E I Addio Posted September 3, 2015 Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 the rule says the start marshal has to line them up etc. NOT the rider has to line up..... So the rule doesn't apply to the rider. He is free to move as much as he likes. I think the Plain English Society might have trouble with tha interpretation. The rule referring to the start marshall says "Once satisfied the riders are correctly positioned........" Logically if they move after that they are not correctly positioned. Not the best worded rule ever but the spirit of the rule is clear. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric i Posted September 3, 2015 Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 Why not just make riders start closer to the tapes then those riders who are anticipating the start will be hitting the tapes far more often. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pvm Posted September 3, 2015 Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 My pet hate, regarding the tapes, is when the tapes are so slack, there is a noticeable difference in the speed they rise. Last year I watched one meeting on Sky, the one where Stuart Robson was accused of jumping, On one occasion Stuart was caught, the tapes nearest the magnets were almost shoulder height before the middle part of the tapes had moved. It happens quite often, a rider in gate 2 or 3 who watches the magnets release can appear to "Jump", when in fact they haven't. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_Jones Posted September 3, 2015 Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 Why not just make riders start closer to the tapes then those riders who are anticipating the start will be hitting the tapes far more often. They'd just roll back first as they do now. In my experience it's very rare to see a 'legal' start with all four riders within 75mm of the tapes. Start marshals usually give up and just accept the ref's offer of a green light with riders at random distances from the tapes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted September 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 I think the Plain English Society might have trouble with tha interpretation.The rule referring to the start marshall says "Once satisfied the riders are correctly positioned........" Logically if they move after that they are not correctly positioned. Not the best worded rule ever but the spirit of the rule is clear. I agree it's a terribly worded rule. But all the rules say is a rider has to be station and correctly positioned for the start marshall. Nothing about what they have to do once he has move. It should state somewhere riders have to remain stationary until the tapes are released. Using your interpretation, the rider have to sit there forever and should never move as there is nothing to say they can move once the tapes have gone up For what is a pretty crucial part of the the race, the rules are terribly vague. Why not just make riders start closer to the tapes then those riders who are anticipating the start will be hitting the tapes far more often. That still wouldn't stop riders guessing and jumping (a la Sarjeant) and only the rolling (a la Kildemand, Hans) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric i Posted September 3, 2015 Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 They'd just roll back first as they do now. In my experience it's very rare to see a 'legal' start with all four riders within 75mm of the tapes. Start marshals usually give up and just accept the ref's offer of a green light with riders at random distances from the tapes. I agree the start marshaIs often don't start the riders within the 75mm but I don't think riders roll back much, if the rule was 40mm I think they would have to start closer to the tapes. There is nothing to lose by changing the rule. I agree it's a terribly worded rule. But all the rules say is a rider has to be station and correctly positioned for the start marshall. Nothing about what they have to do once he has move. It should state somewhere riders have to remain stationary until the tapes are released. Using your interpretation, the rider have to sit there forever and should never move as there is nothing to say they can move once the tapes have gone up For what is a pretty crucial part of the the race, the rules are terribly vague. That still wouldn't stop riders guessing and jumping (a la Sarjeant) and only the rolling (a la Kildemand, Hans) No it wouldn't stop a perfectly anticipated start like Sarjeant's last night, but I think Sarjeant would hit the tapes far more often if he had to start closer to the tapes, this may cause him to adjust his starting behaviour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted September 3, 2015 Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 Why not just make riders start closer to the tapes then those riders who are anticipating the start will be hitting the tapes far more often. QUITE often talked about at SGP rider briefings ... riders tell referee that as the meeting progresses and the ruts get deeper it is impossible to be right at the tapes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screm Posted September 3, 2015 Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 Riders trying to cheat the starts has gone on for years, in fact years ago it was allowed and certain riders of the day took full advantage. What gets me is that certain riders seem to be warned time and time again during meeting yet very seldom suffer an exclusion. Would it not be better for all referees to warn all riders prior to the meetings that any movement at the tapes will lead to an exclusion, might not cut it out but would IMO reduce it, at the very least we wouldn't get some of the scenes we had at Coventry last night and the sport would be the better for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric i Posted September 3, 2015 Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 QUITE often talked about at SGP rider briefings ... riders tell referee that as the meeting progresses and the ruts get deeper it is impossible to be right at the tapes. The riders want the best possible start and so position the wheel at the back of the rut. I have never ridden a speedway bike, but I doubt its impossible to be right at the