King's Lynn 2016

[tellboy]

I was simply basing my opinions on the racing side of things.Where the PL is definately not a rip off compared to EL.

It's more expensive to run in the EL. Costs are higher, riders wages are higher and star riders costing more than PL riders so it makes sense that the EL is higher price to get in. Cost to run versus cost to attend is in more proportion than the PL.
Given that the PL charges £1-3 less for significantly lower costs to run makes them the league that rips off the fans the most.

You are confusing your view on standard of racing (if you believe the racing in the PL Is the same standard ) with the cost to run.

So the PL Is the bigger rip off.

surely all costs are the same bar the riders wages?

[stevebrum]

I was simply basing my opinions on the racing side of things.Where the PL is definately not a rip off compared to EL.

 

surely all costs are the same bar the riders wages?

Costs are way higher in the EL. So as the PL charges only a few pounds less than the EL they are likely to be making much more money so the EL is the least cost effective league.

 

The PL therefore is the rip off league compared to the EL/NL.

 

The standard of racing has nothing to do with which league is the most cost productive/ rip off.

 

Which league has better racing is subjective anyway but has no bearing on which league is the rip off.

Edited August 20, 2016 by stevebrum

[tellboy]

Costs are way higher in the EL. So as the PL charges only a few pounds less than the EL they are likely to be making much more money so the EL is the least cost effective league.

 

The PL therefore is the rip off league compared to the EL/NL.

 

The standard of racing has nothing to do with which league is the most cost productive/ rip off.

 

Which league has better racing is subjective anyway but has no bearing on which league is the rip off.

I would think stadium rents pretty similar,electric same,cost of food to buy same,most workers are volunteers afaik.All i can think in reality is the wages.

You are known for thinking nothing of the PL and are so blinkered in favour of the EL.Whereas i have seen both sides and feel the PL is better value for our money(supporters).I have seen nothing in the EL to suggest otherwise.Now if we were to get back to the eighties then i would feel different.That was value for money in the top league,plus plenty of characters in the sport and lots of banter.

Edited August 20, 2016 by tellboy

[Long Eye]

I would think stadium rents pretty similar,electric same,cost of food to buy same,most workers are volunteers afaik.All i can think in reality is the wages.

You are known for thinking nothing of the PL and are so blinkered in favour of the EL.Whereas i have seen both sides and feel the PL is better value for our money(supporters).I have seen nothing in the EL to suggest otherwise.Now if we were to get back to the eighties then i would feel different.That was value for money in the top league,plus plenty of characters in the sport and lots of banter.

The costs of registering the club in the EL is higher than for the PL or NL. There is also a £50000 bond to lodge with the BSPA for EL clubs. If I remember correctly insurance for each heat is also higher in the EL than the PL.

[stevebrum]

I would think stadium rents pretty similar,electric same,cost of food to buy same,most workers are volunteers afaik.All i can think in reality is the wages.

You are known for thinking nothing of the PL and are so blinkered in favour of the EL.Whereas i have seen both sides and feel the PL is better value for our money(supporters).I have seen nothing in the EL to suggest otherwise.Now if we were to get back to the eighties then i would feel different.That was value for money in the top league,plus plenty of characters in the sport and lots of banter.

Costs are known to be higher in the EL, yet you dispute that.

I'm not known for thinking nothing of the PL at, that is in your own opinion.

I make no excuse for being an EL snob. However I watch racing at ALL levels - EL,PL, NL, Development, Amateur. Do you so you have an equally rounded opinion also?

I argue with the PL snobs who say their league is better. It isn't. It's what ever you prefer.

I have seen superb action and meetings in all leagues and equally plenty of shockers.

I seem to see more average PL meetings so I can only base my opinion on what I see.

I'm a fan of Speedway so your claim that I'm 'blinkered' is wide of the mark if you actually read widely.

 

You have already said you are basing your opinion on which racing is better which wasn't the point I was discussing so I suggest we are wasting each others time trying to debate the issue any further.

