Wolverhampton 2016

[Bees_Man]

Time to go and find something else to do now then. Not paying £20 on that

Edited October 12, 2015 by Bees_Man

[stevebrum]

Bit of a mish mash of a field tonight.

Andersson was impressive and not at all over-awed by the track. Made a very tidy and committed pass.

Palovaara looked useful too.

Good to see Freddie looking more the Monmore legend we have missed all season long and Wells was definetly deserved runner up.

Karger struggled big time.

it looks like the Elite League is about to be buried.

More like the PL is you mean if those rumours are true.

Not that I believe it one bit.

[ColinMills]

of course kk wants to ride here....NOW...

[MattK]

It looks like being a very different set

Rumours go around and possibly four or five of tonight's line up could be the basis of the team next season that could point to one big league with a limit around 42.50 set up from Premier league averages.

 

But that is just a rumour that appears to have some sense to it when you consider how some tracks are struggling and top class riders are leaving the shores to race abroad.

One big league based at a Premier League standard makes the most sense for a long term sustainable solution. The problem is, how do you get consensus from so many promoters with different ambitions and budgets?

 

Something like this should have been planned out for a year or more and requires input from clubs, riders, fans and even landlords. It's not something you can cobble together over a weekend.

[SteveEvans]

One big league based at a Premier League standard makes the most sense for a long term sustainable solution. The problem is, how do you get consensus from so many promoters with different ambitions and budgets?

 

Something like this should have been planned out for a year or more and requires input from clubs, riders, fans and even landlords. It's not something you can cobble together over a weekend.

Very good post.

 

The sport in the UK lacks long term planning.

 

The AGM is at the end of a season when you have struggling business owners not in a good frame of mind fixated on economizing. Yes, any business needs to keep its overhead in check but you also need to find ways to grow the business too.

 

An AGM should be making decisions for 2017 with 2016 format already known months ago.

 

What other sport continuously changes its rules and structure annually? The fans are there for what stays the same (four riders going at it for 4 laps), not for the green helmet, double points, new race format, fast track reserves or heat 10 rain offs and all the other compulsive changes that have never grown the sport one inch.

I would agree with most of that. I think blaming the current race format is over-egging the pudding but it's correct to say that good form in one country doesn't always translate to good form in another country.

 

Take for example Peter Karlsson at Lakeside in 2014, the same period when Tai was supposedly not bothering at Wolves.. Admittedly PK is not the rider he once was but to the casual observer it would appear he wasn't bothering at Lakeside and was eventually sacked . The truth was he tried everything with his engines, various set ups , various engines , but the plain fact was that what made him outstanding at Lakeside in 2013 wasn't working in 2014 and it wasn't all due to advancing years, and it wasn't due to lack of effort.

 

The other thing that people overlook, or at least refuse to acknowledge is that Speedwáy at the top level is very mentally demanding. You can't just jump,on a bike, flick a mental switch and perform at your best.As Bwitcher says, riders are different.Some such as Hans Andersen have always had a massive appetite for racing and are able to cope with around 100 or more meetings a year over a whole career and still maintain pretty decent form. Others have told me that once they go above about 55-60 meetings in a season their form drops off.

 

People can speculate on all these claims about Tai not bothering or not having his best bikes over here but I suspect the most likely explanation is the sheer workload of 3 leagues plus the GP's plus the SWC.

 

Regarding the race format, an EL heatleader a while ago told me, "I really dislike the format, we are always up against 1,3 or 5. When you have a bad night and only score 2 or 3 points, it destroys your confidence and makes you feel bad for your team mate and fans. Once you get in a rut, its hard to get out of it until you become a 2nd string and suddenly have easier than PL heats. Given the top guys meet each other more often one of the 6 heatleaders if not more is likely to have a very low score. It is done to save money as we are still paid the same amount per point but as the heatleaders take so many points off each other now we are all making less."

 

It is a factor, it magnifies bad form and traps you in bad form. These guys are only human afterall...

Edited October 13, 2015 by SteveEvans

[foamfence]

Two GTRs in the first three!

[FAST GATER]

Very good post.

 

The sport in the UK lacks long term planning.

 

The AGM is at the end of a season when you have struggling business owners not in a good frame of mind fixated on economizing. Yes, any business needs to keep its overhead in check but you also need to find ways to grow the business too.

 

An AGM should be making decisions for 2017 with 2016 format already known months ago.

 

What other sport continuously changes its rules and structure annually? The fans are there for what stays the same (four riders going at it for 4 laps), not for the green helmet, double points, new race format, fast track reserves or heat 10 rain offs and all the other compulsive changes that have never grown the sport one inch.

