Humphrey Appleby Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Secondly, I do have some issue withbasing qualification for world champ strictly on some statistical measure based on other events - you could end up with the situation where a rider chose to skip his final club meetings to avoid risk of his ranking being lowered and missing a spot. My mad plan would be to have a European wide second half competition run after after national league matches - partly to add value to those meetings, partly to give wider access to the SGP qualification system, and partly to ensure a competitive qualification system that rewards the most consistent riders. You could run a knockout system of individual racing after each match involving some or all of the riders, with ranking points being scored towards an international rider ranking each time. To account for injuries, meetings being abandoned, riders competing in different numbers of leagues, and to reduce the chance of riders withdrawing to maintain their 'average', I'd simply take the best x (to be decided as appropriate) results each season, so riders effectively would not lose points by riding, but would have the opportunity to gain them. You'd probably also have to weigh the ranking points according to the standard of each league in order not to skew the rankings. The highest ranked riders at the end of the season would qualify for next season's SGP, although I'd keep open (say) three places for qualifiers coming through a 'GP Challenge' to give (in theory) riders not competing in one of the recognised leagues an opportunity to qualify. The GP Challenge could masquerade as the European Championship or some sort of other grandiose title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 I quite like that systrem Humph, though would add that the top "x" riders from the current season GP should also be guaranteed a pot. The issue though is that whereas now you have an intense battle for a top 8 spot, by the halfway mark you'd have half the field left with nothing to race for in the GPs. For that reason alone I can't see BSI going with your plan, though maybe it would work if you had say top 6 in the GPs, 2 from a "GP chalennge" giving maybe 5 spots from the inidvidual rankings (llaowing a couple fo spots to see due to injudries or make sure all major nations represented). the other potential issue is that by half way mark in the series you ptopose a number of riders would have no chance of making the top "x" places, and may therefore just let their team mates win, or be susceptible to being "bought off." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I've always hated seeding riders into the gp. Wasn't it Billy Hamill that started this nonsense back in 99? I remember Sam Ermolenko kicking up a stink about it, and you know how tightly knit the yanks are. It should be top 8 gp, top 7 challenge, no excuses. I just don't get this 'Jarek got injured so he deserves a place' talk. Unfortunately injuries are part and parcel of our sport and riders have missed world finals because of them. Sam and Jan O as examples. I don't know why they changed the qualifying system, maybe it was to finally get Andy Smith out the gp! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 and don't you think the 85 world final would have been better with carter in it, 86 with moran in it, 89/90 with pedersen in them etc? the other difference is that now an injury can ruin your chances for two seasons, not just one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Of course every world final/gp would be better with the top riders in it but that very rarely happens, 1996 maybe the one exception. I just don't think anyone should be gifted a place Riders should have to qualify. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutz Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Surely it could get to the point that the top 8 qualify automatically, 1 wild card per round leaves 7 positions available... 1 position should go to the U21 World Champion leaving 6 places... These 6 places should come from the Qualifier - However, I think the SGP Qualifier should be held after the SGP is completed and should contain those that were outside of the top 8 in the SGP series. Therefore the likes of AJ / MJJ / THJ etc. etc., would need to re-qualify through the SGP Qualifier. There should be no Wild card picks from BSI as it makes a mockery of the sport - best friends of friends, good sponsors linked to BSI etc. etc. The qualifiers for the SGP qualifier can be held accordingly throughout the year but at least you'll be there on merit through potentially the toughest meeting of the season... It may mean that it will be a 20 or 24 strong field, but when you're competing for 6 places, it'll be worth it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Surely it could get to the point that the top 8 qualify automatically, 1 wild card per round leaves 7 positions available... 1 position should go to the U21 World Champion leaving 6 places... These 6 places should come from the Qualifier - However, I think the SGP Qualifier should be held after the SGP is completed and should contain those that were outside of the top 8 in the SGP series. Therefore the likes of AJ / MJJ / THJ etc. etc., would need to re-qualify through the SGP Qualifier. There should be no Wild card picks from BSI as it makes a mockery of the sport - best friends of friends, good sponsors linked to BSI etc. etc. The qualifiers for the SGP qualifier can be held accordingly throughout the year but at least you'll be there on merit through potentially the toughest meeting of the season... It may mean that it will be a 20 or 24 strong field, but when you're competing for 6 places, it'll be worth it. Surely it could get to the point that the top 8 qualify automatically, 1 wild card per round leaves 7 positions available... 1 position should go to the U21 World Champion leaving 6 places... These 6 places should come from the Qualifier - However, I think the SGP Qualifier should be held after the SGP is completed and should contain those that were outside of the top 8 in the SGP series. Therefore the likes of AJ / MJJ / THJ etc. etc., would need to re-qualify through the SGP Qualifier. There should be no Wild card picks from BSI as it makes a mockery of the sport - best friends of friends, good sponsors linked to BSI etc. etc. The qualifiers for the SGP qualifier can be held accordingly throughout the year but at least you'll be there on merit through potentially the toughest meeting of the season... It may mean that it will be a 20 or 24 strong field, but when you're competing for 6 places, it'll be worth it. Thats the nearest to a reasonable solution IMO.Think there should be GP qualifiers throughout the season for Riders NOT ALREADY in GP and the Top 8 meet the bottom 8 from the GP.for the 8 places in next seasons GP. Will never happen though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Thats the nearest to a reasonable solution IMO.Think there should be GP qualifiers throughout the season for Riders NOT ALREADY in GP and the Top 8 meet the bottom 8 from the GP.for the 8 places in next seasons GP. Will never happen though. This was the system they used when the gp's first started, it was definitely better. They also gave a place to the U21 champion, but with the notable exception of Jason Crump, they were usually outclassed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) This was the system they used when the gp's first started, it was definitely better. They also gave a place to the U21 champion, but with the notable exception of Jason Crump, they were usually outclassed. Maybe they could hold the Final GP QUALIFIER over one week-end with 2 rounds to make it a fairer reflection on the result. Edited November 4, 2015 by Fromafar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Maybe they could hold the Final GP QUALIFIER over one week-end with 2 rounds to make it a fairer reflection on the result. Worth a try, certainly can't be worse than the system in place now. Never liked riders being 'given' places in the world championship, everyone should have to qualify no matter who they are. