not though. That seems fair. Hans is a heat leader too. If you have a heat leader list, you have to make sure the heat leaders are people who rode as heat leaders. Otherwise it does nothing. Are PK and Bjerre by virtue of there 5.9ush averages second strings? Or are they heat leaders as they got them lower averages because they rode in the harder heat leader positions? Had they both ride as second strings all year they'd probably be 8 point riders after all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 So what happens to those riders 'of heat leader standard' by your definition who do not get a team place? And how does your suggestion cater for riders like KK as an example, who hasn't ridden here in the last 2 years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) So what happens to those riders 'of heat leader standard' by your definition who do not get a team place? And how does your suggestion cater for riders like KK as an example, who hasn't ridden here in the last 2 years?My list would only make anyone who has raced 70% of meetings (so 14 out of 20 for most) in the last 2 seasons as a heat leader a "heat leader". Anyone who's raced less probably doesn't have too biased an average while any rider who's not raced here for two season has not raced in the biased format that screws their average. Id also not call it a heat leader list but a "tier 1" list. And how is anyone on my "list" any more likely to not get a job than using the BSPAs made up list?! Actually. Scrub that, I'd just weight every riders average based on riding position from the last two seasons. No need to lists then! Edited November 22, 2015 by SCB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 But if there was a definitive BSPA list, it would have been a lot longer than 24 riders. Why wouldn't the likes of every GP rider not be on it - they are all of HL standard. No club knew in advance of the AGM which riders would be available and which wouldn't, otherwise why aren't the Emils, Lagutas, Vaculiks, Hancocks, Gollobs etc etc not on the list? Isn't the purpose of the list to differentiate better the skew caused by the new heat format, so to list riders of HL "standard"? Buczkowski achieved less than half his average as a HL in the new format, KK none of his average, so why would they be on the list? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bees_Man Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 Poole at it again. Shocked, NOT 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Panda Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 Call it what you want but everyone else sees it for what it is - CHEATING! Funny I don't see anyone else saying its 'cheating' and please re read my post - I said no one and that includes you knows what the criteria is for the heat leader list and everyone is making assumptions as to who it on it................and who is not and who should be for that matter............until it is known then you cannot make the allegations of cheating............... My list would only make anyone who has raced 70% of meetings (so 14 out of 20 for most) in the last 2 seasons as a heat leader a "heat leader". Anyone who's raced less probably doesn't have too biased an average while any rider who's not raced here for two season has not raced in the biased format that screws their average. Id also not call it a heat leader list but a "tier 1" list. And how is anyone on my "list" any more likely to not get a job than using the BSPAs made up list?! Actually. Scrub that, I'd just weight every riders average based on riding position from the last two seasons. No need to lists then! And did Buzz ride 70 % of the last two seasons as a heat leader????????? I don't believe he did so Steve O if what SCB believes is right it makes a mockery of what you said.............. And please note at no point have I ever said who should and should not be on the list....... RP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaColette Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 Poole at it again. Shocked, NOTHow are we at it again?! Did Poole draw up the list on their own then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavan Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 Wow yet again the fans of the Poole 'fiddlers' Pirates amaze. There will be a list with the names of 24 heat leaders on it from last seasons elite league - simple If someone comes back to this country after having a break and there average is higher than someone on the list they come back as a heat leader if that average was gained in a heat leader position - simple Any rider coming back to the uk does not replace someone on the list. I.E the 24th rider on the list doesnt become a second string now if KK is back or anyone else - simple. If Hans Andersen i on the list of 24 riders he stays on the list irrelevent of who comes back to the UK. Bucks average was gained from a heat leader role so he will be a heat leader not hard to understand. Hans Andersen (if on the list which lets face it if he isnt is a huge fiddle) will also be a heat leader leaving one place left (Holder?) Otherwise a team could take 3 riders off the list but leave 8 or 9 points and then sign Hampel or Woffinden. Come on Poole fans its not hard to understand surely. If anyone thinks Hans Andersen should not be a heat leader (i.e one of the top 24 riders in the league) then i suggest they dont know much about the sport. He is on a low average yet the south coast mafia arent happy with that they want it manipulated taht he rides as a second string 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaColette Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 I don't think they said they want him as second string, just that they have heard/think he will be second string. For me I have no clue, until teams are completed/list is released then it's just talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 Isn't the purpose of the list to differentiate better the skew caused by the new heat format, so to list riders of HL "standard"? Buczkowski achieved less than half his average as a HL in the new format, KK none of his average, so why would they be on the list? Which is another reason why I have stated that they are NOT on the list - BUT will clearly be used as heat leaders by their respective clubs. If the BSPA 'Heat Leader standard' list (as it was described inn the BSPA statement) has been agreed by all the promoters as being fair, then why are there accusations of 'rule-bending'??. If a rider is signed from the list and is one of only 3 allowed from the list for each club, then fine. If a rider is signed who is not on the list then equally where is the issue> They will line-up in the riding order as determined by their averages. QED. Job done. Once again its all down to promoters seeing who is available and agreeing deals quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavan Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 I don't think they said they want him as second string, just that they have heard/think he will be second string. For me I have no clue, until teams are completed/list is released then it's just talk. You dont think Poole will want him as a second string??? Of course they would. As is say Hans Andersen should be on the list quite clearly. The cloak and dagger of it all will only lead to accusations. If somehow Hans or Buck are classed as second strings its farcical and makes the sport a joke. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 (edited) And did Buzz ride 70 % of the last two seasons as a heat leader????????? I don't believe he did so Steve O if what SCB believes is right it makes a mockery of what you said.............. Bizz rode 100% of his meetings in the last 2 seasons as a heat leader. People need to stop blaming Poole too. This is the BSPA screwing up and giving Poole an advantage rather than Poole being underhand. Edited November 22, 2015 by SCB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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