Rolling, Moving And Jumping At The Start

[SCB]

Except it's not cheating because there is no such rule!

[HenryW]

Except it's not cheating because there is no such rule!

I really hope Havvy has been informed of this. I want to hear what happens when he asks the referee to quote the rule number he is using next time a rider is pulled back for a jump start!

[Ghostwalker]

Anticipating the start is cheating.

A rider may just sneak under the tape but has dropped the clutch before the tapes has been released.

Ghostwalker mentioned the norm for reaction time being 0.29 miliseconds. Dropping the clutch before that is cheating as it is outside human possibilties to be that quick.

 

no, I wrote response time. Simple reaction is closer to 200ms. So basically what we have is;

1. Magnets starts to move
2. The eyes will detect movement
3. Signal goes from eyes to brain
4. Brain will process the signal and realize that the magnets are moving
5. Brain will send signal to the fingers to release the clutch handle
6. fingers will release the clutch handle
7. clutch handle will travel to full drag / completely released
8. back wheel will start to spin
9. bike will start to move.

I don't how long the sum of the above is but it is the time that should be measured and made a rule of together with transponders (after testing)

transponder provider examples: https://www.mylaps.com/en/x2 http://www.tagheuer-timing.com/en/transponder-transponder http://www.finishlynx.com/sv/packages/motorsports-high-speed-timing-systems/

 

The transponders can also be used to determine who crossed the line first during close finishes.

 

[Trees]

Let them roll and bang the tapes like they did back in the day

No bloody way .....

[Marcelle]

Personally I'd let em move, If the tapes go up and they're moving backwards tough!..if they touch the tapes they're out, no arguing...no reserve or 15 metres.

[SCB]

Personally I'd let em move, If the tapes go up and they're moving backwards tough!..if they touch the tapes they're out, no arguing...no reserve or 15 metres.

Which is basically what the rules say.

[SPEEDY69]

Unless the rules have changed, they say that once they are at the tapes under green light they must remain stationary - couldn't be clearer than that. For me, the punishment for moving is simple - disqualification. After a while there wouldn't be many chancing their arm. If the rider moves after the tapes have gone up then let it go. If they make a quicker reaction or whatever the ref should not be pulling those ones back. Nielsen, Wiltshire, Doncaster are three I remember who regularly reacted quicker than others.

Edited September 5, 2015 by SPEEDY69

[E I Addio]

One of the things that hack me off is when a Rider with quick reflexes makes a very fast start and is then pulled back for infringing the Starting Rules - in my opinion that is wrong.

 

As it happens I also have some sympathy for those who try to anticipate the Start too. They gamble - if they touch the Tapes they are off 15 metres - if they don't they are away and good luck to them. The whole point being that they can win or lose on that gamble.

the duties of the start Marshall include assisting the referee to have a fair and equal start. If someone is able to jump the start it might be technically within the rules but it is not an equal start. The public pay to see good racing. We get enough processional meetings as it is but if a rider, especially EL standard is "away" as you put it, the race is over as soon as soon has begun.

 

The other thing is that if a rider has a twitchy clutch hand and moves it often causes another rider to jump and touch the tapes so we get another delay. Speedwáy is a sprint. I can't think of any other form of sprinting either motorised or in athletics where jumping the start is acceptable.

[stratton]

If a rider touches the tapes he gets punished,if he makes a great start( maybe he guesses? or he just has great reflexes) he gets pulled back.The rule the referee in charge cannot have it both ways, this year it seems to me the referees are more interested in catching the riders out than whacking the tapes up and away with the action.Most riders who have rolled or anticipated the start over the years often penalise themselves which evens itself out if you don't touch the tapes you have done nothing wrong in my book.

[SCB]

Unless the rules have changed, they say that once they are at the tapes under green light they must remain stationary - couldn't be clearer than that. For me, the punishment for moving is simple - disqualification. After a while there wouldn't be many chancing their arm. If the rider moves after the tapes have gone up then let it go. If they make a quicker reaction or whatever the ref should not be pulling those ones back. Nielsen, Wiltshire, Doncaster are three I remember who regularly reacted quicker than others.

The rules have changed. As thats not what they say at all. I can't find it and I set people the challenge a few days ago and nobody has been able to find it either. Riders just have to be lined up, stationary etc until the start marshal walks away and the green light comes on - technically, at that point they can do what they like.

 

Theres also nothing in the rules that says a rider can be excluded for jumping numerous times. Quite simply a starting offense is, "if any part of the motorcycle touches or breaks the tapes after the Green Starting Light has been displayed is considered a Starting Offence"

Edited September 5, 2015 by SCB

[Robert Lee]

Why not just make riders start closer to the tapes then those riders who are anticipating the start will be hitting the tapes far more often.

Exactly. Most of the problems arise through poor marshalling at the start. Do refs confer with start marshals and explain the rules to them before or during the match?

Seems to be a consensus on this: Start marshals should be better (a barrier of some type behind the rear wheels would help), refs should stop interfering, the only startline offence should be hitting the tapes and the penalty should be exclusion, no second chance. Why can't the SCB or whoever controls the refs see it?