 

Otherwise do not make up lies to suit your argument.

The costs of registering the club in the EL is higher than for the PL or NL. There is also a £50000 bond to lodge with the BSPA for EL clubs. If I remember correctly insurance for each heat is also higher in the EL than the PL.

Have you read this tellboy?

[tellboy]

Costs are known to be higher in the EL, yet you dispute that.

I'm not known for thinking nothing of the PL at, that is in your own opinion.

I make no excuse for being an EL snob. However I watch racing at ALL levels - EL,PL, NL, Development, Amateur. Do you so you have an equally rounded opinion also?

I argue with the PL snobs who say their league is better. It isn't. It's what ever you prefer.

I have seen superb action and meetings in all leagues and equally plenty of shockers.

I seem to see more average PL meetings so I can only base my opinion on what I see.

I'm a fan of Speedway so your claim that I'm 'blinkered' is wide of the mark if you actually read widely.

 

You have already said you are basing your opinion on which racing is better which wasn't the point I was discussing so I suggest we are wasting each others time trying to debate the issue any further.

 

Otherwise do not make up lies to suit your argument.

 

Have you read this tellboy?

Lets not forget what the EL clubs have had from Sky.A £50,000 bond sounds more drastic than it seems,they may pay only about 1% of that.Why would the insurance be any dearer for each race.I thought as the riders in the PL are apparently inferior the insurance would be dearer.

Edited August 20, 2016 by tellboy

[Shale Searcher]

Lets not forget what the EL clubs have had from Sky.A £50,000 bond sounds more drastic than it seems,they may pay only about 1% of that.Why would the insurance be any dearer for each race.I thought as the riders in the PL are apparently inferior the insurance would be dearer.

Anyway you can have the last word as you normally do,goodnight.

 

A 2L Jaguar is more expensive to insure than a 1L Fiat Panda

[tellboy]

A 2L Jaguar is more expensive to insure than a 1L Fiat Panda

Thought all bikes were 500cc.Yes and young more inexperienced drivers have to pay through the nose.

[stevebrum]

Lets not forget what the EL clubs have had from Sky.A £50,000 bond sounds more drastic than it seems,they may pay only about 1% of that.Why would the insurance be any dearer for each race.I thought as the riders in the PL are apparently inferior the insurance would be dearer.

I think it's covered now.

Who said the riders in the PL are inferior.

Do not attempt to put words in my mouth yet again.

 

Moving along.

[Whisperer]

A 2L Jaguar is more expensive to insure than a 1L Fiat Panda

Thank you for that helpful and clear explanation on how Speedway is financed.

 

It's a bit like your previous comment referring to the cost of rider wages;

 

Try taking VAT out of your revenue streams

Think about bonus points

Think about Track licence and SCB fees for Officials

Think about medical and referees costs for each meeting

Think about the cost of shale and repairs to plant and equipment

Think about the cost of depreciating an air fence and other business assets (Not riders)

Think about the agreed contractual travel expenses

Think about budgeting for 95 - 100 points a meeting to cover bonus points

Think about budgeting for the cost of a rain off before anybody leaves home

Think about budgeting for the cost of at least two rain offs that don't get to heat ten

Think about IT and communication costs

Think about publicity, promotional and print costs

Think about meeting insurance costs (public and "employee" liability)

Think about the cost of aquiring and running at least one vehicle for the business owner

What about signing on fees, vans, mechanics, accommodation, flights where applicable etc, etc,etc

Stadium rent usually includes power and water but sometimes stewards are extra

 

Once all this has had some constructive thought the conclusion you will see is that the business model is f****d with a capital F and just how much the sport has to rely on: goodwill, sponsorship, donations, supporters club events, share of the BSPA shared events, TV staging fees, advertising revenue, track shop concession fee, programme sales where charged for, car parking in owned stadiums, refreshments in owned stadiums.