 

Regarding the race format, an EL heatleader a while ago told me, "I really dislike the format, we are always up against 1,3 or 5. When you have a bad night and only score 2 or 3 points, it destroys your confidence and makes you feel bad for your team mate and fans. Once you get in a rut, its hard to get out of it until you become a 2nd string and suddenly have easier than PL heats. Given the top guys meet each other more often one of the 6 heatleaders if not more is likely to have a very low score. It is done to save money as we are still paid the same amount per point but as the heatleaders take so many points off each other now we are all making less."

 

It is a factor, it magnifies bad form and traps you in bad form. These guys are only human afterall...

Excellent post have never liked this format purely about the money saving nothing else imagine coming up against Mauger, Briggs or Olsen 3 plus times a night without chance of having a heat to get things right sheer madness borne out by good riders being made to look bad this season .

[SCB]

Few things. Other sport that change rules/formats? F1 and touring cars seem to change rules all the time!

 

How do you have a league that allows Poole to compete with Berwick? Handicapping! If Poole want to start 5 points ahead of Berwick for team building then they have a 10 point handicap. Allow a PL level points limit of 40 to 50, if a 40 point team rides against a 50 point team then they have a 20 point handicap. That way you come to sign your 7th riders, your team comes to 39 already, you can sign any rider from 3 to 10 - suddenly that 3 pointer who can average 5 is looking a slightly better bet than that 10 pointer who'll average 10 because you have a handicap of 14 lower. BUT build a higher team and you're covering heat 15 and will have a strong reserve. you'd have to play out some simulations to find the right level of handicapping but I'm sure it could work.

[E I Addio]

Very good post.

 

The sport in the UK lacks long term planning.

 

The AGM is at the end of a season when you have struggling business owners not in a good frame of mind fixated on economizing. Yes, any business needs to keep its overhead in check but you also need to find ways to grow the business too.

 

An AGM should be making decisions for 2017 with 2016 format already known months ago.

 

What other sport continuously changes its rules and structure annually? The fans are there for what stays the same (four riders going at it for 4 laps), not for the green helmet, double points, new race format, fast track reserves or heat 10 rain offs and all the other compulsive changes that have never grown the sport one inch.

 

 

Regarding the race format, an EL heatleader a while ago told me, "I really dislike the format, we are always up against 1,3 or 5. When you have a bad night and only score 2 or 3 points, it destroys your confidence and makes you feel bad for your team mate and fans. Once you get in a rut, its hard to get out of it until you become a 2nd string and suddenly have easier than PL heats. Given the top guys meet each other more often one of the 6 heatleaders if not more is likely to have a very low score. It is done to save money as we are still paid the same amount per point but as the heatleaders take so many points off each other now we are all making less."

 

It is a factor, it magnifies bad form and traps you in bad form. These guys are only human afterall...

The new heat format has its shortcomings, not least from the fans point of view seeing the same riders against each other three or four times in a meeting. The point I was making though was that I don't think the heat format can be blamed entirely for Tai's lack of form in 2014 if he was scoring well in the strong continental leagues.

 

It's all very well for fans to sit back and pontificate on the reasons for a riders bad form but half the time the riders themselves don't know why things are not working out. Riders don't turn up at a meeting with the intention of not earning money, and with Peter Johns behind him I very much doubt that Tai's engines were rubbish. Personally I would take a lot of persuading that Tai's lack of form was due to anything other than workload and injuries.

[orion]

I would take a lot of persuading that Tai's lack of form was due to anything other than workload and injuries.

Why would you need a lot of persuading ..the facts were there all to see he was only poor and slow in the uk ...did his injuries only effect in the uk ? did his work load only effect him in the uk ....it was quite clear that the uk and Wolves were his lowest priority ...not sure why people are trying to dress it up otherwise

Edited October 13, 2015 by orion

[stevebrum]

Why would you need a lot of persuading ..the facts were there all to see he was only poor and slow in the uk ...did his injuries only effect in the uk ? did his work load only effect him in the uk ....it was quite clear that the uk and Wolves were his lowest priority ...not sure why people are trying to dress it up otherwise

Exactly.

We were his lowest priority and on sub standard equipment too. Those are the facts and no need to dress it any other way.

It's amazing how suddenly he is linked with coming back to the EL with Poole who can apparently pay him more.

It would take a huge shift in fixtures and same day racing to tempt Tai AND the other top boys over they have all made that clear!

Fingers crossed for a ground breaking AGM that adressess these issues. However I'm expecting more tinkering and more dumbing down.

[E I Addio]

Why would you need a lot of persuading ..the facts were there all to see he was only poor and slow in the uk ...did his injuries only effect in the uk ? did his work load only effect him in the uk ....it was quite clear that the uk and Wolves were his lowest priority ...not sure why people are trying to dress it up otherwise

 

 

they are fair points you make, but I don't think it proves that it was necessarily his engines. As I said before Peter karlsson was getting worse and worse at Lakeside at the same time tai was doing badly at Wolves, and PK was eventually sacked but he was certainly trying everything with his engines, even trying different engines but it didn't do any good, so who is to say it wasn't the same with Tai.

