Rob VDS Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 More hoped for déjà vu, in 1969, the year before we went on to dominate the BL and win three on the trot we were pipped for the title by Poole. Nothing dodgy back then though. I just want to confirm this as I'd not considered it before reading this thead. It is ok to cheat in sport if you don't get found out? It is ok to cheat in sport if there is no perceived advantage? I'm pretty sure that if there's no perceived advantage then it cannot be cheating. In fact I've just looked it up and to have cheated you must have been intending to get an advantage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 So we should set out to cheat but hope that it's missed? Things do get missed but processes are in place to rectify such glaring errors. That's why during my time in the sport well over 100 results have been amended following an investigating into rule breaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaColette Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Ludicrous. Zagar's tactical ride was completely in accordance with the rules while Newman's ride was not. He should either have been excluded for attempting to race without goggles, which is against the published rules which all licenced officials (including riders) legally agree to abide by through taking out that licence, or he should have returned to the pits to put a pair on and accepted the two minute time allowance exclusion. Instead he chose to cheat by racing without. But then, he rides for Poole, so let's quietly forget it all, eh or ridicule those who point out the injustice eh? "They're all just Poole haters". Tell you what, let's just burn the rule book and get Poole's management to make all the decisions.... I was sickened by what I saw in the abandoned Coventry v Poole league match but that's nothing top what I've seen now. No matter how good the racing was the title's been won by a blatant cheat, recorded clearly and in full on TV. It's either incompetence or corruption. Has the SCB got the integrity to act? Even Gavan Poole's biggest critic says it was the ref and not Poole. So can't blame people for saying you are anti Poole as you definitely seem to be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob VDS Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Ludicrous. Zagar's tactical ride was completely in accordance with the rules while Newman's ride was not. He should either have been excluded for attempting to race without goggles, which is against the published rules which all licenced officials (including riders) legally agree to abide by through taking out that licence, or he should have returned to the pits to put a pair on and accepted the two minute time allowance exclusion. Instead he chose to cheat by racing without. But then, he rides for Poole, so let's quietly forget it all, eh or ridicule those who point out the injustice eh? "They're all just Poole haters". Tell you what, let's just burn the rule book and get Poole's management to make all the decisions.... I was sickened by what I saw in the abandoned Coventry v Poole league match but that's nothing top what I've seen now. No matter how good the racing was the title's been won by a blatant cheat, recorded clearly and in full on TV. It's either incompetence or corruption. Has the SCB got the integrity to act? Wow. Hope you feel better after getting that rubbish off your chest. Just out of interest what action would you like the SCB to take? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz01 Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 I haven't yet found a sport where the rule book isn't broken and the ref,controlling body or judge misses nothing. Never going to happen. But we have a process in speedway where things can be amended. Speedway is very different from any other sport. If Belle Vue went through the correct channels which it looks like they have then results can be changed if a referee made a mistake and the SCB seems it necessary to do so. The rule that was broken wasn't an interpretation the rule is there in black and white. I'm pretty sure that if there's no perceived advantage then it cannot be cheating. In fact I've just looked it up and to have cheated you must have been intending to get an advantage. He did get an advantage as he would've been excluded and had to go off 15m 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob VDS Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 But we have a process in speedway where things can be amended. Speedway is very different from any other sport. If Belle Vue went through the correct channels which it looks like they have then results can be changed if a referee made a mistake and the SCB seems it necessary to do so. The rule that was broken wasn't an interpretation the rule is there in black and white. He did get an advantage as he would've been excluded and had to go off 15m I agree but the can only change a result where they can be sure what the result should have been. For example if the exclusion had led to poole having 1 rider then clearly a poole 5-1 wouldn't have been possible. However as all 4 riders would still have been in the race had the correct process been followed I don't see how they can predict the result as all scores were technically possible 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaColette Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 I agree but the can only change a result where they can be sure what the result should have been. For example if the exclusion had led to poole having 1 rider then clearly a poole 5-1 wouldn't have been possible. However as all 4 riders would still have been in the race had the correct process been followed I don't see how they can predict the result as all scores were technically possibleExactly! And that's where the problem lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Beevers Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 (edited) Are we back at school? Gavans reply was hardly insulting, although perhaps it being insinuated you are a Poole fan was too much for you. Problem is with you sir/madam/x is that I admit that I am jealous of the Poole Pirates success where your post screams out that you are in denial. And for the record, North,Kennett or your pet rottweiler riding. Poole beat Coventry regardless of the points or not. Now will you care to agree. Somehow I think you won't as you epitomize some of the delusional youth of today. Edited October 2, 2015 by Joe Beevers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 If a cheat doesn't change a result, is it ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob VDS Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 If a cheat doesn't change a result, is it ok? I guess you'd have to ask yourself in that case whether it was actually a cheat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Problem is with you sir/madam/x is that I admit that I am jealous of the Poole Pirates success where your post screams out that you are in denial. And for the record, North,Kennett or your pet rottweiler riding. Poole beat Coventry regardless of the points or not. Now will you care to agree. Somehow I think you won't as you opitimize some of the delusional youth of today. Poole would not necessarily have won ...... you can't say that at all ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aces51 Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 I wouldn't refer to it as a cheat. It was in clear breach of the rules and I