 

By the way, if those were the rules, Sergeant would be on about a 10 point average, he very rarely hits the tapes.

[BangerBoy]

the duties of the start Marshall include assisting the referee to have a fair and equal start. If someone is able to jump the start it might be technically within the rules but it is not an equal start. The public pay to see good racing. We get enough processional meetings as it is but if a rider, especially EL standard is "away" as you put it, the race is over as soon as soon has begun.

 

The other thing is that if a rider has a twitchy clutch hand and moves it often causes another rider to jump and touch the tapes so we get another delay. Speedwáy is a sprint. I can't think of any other form of sprinting either motorised or in athletics where jumping the start is acceptable.

If you jump the start in speedway then you've touched or broken the tapes then

[SPEEDY69]

Unless the rules have changed, they say that once they are at the tapes under green light they must remain stationary - couldn't be clearer than that. For me, the punishment for moving is simple - disqualification. After a while there wouldn't be many chancing their arm. If the rider moves after the tapes have gone up then let it go. If they make a quicker reaction or whatever the ref should not be pulling those ones back. Nielsen, Wiltshire, Doncaster are three I remember who regularly reacted quicker than others.

 

The rules have changed. As thats not what they say at all. I can't find it and I set people the challenge a few days ago and nobody has been able to find it either. Riders just have to be lined up, stationary etc until the start marshal walks away and the green light comes on - technically, at that point they can do what they like.

 

Theres also nothing in the rules that says a rider can be excluded for jumping numerous times. Quite simply a starting offense is, "if any part of the motorcycle touches or breaks the tapes after the Green Starting Light has been displayed is considered a Starting Offence"

 

No wonder there's so much inconsistency! There's also been more than one exclusion for moving this year, sometimes in the same race as someone else touches the tapes. It should be a simple sport - no moving at all or excluded would be clear.

[PHILIPRISING]

The rules have changed. As thats not what they say at all. I can't find it and I set people the challenge a few days ago and nobody has been able to find it either. Riders just have to be lined up, stationary etc until the start marshal walks away and the green light comes on - technically, at that point they can do what they like.

 

Theres also nothing in the rules that says a rider can be excluded for jumping numerous times. Quite simply a starting offense is, "if any part of the motorcycle touches or breaks the tapes after the Green Starting Light has been displayed is considered a Starting Offence"

THAT may well be the case but can only reiterate that at SGP rider briefings referees will invariably confirm that riders must remain stationary until the tapes go up and not when the green light comes on ...

[SCB]

THAT may well be the case but can only reiterate that at SGP rider briefings referees will invariably confirm that riders must remain stationary until the tapes go up and not when the green light comes on ...

GPs are different rules. Luckily for James Sarjeant he doesn't ride in the GPs or the SWC yet!

[Tsunami]

 

 

No wonder there's so much inconsistency! There's also been more than one exclusion for moving this year, sometimes in the same race as someone else touches the tapes. It should be a simple sport - no moving at all or excluded would be clear.

There is no inconsistency, except the judgement of the referee in each case. There are guidelines to refs who have to try and ensure a fair and equal start. Every instances of how to achieve that, and all the other guidelines of explanation of the other racing rules, would make the rule book multiply the rule book several times in size. And guess who would then lead the mob complaining about the rules book being too big to understand. This is a non issue, consistency of the ref is the real issue.

[waiheke1]

It wouldn't be a hard rule to change.

"After the green light goes on Riders must remain stationery until the tapes rise. A rider who moves without touching the tapes will be warned by the referee. A second offence will result in an exclusion."

Tidy that up a bit. Makes more sense than enforcing a rule which is not in the rule book.

[Ghostwalker]

It wouldn't be a hard rule to change.

"After the green light goes on Riders must remain stationery until the tapes rise. A rider who moves without touching the tapes will be warned by the referee. A second offence will result in an exclusion."

Tidy that up a bit. Makes more sense than enforcing a rule which is not in the rule book.

 

It should rather be after the 2 min expired.... if you move after the 2min expired then you are not ready and thus you should get excluded for not being ready to start.

It is also specified in the Swedish rules that a rider have to stand still or it's a bit poorly formulated (rule 2.6: Starten):

 

När sedan domaren anser att förarna är klara och står stilla skall han tända den gröna lampan, vilken markerar att starten kommer att ske inom några sekunder.

 

Basically "the referee shall start the heat when he considers the riders to be standing still."

 

So the rules should be that when the 2min expires the riders have to be ready and be stationary with the front wheel 10cm from the tapes.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Ghostwalker

[PHILIPRISING]

 

So the rules should be that when the 2min expires the riders have to be ready and be stationary with the front wheel 10cm from the tapes.

WHICH is how they are applied in the SGP but as the meeting progresses and the grooves appear referees will become more lenient as to 10cm from the tapes

Edited September 7, 2015 by PHILIPRISING

[Humphrey Appleby]

Once again though - it comes down to Cost.

If the Promoters have to spend money, they will not have it. In the current Financial Climate with Austerity and everything - I, for one, find it hard to blame them....

 

Despite what Philippe might claim, a transponder system is not hugely expensive and is well within the capabilities of the SGP, if not every speedway track.