 

Now this just sets out a flavour of how it is, it truly galls me that well meaning terrace promoters use language like "rip off" (Not you SS) and that the people running the sport haven't got a clue when in reality they are drowning in a sea of rising costs and falling revenue. Their focus is understandably on survival and that does mean short term solutions, it's not right at all and I believe that some of the decisions taken were never intended to be permanent but there really does need to be a break in the vicious circle that the sport is in to give these guys the opportunity to improve. For me it begins with costs, unless they are firmly under control then the revenue streams cannot be nudged forward and it is an unfortunate fact that the greatest expense in the sport is rider costs that have almost doubled in 10 years yet you won't find many riders who's points money has doubled - it's the total costs that have.

 

I'm trying not to make this a rant but maybe provide some helpful information to fill in some of the gaps to illustrate how a club promoter has to face the challenge of propping his business up on a daily basis, and NO, Sugar Daddy Promoters are not the answer, it is undoubtedly some of theses promotions that have chucked stupid money at riders in the first place that have caused competitive promotions costs to rocket.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Whisperer

[Haza]

Thank you for that helpful and clear explanation on how Speedway is financed.

 

It's a bit like your previous comment referring to the cost of rider wages;

 

Try taking VAT out of your revenue streams

Think about bonus points

Think about Track licence and SCB fees for Officials

Think about medical and referees costs for each meeting

Think about the cost of shale and repairs to plant and equipment

Think about the cost of depreciating an air fence and other business assets (Not riders)

Think about the agreed contractual travel expenses

Think about budgeting for 95 - 100 points a meeting to cover bonus points

Think about budgeting for the cost of a rain off before anybody leaves home

Think about budgeting for the cost of at least two rain offs that don't get to heat ten

Think about IT and communication costs

Think about publicity, promotional and print costs

Think about meeting insurance costs (public and "employee" liability)

Think about the cost of aquiring and running at least one vehicle for the business owner

What about signing on fees, vans, mechanics, accommodation, flights where applicable etc, etc,etc

Stadium rent usually includes power and water but sometimes stewards are extra

 

Once all this has had some constructive thought the conclusion you will see is that the business model is f****d with a capital F and just how much the sport has to rely on: goodwill, sponsorship, donations, supporters club events, share of the BSPA shared events, TV staging fees, advertising revenue, track shop concession fee, programme sales where charged for, car parking in owned stadiums, refreshments in owned stadiums.

 

Now this just sets out a flavour of how it is, it truly galls me that well meaning terrace promoters use language like "rip off" (Not you SS) and that the people running the sport haven't got a clue when in reality they are drowning in a sea of rising costs and falling revenue. Their focus is understandably on survival and that does mean short term solutions, it's not right at all and I believe that some of the decisions taken were never intended to be permanent but there really does need to be a break in the vicious circle that the sport is in to give these guys the opportunity to improve. For me it begins with costs, unless they are firmly under control then the revenue streams cannot be nudged forward and it is an unfortunate fact that the greatest expense in the sport is rider costs that have almost doubled in 10 years yet you won't find many riders who's points money has doubled - it's the total costs that have.

 

I'm trying not to make this a rant but maybe provide some helpful information to fill in some of the gaps to illustrate how a club promoter has to face the challenge of propping his business up on a daily basis, and NO, Sugar Daddy Promoters are not the answer, it is undoubtedly some of theses promotions that have chucked stupid money at riders in the first place that have caused competitive promotions costs to rocket.

one that doesn't apply for Kings Lynn is IT and communication cost cus both are none existent Edited August 21, 2016 by Haza

[g13webb]

Reading 'Whisperer' post it become more apparrent the sport has become too expensive to produce and promote. One of my biggest gripes has always been the tuning costs of the bikes. There, we have experts in their field who charge a earth for their services, but put nothing back into the sport. Promotor have to pay these high costs the riders are demanding so they can pay the tuning bills......Technology is all very well but the price is too high. Todays bikes dictate ones success in the sport. Slow bikes = poor results. Where once the rider was the skilful one, now its more to do on machinery.