doubt anyone would argue that if the referee had noticed it during or, immediately after the race, he would have disqualified Newman and deducted his points. I have seen it happen when a rider raced without a dirt deflector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nw42 Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Problem is with you sir/madam/x is that I admit that I am jealous of the Poole Pirates success where your post screams out that you are in denial. And for the record, North,Kennett or your pet rottweiler riding. Poole beat Coventry regardless of the points or not. Now will you care to agree. Somehow I think you won't as you opitimize some of the delusional youth of today. If he could do that he'd be on to a winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKYLANE Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 More hoped for déjà vu, in 1969, the year before we went on to dominate the BL and win three on the trot we were pipped for the title by Poole. Nothing dodgy back then though. I just want to confirm this as I'd not considered it before reading this thead. It is ok to cheat in sport if you don't get found out? It is ok to cheat in sport if there is no perceived advantage? We reaped the benefits with the Colts in 68 and 69 and winning the triple in the following years. But it all started with the Dent Oliver and his belief in training our own riders commencing in 1967 ... it just took a while to reap the benefits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 If a cheat doesn't change a result, is it ok? Speedway is odd. It's the only sport you can "cheat" or "break rules" and STILL gain. As we have all said, had Newman been excluded thats 2 less for Poole and 2 more for BV. But even if the SCB find he did break the rules, it's 2 less for Poole. So Poole still gain 2 points from "breaking the rules". How the hell is that fair? It basically says, "cheat, if we miss it and take points away later you have still gained". In any serious sport you'd have the points removed, all riders would have positions increased AND you'd be punished for cheating in some way - depending on the severity it'd be anything from a few race points deduced to a few match points deducted. Please note people, I'm talking generally. Not just this case here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob VDS Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 Speedway is odd. It's the only sport you can "cheat" or "break rules" and STILL gain. As we have all said, had Newman been excluded thats 2 less for Poole and 2 more for BV. But even if the SCB find he did break the rules, it's 2 less for Poole. So Poole still gain 2 points from "breaking the rules". How the hell is that fair? It basically says, "cheat, if we miss it and take points away later you have still gained". In any serious sport you'd have the points removed, all riders would have positions increased AND you'd be punished for cheating in some way - depending on the severity it'd be anything from a few race points deduced to a few match points deducted. Please note people, I'm talking generally. Not just this case here. The problem is that had the ref spotted it kyle would have gone off 15m and therefore still in with a shout of getting points. As I said earlier had any exclusion meant poole were down to 1 rider then clearly you can see that leaving the 5-1 in place would be unfair. With all 4 riders in the heat any result is technically possible so how can the SCB make a judgement on what the result would have been? I agree that BV will see that as unfair but the ref messed this up as did the SCB by not dealing with it before the 2nd leg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Stewart Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 If I was in the Belle Vue camp (and I would have preferred them to win) I would be embarrassed mumping about the goggles. It's not as if it gave him an advantage. They had the advantage of a TR at home but the truth is if they had all performed at their best, Belle Vue would have won. Poole's top five this year is not a vintage quintet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 (edited) Speedway is odd. It's the only sport you can "cheat" or "break rules" and STILL gain. As we have all said, had Newman been excluded thats 2 less for Poole and 2 more for BV. But even if the SCB find he did break the rules, it's 2 less for Poole. So Poole still gain 2 points from "breaking the rules". How the hell is that fair? It basically says, "cheat, if we miss it and take points away later you have still gained". In any serious sport you'd have the points removed, all riders would have positions increased AND you'd be punished for cheating in some way - depending on the severity it'd be anything from a few race points deduced to a few match points deducted. Please note people, I'm talking generally. Not just this case here. In football, a player 'dives' in the penalty area and gains a penalty from which his team scores the winning goal. If after post-match official protest and intense media coverage, the FA decide to take action, then the penalty against the player is usually a retrospective fine or booking BUT the score/result is not changed! Also if it is believed the referee should have seen the 'dive', then the ref can also be penalised by being suspended from the refs rota for a while. So lets not paint speedway as some sort of special case!! Edited October 2, 2015 by Skidder1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKYLANE Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 If I was in the Belle Vue camp (and I would have preferred them to win) I would be embarrassed mumping about the goggles. It's not as if it gave him an advantage. They had the advantage of a TR at home but the truth is if they had all performed at their best, Belle Vue would have won. Poole's top five this year is not a vintage quintet. I am sure that if the goggles incident had been the other way round then Poole would have also lodged an appeal , At the end of the day , the rule was broken and has it's consequences. I must admit I did not know that rule existed... If the appeal is upheld it will put Speedway in an embarrassing position of the new score will be 90 - 90 ..... so what do we do now ??????? If Poole had not conceded a 5- 1 in heat 15 then it would not have mattered anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shayman Posted October 2, 2015 Report Share Posted October 2, 2015 This sort of thing goes on in all sports. It's all part and parcel of it. My advice is that you stop watching all types of sport if you are so offended by this. The whole saga just adds to the drama. Get over it. Speedway is odd. It's the only sport you can "cheat" or "break rules" and STILL gain. As we have all said, had Newman been excluded thats 2 less for Poole and 2 more for BV. But even if the SCB find he did break the rules, it's 2 less for Poole. So Poole still gain 2 points from "breaking the rules". How the hell is that fair? It basically says, "cheat, if we miss it and take points away later you have still gained". In any serious sport you'd have the points removed, all riders would have positions increased AND you'd be punished for cheating in some way - depending on the severity it'd be anything from a few race points deduced to a few match points deducted. Please note people, I'm talking generally. Not just this case here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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