 

I don't think you can necessarily conclude that he had a bad attitude. at least not deliberately so. I have spoken to a couple of riders who said it is very difficult to ride in 3 leagues and to give your best ever time, something has to give. some riders can do it but some cant..

 

I am not defending Tai , simply saying that we cant always make assumptions when there are so many possible factors involved.

Exactly.

We were his lowest priority and on sub standard equipment too. Those are the facts and no need to dress it any other way.

 

once again, where is your evidence that his engines were substandard , apart from your assumption ? Has he said so ?

 

if they were substandard , what was different about his UK engines compared to his continental engines ? How do you know they were not the engines from the previous year when he was doing well ? after all Peter Johns said in SS a couple of years ago that Holder had been using the same engines over here for three or four years, so it could well be the same for Tai... Again, for comparison look at the trouble PK had with his engines at Lakeside, and he still lost his job.

Edited October 13, 2015 by E I Addio

[orion]

 

 

they are fair points you make, but I don't think it proves that it was necessarily his engines. As I said before Peter karlsson was getting worse and worse at Lakeside at the same time tai was doing badly at Wolves, and PK was eventually sacked but he was certainly trying everything with his engines, even trying different engines but it didn't do any good, so who is to say it wasn't the same with Tai.

 

I don't think you can necessarily conclude that he had a bad attitude. at least not deliberately so. I have spoken to a couple of riders who said it is very difficult to ride in 3 leagues and to give your best ever time, something has to give. some riders can do it but some cant..

 

I am not defending Tai , simply saying that we cant always make assumptions when there are so many possible factors involved.

Because pk is his mid 40's and was the way down his form this year has shown that ..plus he was not World Champion and beating the words top riders on Sunday and Tuesday while on the Monday getting beat by second strings etc on his own track ....PK is a poor example to compare Tai to .

 

 

they are fair points you make, but I don't think it proves that it was necessarily his engines. As I said before Peter karlsson was getting worse and worse at Lakeside at the same time tai was doing badly at Wolves, and PK was eventually sacked but he was certainly trying everything with his engines, even trying different engines but it didn't do any good, so who is to say it wasn't the same with Tai.

 

I don't think you can necessarily conclude that he had a bad attitude. at least not deliberately so. I have spoken to a couple of riders who said it is very difficult to ride in 3 leagues and to give your best ever time, something has to give. some riders can do it but some cant..

 

I am not defending Tai , simply saying that we cant always make assumptions when there are so many possible factors involved.

once again, where is your evidence that his engines were substandard , apart from your assumption ? Has he said so ?

 

if they were substandard , what was different about his UK engines compared to his continental engines ? How do you know they were not the engines from the previous year when he was doing well ? after all Peter Johns said in SS a couple of years ago that Holder had been using the same engines over here for three or four years, so it could well be the same for Tai... Again, for comparison look at the trouble PK had with his engines at Lakeside, and he still lost his job.

By watching how slow he was ...Do you think he was using the same bikes for the uk as he using in Sweden ,Poland and gp's ? you don't start getting beat by the people and droping his average like he did unless there is something clearly wrong ...I watched him at Swindon going backwards after watching him a gp on some of the quickest bikes I have seen ...if there had been a gp next week at Swindon what bikes do you think he would have used ? Tai choose to carry on using his sub standard bikes in the uk that was clear for all to see .

Edited October 13, 2015 by orion

[E I Addio]

Because pk is his mid 40's and was the way down his form this year has shown that ..plus he was not World Champion and beating the words top riders on Sunday and Tuesday while on the Monday getting beat by second strings etc on his own track ....PK is a poor example to compare Tai to .

 

 

PK is not the best example , but he is the most recent. He was on the way down as I had conceded before but he was a lot worse in 2014 than in 2015, and PK was actually getting beaten by second strings on his own track at times. In the same period Dave watt was having big trouble sorting his engines out in Poland. . It happens at times.

[orion]

 

 

PK is not the best example , but he is the most recent. He was on the way down as I had conceded before but he was a lot worse in 2014 than in 2015, and PK was actually getting beaten by second strings on his own track at times. In the same period Dave watt was having big trouble sorting his engines out in Poland. . It happens at times.

So was he beating the top riders in Poland and Sweden at the same time why getting beat by second strings on his own track ? I don't think he was so as said it's not like Tai at all .

[BWitcher]

So was he beating the top riders in Poland and Sweden at the same time why getting beat by second strings on his own track ? I don't think he was so as said it's not like Tai at all .

 

Tai was getting beat by second strings for a spell in Sweden this year, resulted in him getting rid of his mechanic there.