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fromafar Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Worth a try, certainly can't be worse than the system in place now. Never liked riders being 'given' places in the world championship, everyone should have to qualify no matter who they are. There are too many commercial reasons behind selections,at the end of the day if the top 16 riders on merit turn up for a GP it would still attract a bigger crowd to see them IMO .BSI are probably making more money out of Sponsership though in each country so feel obliged to make sure nationalities are represented which is not what the World Championship should be about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 There are too many commercial reasons behind selections,at the end of the day if the top 16 riders on merit turn up for a GP it would still attract a bigger crowd to see them IMO .BSI are probably making more money out of Sponsership though in each country so feel obliged to make sure nationalities are represented which is not what the World Championship should be about. That's right. I could kind of understand when Poland and Sweden held the world final, they used to be allocated a certain number of places, to put in who they liked. But now that it's a global event every rider (apart from possibly a local wildcard) should be in on merit. People say stuff like, "oh so and so deserves a place because this or that happened." The truth is the only riders deserving of a place are the 11 who qualified on the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navigator1900 Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Surely it could get to the point that the top 8 qualify automatically, 1 wild card per round leaves 7 positions available... 1 position should go to the U21 World Champion leaving 6 places... These 6 places should come from the Qualifier - However, I think the SGP Qualifier should be held after the SGP is completed and should contain those that were outside of the top 8 in the SGP series. Therefore the likes of AJ / MJJ / THJ etc. etc., would need to re-qualify through the SGP Qualifier. There should be no Wild card picks from BSI as it makes a mockery of the sport - best friends of friends, good sponsors linked to BSI etc. etc. The qualifiers for the SGP qualifier can be held accordingly throughout the year but at least you'll be there on merit through potentially the toughest meeting of the season... It may mean that it will be a 20 or 24 strong field, but when you're competing for 6 places, it'll be worth it. Pretty cool idea, would love to see such a meeting ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Surely it could get to the point that the top 8 qualify automatically, 1 wild card per round leaves 7 positions available... 1 position should go to the U21 World Champion leaving 6 places... These 6 places should come from the Qualifier - However, I think the SGP Qualifier should be held after the SGP is completed and should contain those that were outside of the top 8 in the SGP series. Therefore the likes of AJ / MJJ / THJ etc. etc., would need to re-qualify through the SGP Qualifier. There should be no Wild card picks from BSI as it makes a mockery of the sport - best friends of friends, good sponsors linked to BSI etc. etc. The qualifiers for the SGP qualifier can be held accordingly throughout the year but at least you'll be there on merit through potentially the toughest meeting of the season... It may mean that it will be a 20 or 24 strong field, but when you're competing for 6 places, it'll be worth it. Nice idea so it will never happen. The U21 champ would struggle. What about class riders who are injured like Hampel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Nice idea so it will never happen. The U21 champ would struggle. What about class riders who are injured like Hampel. u21 champ would struggle? look at the winners the last 8 years and tell me which of those would have been worse than riders who quslified through the gp chsllenge?agree re your hampel point though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Surely it could get to the point that the top 8 qualify automatically, 1 wild card per round leaves 7 positions available... 1 position should go to the U21 World Champion leaving 6 places... These 6 places should come from the Qualifier - However, I think the SGP Qualifier should be held after the SGP is completed and should contain those that were outside of the top 8 in the SGP series. Therefore the likes of AJ / MJJ / THJ etc. etc., would need to re-qualify through the SGP Qualifier. There should be no Wild card picks from BSI as it makes a mockery of the sport - best friends of friends, good sponsors linked to BSI etc. etc. The qualifiers for the SGP qualifier can be held accordingly throughout the year but at least you'll be there on merit through potentially the toughest meeting of the season... It may mean that it will be a 20 or 24 strong field, but when you're competing for 6 places, it'll be worth it. totally agree about no wildcards..bsi controlling places, by country of birth ofver talent cant be right nor fair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f-s-p Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 totally agree about no wildcards..bsi controlling places, by country of birth ofver talent cant be right nor fairFim sgp commission makes the choices. Think it might even be all three fim members ATM, used to be 2-1 fim over bsi. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 u21 champ would struggle? look at the winners the last 8 years and tell me which of those would have been worse than riders who quslified through the gp chsllenge? agree re your hampel point though On that basis if the coin toss in Wiener Neustadt had gone the other way we'd have had Tomas Suchanek in the 2006 Grand Prix!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwalker Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Fim sgp commission makes the choices. Think it might even be all three fim members ATM, used to be 2-1 fim over bsi. Quite possible, but that doesn't mean that BSI doesn't have any influence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 On that basis if the coin toss in Wiener Neustadt had gone the other way we'd have had Tomas Suchanek in the 2006 Grand Prix!!!tbf tgere have been some very mediocre u21 champs over tge years. but since emil in 07 we have had ward, magic, dudek, pawlicki and zmazlick, none of whom would have been out of place in gps the following year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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