tapes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted September 3, 2015 Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 if the rest of the sports world have technology to detect those who react to quickly, why can't speedway also have that? The mean human response time for visual stimuli is about 290milliseconds . Imo develop a system with transponders which will detect if anyone is moving when the green light is on and if any rider is reacting too quickly. I think a transponder system is the only way to truly separate good starts from chance starts and rolling starts. Until such system is in place there will be rolling starts and chance starts that will be unnoticed and there will be good starts that will be called back. Imo stricter marshalling would also reduce the likeliness of rolling starts succeeding. If the riders are forced (exclude anyone not obeying) to have front wheel 2 cm from the tapes then it will be harder to roll since if they do they will do a T/T. Also when it comes to 2min exclusions/gardening. If the referees actually would start to enforce 2min violations then the riders would adjust and actually making sure that they are ready when the 2 min expires = problem solved. 2 min is 120 seconds not 121 or 123 seconds and neither is it 118 seconds. They can do as much gardening as they like as long as they are ready with the front wheel at the tapes when those 120 seconds are up. Once again though - it comes down to Cost. If the Promoters have to spend money, they will not have it. In the current Financial Climate with Austerity and everything - I, for one, find it hard to blame them.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BangerBoy Posted September 3, 2015 Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 The ref's just want to be the star of the show. Get the rule back to "Touch the tapes and you're out." Whether it's your wheel or helmet YOU'RE OUT. HEAR HEAR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted September 3, 2015 Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 So those slagging off Havvy for defending James Sarjeant are wrong then and Havvy is right to defend his rider. Sarjeant is breaking no rules by rolling and jumping. EL Grand Final, last race. Poole need a heat win to beat Coventry. Holder gets a massive flier after pulling a huge roller at the gate. No doubt Havelock would defend that, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted September 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 EL Grand Final, last race. Poole need a heat win to beat Coventry. Holder gets a massive flier after pulling a huge roller at the gate. No doubt Havelock would defend that, too. As long as Sarj has been allowed to do it all meeting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted September 3, 2015 Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 The riders want the best possible start and so position the wheel at the back of the rut. I have never ridden a speedway bike, but I doubt its impossible to be right at the tapes. You cant have the bike parked in a very deep rut, it will bottom out on the exhaust so the rider either has to start from a different part of the track or move to the back of the rut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shale Searcher Posted September 3, 2015 Report Share Posted September 3, 2015 Why not have a bar on the track behind the wheels, all riders have to have their rear wheels in contact with it until the tapes rise....? Can't roll back because of the bar, can't roll forward, they will touch the tapes..... Sorted for less than the price of a couple of tyres!! Unless an ex rider sticks his nickname on it!!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*JJ Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 Why not have a bar on the track behind the wheels, all riders have to have their rear wheels in contact with it until the tapes rise....? Can't roll back because of the bar, can't roll forward, they will touch the tapes..... Sorted for less than the price of a couple of tyres!! Unless an ex rider sticks his nickname on it!!! I remember something similar being tried at Birmingham years ago - it was a thick rope which was placed behind the back wheels. The result was that the riders fought and struggled to get the back wheel over the rope to do their backing and filling. Whatever method is tried, the riders will have to be forced to co-operate, by means of exclusions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric i Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 You cant have the bike parked in a very deep rut, it will bottom out on the exhaust so the rider either has to start from a different part of the track or move to the back of the rut I agree, they can't start in a deep rut but there is always room to start from a different part of the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 One of the things that hack me off is when a Rider with quick reflexes makes a very fast start and is then pulled back for infringing the Starting Rules - in my opinion that is wrong. As it happens I also have some sympathy for those who try to anticipate the Start too. They gamble - if they touch the Tapes they are off 15 metres - if they don't they are away and good luck to them. The whole point being that they can win or lose on that gamble. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 Anticipating the start is cheating. A rider may just sneak under the tape but has dropped the clutch before the tapes has been released. Ghostwalker mentioned the norm for reaction time being 0.29 miliseconds. Dropping the clutch before that is cheating as it is outside human possibilties to be that quick. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 Anticipating the start is cheating. A rider may just sneak under the tape but has dropped the clutch before the tapes has been released. Ghostwalker mentioned the norm for reaction time being 0.29 miliseconds. Dropping the clutch before that is cheating as it is outside human possibilties to be that quick. Yep, and it happens, and is punished, in the sprint events at National level, where the reaction time is electronically measured. Why should it not be punished in Speedway as well. It is punished, cos it is cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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