 

Again, it doesn't make the tiniest bit of difference what you are doing in another country, on different tracks, different equipment, with different back up teams.

 

Andreas Jonsson this year is 9th in Swedish Averages, averaging nearly 9.. in Poland he's averaging 5.5 and way down the list.

 

The issue with Tai in 2014 at Wolves was he simply wasn't gating, at all. Most of his points were earned the hard way.. now if he wasn't trying and didn't want to risk getting injured, that isn't the way to go about it. Far easier and safer to just make the gate and go. He had very heavy crashes twice for Wolves, once at Leicester at the start of the year, later on against Eastbourne.... hardly the actions of someone who is just taking it easy.

 

What happens, as E I has alluded too is, you have a few bad races, in the new format there are hardly any 'easy pickings' races, so those bad races can pile up. You then start to make changes to your setup that perhaps may not even be needed.. they don't work.. you change more and before you know it you can be in a far worse situation than you were to start with. That can be compounded if you haven't got the best of teams working with you.

 

Even Emil Sayfutdinov is 2pts lower in Poland this year than in Sweden.. Top of the averages with ease in Sweden, only 12th in Poland. Was he not trying in Poland then??

[FAST GATER]

IMO there is no getting away from the fact in this day and age the engine is everything whether you are a world champ with EVERYTHING at your disposal or a exceptional veteran with a lifetime of knowledge if the bikes not right then the heads not right .I watched Tai several times during that season and he looked like was trying but just had no faith in his machinery ,in PK's case he was trying his best to ride out of the "rut" and don't believe he is as bad as some make out and did up his average on last season .It is not a fair comparison I agree because PK has not got the access to the machinery Tai has( except for Greg who else has) never mind how old he is .

Edited October 13, 2015 by FAST GATER

[E I Addio]

So was he beating the top riders in Poland and Sweden at the same time why getting beat by second strings on his own track ? I don't think he was so as said it's not like Tai at all .

He was doing a reasonable job against top riders in Sweden , and holding his own against pretty good riders in Polands Div 1 . By pretty good I mean riders like Bomber.

 

I don't want to get to hung up on the PK argument because it was meant to illustrate a point rather than the point itself. The point is that. there are various factors that affect a riders scoring and the exact cause is not always obvious to those in the stands.

 

As I said before, you make some fair points and I wouldn't say you are wrong but equally wouldn't say you are right. there are a variety of possibilities that those on the outside can only speculate on.

[INCOGNITO]

A few things posted on here need putting to bed.

 

Tai rode in the Gorzow GP this year and scored 18 points on a bike he used every week at Monmore Green in 2014 so hardly sub standard equipment.

 

 

Britain holds no appeal to most of the top riders so why not blame Pedersen for coming back as he lives in England or Hancock for not riding here. The wages in Poland for these riders is in another level and one ride there can be the same as a high score here.

 

 

Kasprzak has been reported in saying he wants to race in England again but where does it say with Wolverhampton ?

 

 

 

One big league at Premier League standard looks like the best option and if it means no more GP standard riders and more young riders then so be it.

 

 

Will be interesting what some Swedes do when there is a clash of Thursday night matches ?

[orion]

 

Tai was getting beat by second strings for a spell in Sweden this year, resulted in him getting rid of his mechanic there.

 

Again, it doesn't make the tiniest bit of difference what you are doing in another country, on different tracks, different equipment, with different back up teams.

 

Andreas Jonsson this year is 9th in Swedish Averages, averaging nearly 9.. in Poland he's averaging 5.5 and way down the list.

 

The issue with Tai in 2014 at Wolves was he simply wasn't gating, at all. Most of his points were earned the hard way.. now if he wasn't trying and didn't want to risk getting injured, that isn't the way to go about it. Far easier and safer to just make the gate and go. He had very heavy crashes twice for Wolves, once at Leicester at the start of the year, later on against Eastbourne.... hardly the actions of someone who is just taking it easy.

 

What happens, as E I has alluded too is, you have a few bad races, in the new format there are hardly any 'easy pickings' races, so those bad races can pile up. You then start to make changes to your setup that perhaps may not even be needed.. they don't work.. you change more and before you know it you can be in a far worse situation than you were to start with. That can be compounded if you haven't got the best of teams working with you.

 

Even Emil Sayfutdinov is 2pts lower in Poland this year than in Sweden.. Top of the averages with ease in Sweden, only 12th in Poland. Was he not trying in Poland then??

More poor examples ...AJ is from Sweden so expect him to do better in his homeland ...unlike Tai who in his homeland in a much weaker league had a massive drop ..as has been said before when you were beating the top riders all over the world you hardly likely to be worried by a format that makes you take on Batch and Watt on a Monday night on your own track ..so with respect in tai case it makes a massive difference what he was doing elsewhere as most of the Wolves fans on this topic have said .

Edited October 13, 2015 by orion