 

The sport needs to take control of its financial outlay. The bikes today are too expensive, too fast, and too difficult to ride. Moving backward could be a forward step. in bringing back the 4 valve uprights bikes, that was once the sought after bike that ruled the sport. This would bring the riders cost down and make the races more equal and entertaining..... Putting the emphasis on the rider rather than the bike.......

 

We can all see that the sport is in an unsustainable situation. Decisions need to be made now before it's too late. We've had our heads in the clouds for too long...

[Shale Searcher]

Thank you for that helpful and clear explanation on how Speedway is financed.

 

It's a bit like your previous comment referring to the cost of rider wages;

 

Try taking VAT out of your revenue streams

Think about bonus points

Think about Track licence and SCB fees for Officials

Think about medical and referees costs for each meeting

Think about the cost of shale and repairs to plant and equipment

Think about the cost of depreciating an air fence and other business assets (Not riders)

Think about the agreed contractual travel expenses

Think about budgeting for 95 - 100 points a meeting to cover bonus points

Think about budgeting for the cost of a rain off before anybody leaves home

Think about budgeting for the cost of at least two rain offs that don't get to heat ten

Think about IT and communication costs

Think about publicity, promotional and print costs

Think about meeting insurance costs (public and "employee" liability)

Think about the cost of aquiring and running at least one vehicle for the business owner

What about signing on fees, vans, mechanics, accommodation, flights where applicable etc, etc,etc

Stadium rent usually includes power and water but sometimes stewards are extra

 

Once all this has had some constructive thought the conclusion you will see is that the business model is f****d with a capital F and just how much the sport has to rely on: goodwill, sponsorship, donations, supporters club events, share of the BSPA shared events, TV staging fees, advertising revenue, track shop concession fee, programme sales where charged for, car parking in owned stadiums, refreshments in owned stadiums.

 

Now this just sets out a flavour of how it is, it truly galls me that well meaning terrace promoters use language like "rip off" (Not you SS) and that the people running the sport haven't got a clue when in reality they are drowning in a sea of rising costs and falling revenue. Their focus is understandably on survival and that does mean short term solutions, it's not right at all and I believe that some of the decisions taken were never intended to be permanent but there really does need to be a break in the vicious circle that the sport is in to give these guys the opportunity to improve. For me it begins with costs, unless they are firmly under control then the revenue streams cannot be nudged forward and it is an unfortunate fact that the greatest expense in the sport is rider costs that have almost doubled in 10 years yet you won't find many riders who's points money has doubled - it's the total costs that have.

 

I'm trying not to make this a rant but maybe provide some helpful information to fill in some of the gaps to illustrate how a club promoter has to face the challenge of propping his business up on a daily basis, and NO, Sugar Daddy Promoters are not the answer, it is undoubtedly some of theses promotions that have chucked stupid money at riders in the first place that have caused competitive promotions costs to rocket.

Yes, whisperer, I know, I was just trying to visualise race insurance and possibly why EL is more expensive than PL....

 

PL rider is Panda

EL rider is Jaguar

Edited August 21, 2016 by Shale Searcher

[stevehone]

Reading 'Whisperer' post it become more apparrent the sport has become too expensive to produce and promote. One of my biggest gripes has always been the tuning costs of the bikes. There, we have experts in their field who charge a earth for their services, but put nothing back into the sport. Promotor have to pay these high costs the riders are demanding so they can pay the tuning bills......Technology is all very well but the price is too high. Todays bikes dictate ones success in the sport. Slow bikes = poor results. Where once the rider was the skilful one, now its more to do on machinery.

 

The sport needs to take control of its financial outlay. The bikes today are too expensive, too fast, and too difficult to ride. Moving backward could be a forward step. in bringing back the 4 valve uprights bikes, that was once the sought after bike that ruled the sport. This would bring the riders cost down and make the races more equal and entertaining..... Putting the emphasis on the rider rather than the bike.......

 

We can all see that the sport is in an unsustainable situation. Decisions need to be made now before it's too late. We've had our heads in the clouds for too long...

 

so other than the tuning issue with the riders, is there anything else that 'Whisperer' mentioned that you think could be changed?

[Sings4Speedway]

I fully understand the point of reducing tuning costs, engine changes etc but i think its a backward action. Surely the simplest answer is pay the riders less? Even if EL riders average £200 per point is that much required? What about a cut to £150 for example? If a rider has less disposable income they have 2 options, either locate more outside sponsorship off their own back or most likely use cheaper tuners, less expensive parts etc.

There will of course be some fall out with riders stating "im not riding for less than £XXX" but there will be plenty of riders who will. There will also be plenty of the initially opposed riders picking up the phone and asking for places in January when they haven't been signed anywhere.

I reckon most fans would rather see a rider who wants to ride for a club whatever the pay than a rider who rides for whatever club because of what they pay?

[Steve0]

I fully understand the point of reducing tuning costs, engine changes etc but i think its a backward action. Surely the simplest answer is pay the riders less? Even if EL riders average £200 per point is that much required? What about a cut to £150 for example? If a rider has less disposable income they have 2 options, either locate more outside sponsorship off their own back or most likely use cheaper tuners, less expensive parts etc.

There will of course be some fall out with riders stating "im not riding for less than £XXX" but there will be plenty of riders who will. There will also be plenty of the initially opposed riders picking up the phone and asking for places in January when they haven't been signed anywhere.

I reckon most fans would rather see a rider who wants to ride for a club whatever the pay than a rider who rides for whatever club because of what they pay?

 

A rather simplistic view - would you accept a 25% pay cut??

[tellboy]

 

A rather simplistic view - would you accept a 25% pay cut??

Simple answer would be no for many people.

[g13webb]

 

so other than the tuning issue with the riders, is there anything else that 'Whisperer' mentioned that you think could be changed?

 

Far from it. But in 'Whisperer' post outlining the costs, he mentioned the fact that RIDER cost have doubled in the last 10 years.

When talking with a couple of top riders they stated a Brand new standard engine would never be quick enough to be competitive. It needed tuning to attain the performance they all crave for... And that don't come cheap.... There words , not mind.....

 

Point 1: I fully understand the point of reducing tuning costs, engine changes etc but i think its a backward action. Surely the simplest answer is pay the riders less? Even if EL riders average £200 per point is that much required? What about a cut to £150 for example? If a rider has less disposable income they have 2 options, either locate more outside sponsorship off their own back or most likely use cheaper tuners, less expensive parts etc.

 

Point 2: There will of course be some fall out with riders stating "im not riding for less than £XXX" but there will be plenty of riders who will. There will also be plenty of the initially opposed riders picking up the phone and asking for places in January when they haven't been signed anywhere.

I reckon most fans would rather see a rider who wants to ride for a club whatever the pay than a rider who rides for whatever club because of what they pay?

 

Point 1: The problem with tuners is that they make the bikes uneven in performance and races become processional. The sport wants equality in riders and machinery. Only then will we get back to having closely contested matches. Having a super speed machine may a be good for the rider but it does nothing to the fans who want close racing.....

 

Point 2: While we have a shortest of quality riders they will always have the upper hand. Unless all the promoters stick together on a pay structure, the problem wont go away. it would only need one to say 'OK' and the whole idea of lowering Riders pay would be lost.....

[Pinny]

A shame what a mess Lynn seems to of turned into.

 

In their pl days id say it was the best club in league, majorly successful, professionally ran. Now it seems nobody at the club gives a toss.

 

A new co promoter with fresh ideas is needed and i mean, what example does it set when the bspa chairman doesnt give a toss about his club? Shameful and embarrassing.

[lynnboy]

Bring back Jonathan Chapman to run the speedway as he could sort the mess out then let his dad run the BSPA now if only that could happen but I think we have more chance of me running the show lol